At-any-moment return of Christ?

[Grasshopper]

After 2000 years, the fig tree of Israel put out its new shoots in 1948. There was no sign of activity before, in that long winter of the dispersion. Suddenly, in 1948, the nation of Israel was born in a day, in fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8.

Barnes on Is. 66:8

In looking for the fulfillment of this, we naturally turn the attention to the rapid progress of the gospel in the times of the apostles, when events occurred as sudden and as remarkable as if the earth, after the desolation of winter or of a drought, should be covered with rich luxuriance in a day, or as if a whole nation should start into existence, mature in all its institutions, in a moment.

Jesus went on to say, in Luke 21:32, "Verily, I say unto you, this generation [the generation which sees the fig tree put out its new shoots] will by no means pass away until all these things are fulfilled."

Yes, it was to the generation to which Jesus was speaking. And they did in fact see all those events.

Luke says the fig tree and all the other trees:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees ;

So who are all the other trees? Will they come into their land as well?


If the fig tree is to always represent Israel then what about this:

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever . And presently the fig tree withered away.

 

[Helen]

I do not see where the fig tree is always to represent Israel, do you? However, when symbolism is being referred to, the Bible does indicate that the fig tree is symbolic of Israel.

OldRegular, please tell me, then what the Lord Himself means in Jeremiah 31:35-36 (which I just saw, by the way, when looking up 'sea' for that post):

"This is what the Lord says,
he who appoints the sun to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar --
the Lord Almighty is his name:
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the Lord
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."

Or what about Isaiah 46:3-4 and even to the end of the chapter:
"Listen to me, O house of Jacob,
all you who remain of the house of Israel,
you whom I have upheld since you were conceived,
and have carried since your birth.
Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and will rescue you.
...Remember this, fix it in mind
take it to heart, ou rebels.
Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am god, and there is none like me.
I ake known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
...Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted,
you who are far from righteousness.
I am bringing my righteousness near,
it is not far away;
and my salvation will not be delayed.
I will grant salvation to Zion,
my splendor to Israel."

In Isaiah 49, starting with verse 14, we read

"But Zion said, 'The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.'
'Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget, I will not forget you!
See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
Your sons hasten back, and those who laid you waste depart from you.
Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your sons gather and come to you.
As sure as I live, declares the Lord, you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.
Though you were ruined and made desolate and your land laid waste,
now you will be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.

...See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

...Then you will know that I am the Lord;
those who hope in me will not be disappointed."

Romans 9:6 simply says that not all who are descended from Israel ARE Israel. It does not say Israel will be replaced.

When Paul says, a bit later "it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring," he is explicitely stating in the next verse that he is defining Abraham's offspring as through Isaac and not through either Ishmael or any later children of Abraham. Thus he is defining Israel, not eliminating or replacing it.

 

[OldRegular]

I thought we were talking about the anymoment return but consider the following:

Matthew 21:37-45, KJV
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Scripture teaches that the kingdom was taken from the Jews by no less that God Himself. Now show me in Scripture where that judgment has been revoked.

 

[Helen]

The Jews had been entrusted with the Law of God and the rules of the theocracy. They blew it royally.

The kingdom was taken from them. But that does not erase who they are or that God will never forget them or stop loving them, or that they are and always will be Israel.

Please note what Paul writes in Romans 11:

"For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
..."I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has epxerienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. and so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
'The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.'"

 

[Mel Miller]

Helen and OldRegular,

Helen, you are the best yet in pointing to
the least understood part of God's Plan for His "former" people when their King returns.

I think OldRegular is fully aware of Luke's
story of the King's return to destroy His enemies when a remnant of at least 5 Million
Jews will "mourn" and suddenly come to realize
that "their kingdom is near" for the first
time in their recorded history.

Since Luke does not refer to the Elect in his
accounts of the Olivet Discourse, I believe he
is referring to the Tribes of Israel (and also
of Ishmael) who will "mourn" when they see
Zech.12:10 (Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7) fulfilled
before their eyes.

The Descendants of Ishmael, part of the family
of Abraham, in whom God's blessing has yet to be fulfilled, will share with Israel the "mercy which God promises to ALL in Rom.11:32-33.

Helen, have you noticed that this promise
cannot be fulfilled until ALL of Israel has
been saved? This is an astounding element of
God's plan that requires the restoratin of
Israel as God's People once again and an "everlasting Kingdom inherited ON THE EARTH". Matt.25:32-34; Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.

Mel Miller Junior Member www.lastday.net

 

[OldRegular]

Helen,

A question: Has the deliverer come from Zion?

 

[Helen]

Yes, the deliverer has come from Zion, but godlessness has not yet been turned away from Jacob.

The first part is finished. The second is still to come.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Helen:
Yes, the deliverer has come from Zion, but godlessness has not yet been turned away from Jacob.

The first part is finished. The second is still to come.

The premillennial doctrine, whether pre trib or post trib, concedes that there will be sin during the so-called millennial kingdom.

Therefore godlessness will turn from Jacob and all others away only when:
1. Jesus Christ returns in the Power and Glory of the Godhead!
2. All the dead, both the saved and the unsaved, are resurrected, a general resurrection!
3. All stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment!
4. Satan and all the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire!
5. The New Heavens and Earth are created!
6. The tabernacle of God is with man!

 

[Mel Miller]

Helen and OldRegular,

Helen wrote that the:
"Deliverer has come from Zion, but godlessness has not yet been turned away from Jacob. The first part is finished. The 2nd still to come".

OldRegular agrees that this will occur when
"Jesus Christ returns in Power and Glory"!

But then He assumes, because sin continues in
the Millennium, the "turning of Jacob away from sin" cannot occur until "All the dead, saved and unsaved, are resurrected" after a Millennium that ENDS, not that STARTS, at the 2nd Advent!

What he overlooks is that the 1000-Year reward to ALL the Martyrs coming out of the great tribulation cannot begin until God raises them
from the dead and avenges their blood and then
returns them to heaven to begin "serving God in
the Temple day and night and will reign with Christ for 1000 years". Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

The reason the 1000 years is mentioned here for the first time is that it applies strictly to
the Martyrs who alone receive the reward that
is promised in Rev.3:12 to the Church!!

This reward will be fulfilled day and night for 1000 years in heaven prior to the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven because there will be "no temple and no day nor night therein" only when the 1000 years "should be finished".

The use of the Aorist Subjunctive here prevents
the end of the 1000-year reign until "Satan has
been bound (Aorist Indicative) for 1000 years"!

The only possible explanation for John's sudden switch from the Indicative to the Subjunctive
tense is that Satan's binding is a done deal as
of the 2nd Advent; but being "loosed from the
Abyss" requires that he will be bound thereafter
until the 1000 years "should be finishe".

Mel Miller Junior Member www.lastday.net






Helen, please note the "timing" for Messiah to
come "out of Zion" is restricted to the 2nd
Advent; that "All" Israel will be saved *after* the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

The quote by Paul is from Isaiah 59:20-21 where He is coming "to Zion to those in Jacob who turn
from their transgression". That did not happen
at the first Advent.

The Covenant here referred to is "everlasting"
so that "God's word will not depart from the
offspring of their offsprings from then and
forever".

This is the part overlooked by OldRegular and
which Paul supports by stating that "His mercy
will be shown to the Jews only after He has
concluded both Gentiles and Jews in a state of
disobedience in ORDER to have mercy on ALL".

 

[OldRegular]

Miller

Your problem is that you are completely wrong concerning end time events.

 

[Helen]

OK, this is four pages now and has really degenerated.

I am waiting for the Lord's call. That's the sum and substance of where I am regarding the topic of the thread.

 

[LadyEagle]

Me, too, Helen. Waiting for the sound of the trumpet. See you in the air, Helen.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Romans 11:25-26 seems difficult for us to understand what it is all talking about.

First, the context of Romans chapter 11 talking about salvation.

Does God forsake people(Jews)? No. He never forsake them. He still promise to his people for the salvation. This is the covenant, that He already promised to Abraham of Genesis chapter 12.

Jews are part of the tree(Israel). It is not speak of flesh, but spiritual.

Genesis chapter 12 is not talking about flesh or nation, it is talking about spiritual with the promise of salvation which through Jesus Christ. Neither Genesis 12 focus on Jews only. Genesis 12 is speak of the world, that Christ died for the whole world according to 1 John 2:2.

God removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief- Romans 11:19-20. But, Jews, who are remain on the same tree, because of their faith. This is speak of their spiritual, not physical or nation, but their spiritual of salvation.

God removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief. God added Gentiles unto the tree join with believing Jews together, which are in Christ Jesus.

'Israel' of Romans 11:25 is not talking about physical or nation, it is talk about God's citizenship relate as salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:25 doesn't suggest, that there shall be re-establish of the covenent with Jews at the second coming FOR the 'millennial kingdom'. This verse tells us, about the RESULT of Gentiles and Jews both are reconciled together into one which are through in Jesus Christ according Ephesians chapter 2 by through Calvary.

To my understanding of Romans 11:25 interprets of 'And SO all Israel shall be saved' means: SO, that all PEOPLE shall be saved. Israel simple means God's people-either Jew or Gentile whosoever believeth in Christ, are God's elect.

I have study on Genesis 32:28 about 'Israel'. I found Genesis 32:28 have a refer verse. I am sure that most of you might not agree with me. I found there is a refer verse of Genesis 32:28, finds in Matt. 16:18-19. I realized there are three important keys for Israel & Church on the comparing of Genesis 32:28 & Matt. 16:18-19. I think, many Christians seem not get it what Christ said to Peter about Church, also, as what Christ told to Jacob about his name.

First, when Christ wrestled with Jacob, He asked Jacob, what's his name? Jacob told Him, 'Jacob'. Then, He told him, his name 'Jacob' no more, his name changed to 'Israel'. My understanding the meaning of Israel as what Christ said to him.

Let's read Genesis 32:28 as what Christ told Jacob: "...Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but 'Israel' (Why? The meaning of Israel explains-) FOR as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Israle means, God given His power to His people, and they shall be successful or victory.

'Men' of Gensis 32:28 does not saying, they are 'Jews'. ALSO, it does not always focus on males, neither it saying, women are excluded from Israel. 'Men' means, people. Even, it doesn't saying, Gentiles are excluded from Israel either.

I find Matt. 16:18-19 have refer with Genesis 32:28. How do I know? There are three important key words as what Christ told Peter.

Christ said to Peter, "...That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

There are three important key words of Matt. 16:18-19: 1. church 2. prevail 3. keys.

To my understanding of Matt. 16:18 - "I will build my church", means, Christ will build his PEOPLE. Church is not building, neither it is a religion. It means people. Christ doesn't saying church is for the Jews only. Church is for everyone whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ.

My understanding of 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' Means, Satan, and the world cannot destroy God's people.

Why? Christ answered of Matt 16:19- "And I will give unto thee the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven..." Word, 'keys', they do not take into literal or physical. But it speaks of spiritual meaning. Christ told Peter, that He promised him, that He shall give the power to him, and his people to spread the gospel over the world.

Matt. 28:18-20- Christ told them, He shall give the POWER to his people, to spread the gospel over the world.

Acts 1:8 - Christ told them, that they shall receive the power from the above, to spread the gospel over the world.

Israel of Genesis 32:28 means, Christ gives the power to His people, and shall have victory.

Church of Matt. 16:18-19 means, Christ gives the power to His people, and they shall have victory.

Both Church & Israel are same meaning. By the way, I am NOT 'Replacement Theology'. Church does NOT replaced Israel. Christ already built his church thousands years before Calvary! Church in Greek word- 'Ekklesia' means, called out, or congregation.

Abraham was already part of the church in his time, because he was called out by the Lord. Just same as we are called out by Christ, for to be spearated from the world.

Israel of the New Testament is not a physical nation, or for the Jews only. Israel of the New Testament is a spiritual family of God, both Jew & Gentile whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ, are God's people.

Romans 11:25 explains when the result of Calvary, both Gentiles and Jews are all saved because of Jesus Christ already came out of Zion, the deliver to forgived all our sins away.

Zion of Romans 11:25 is speaks of heaven also, New Jerusalem. Christ came out of the heaven, came to earth, and he died on the cross for our sins. That's how Christ saved us, and already make reconciled both Jews and Gentiles unity into ONE body of Christ - Ephesians chapter 2.

Notice next verse - Romans 11:27 says that Christ already make the covenant with us, that He shall take our sins away, as he already fulfilled it of Matt. 26:27-28 & Daniel 9:27 by through Calvary by His blood.

By the way, Matt. 26:29 - "until THAT DAY when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom", does not saying, that Christ shall not drink it again with us TILL the "millennial kingdom" comes. Because Christ doesn't saying it is 'a thousand years'. Matt. 26:29 speaks of the second coming, and He shall bring an eternality kingdom upon earth, everything will be all new according to Romans 8:19-23.

The main idea of Romans chapter 11 focus on SALVATION for everyone because of the result of calvary. Romans chapter 11 does not discuss about millennial kingdom, because this passage doesn't saying 'a thousand years'. Romans 11:25-27 speak of our currently result because of the Calvary. Right now, more and more Gentiles are continuing adding unto the tree join with believeing Jews, even, many Jews are continue become saved and are adding unto the tree too. SO, all Israel shall be saved will be completed shall be at the second coming. Right now. Christ is still built his people, as he is continuing adding more people join into his family daily since early church history to today, and he will finish it at the second coming.

I hope that you understand what Apostle Paul was talking about of Romans chapter 11.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Miller

Your problem is that you are completely wrong concerning end time events.

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If you'll notice, the trib period is the last week of Daniel's 70 week prophecy, and it's at the "END" of the "SIX DAYS" and it's conducted under the "law and prophet" system of the OT, even OT "prophets", Elijah/Moses, the Two witnesses.

The "SEVENTH DAY" is the "LORD'S DAY", much like we say "SUNDAY" is the LORD'S DAY", Scripture refer to it as the "DAY OF THE LORD", and "WHERE" is Jesus during this time period, Here on earth, "IN JERUASLEM".

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

The "DAY OF THE LORD" is when the "Messiah" comes to "Jerusalem", This has already occurred once, but they didn't know the "DAY" of their "Visitation", so the temple was "destroyed".

But the real "TEMPLE" is one not made with "hands", "JESUS'S BODY" (and ours) so when Jesus returns, the "TEMPLE OF GOD" (Jesus) will be "ON EARTH", the "Literal "New Jerusalem" doesn't descend on this old earth but the "NEW EARTH".

This "EARTH" and "everything" "ON/IN" it is "pattern" after something "Spiritual".

The "seven day week" we use is God's plan for the earth, and we are "AT THE END".

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

Exodus 23:12 have do nothing with the second advent & the end times event. This is talking about God's command to His people that they must rest on the seventh day. It is speaks of sabbath. Because God created heaven and earth in 6 days, and on the seventh day, God done it.

2 Peter 3:8 does not suggest that Christ shall come on the sixth day as after 6,000 years of humankind era history passed. This verse speaks of the day of the Lord shall come so very quickly. In our sight 1,000 years seem so tooooo long to us. But, in the Lord's sight, 1000 years is toooo short time for Him like as one day. Our time is much different from God's time. Also, 2 Peter 3:8 have do nothing with 'millennial kingdom'. This verse speaks about the day of the Lord, that Christ shall come LIKE AS THIEF, shows us, how quickly the day of the Lord shall be at the coming of the Lord.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Helen]

Dear Me4Him,

When the Masoretic text was translated in about 100 AD, for whatever reason, a number of times in Genesis 5 and 11 the cipher for 100 was dropped. However, it was based on this translation that Ussher got his timing of the world's age.

But if we go back to texts translated long before that, the Alexandrian Septuagint or the Samaritan text, we find that, for instance, Adam did not have Seth at 130 years old, but at 230 years old.

When all these original ages are added up, the earth is about 8000 years old now, not about 6000. This 'older' age brings into line, as well, the historical Egyptian, Sumerian, and Chinese dates of their ancient civilizations and we find there is no discrepancy with what the Bible is telling us -- none of them 'predate' the Flood.

The concept that one day is as a thousand years is simply telling us that God can do in a short amount of time what man considers would take a long amount of time -- and that is exactly what we see in the argument the evolutionists present -- that it all must have taken a very long time.

God says "not so."

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Helen,

Well saying! Amen.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

How long is the ""MILL REIGN", 1000 years, and what is it, the "SEVENTH DAY",

"WHY" should the "Seventh day" be a 1000 years and the other six days "shorter/longer"???

"HELEN"

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

The same "pattern" of days described for the "Beginning" is also the same "pattern" described for the "END".

Regardless of what you have read, (And I have the genealogy given by scripture) Jesus was born and crucified "in the evening" of the "FOURTH DAY", (Moses lamb, tenth-fourteenth, Four days)

Jesus even waited until the "FOURTH DAY" before "resurrecting Lazarus", foreshadowing his appearence in the "FOURTH DAY".

Most of what Jesus said/done, "points" to prophecy.

Follow this link for the "Rest of the story".

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

[Helen]

OK, I won't pay any attention then to what the early Christians wrote about this. I won't pay any attention to the fact that the translation made by the Hebrews themselves before Christ says something different. I won't pay any attention to anything but a translation which doesn't even match up with the quotes Jesus and the authors of the NT used.

That's the correct way, right?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but our efforts to put God into a box so we can understand His timing and His way of going are useless. If Jesus Himself did not know the time, what makes you think anyone else is smarter?

 

[rozy]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Me, too, Helen. Waiting for the sound of the trumpet. See you in the air, Helen.

Makes me want to hear Vestal Goodman singing The Meeting in the Air.