At odds about Christmas

[percho]

Ya'll I'm not trying to stir up anything just creating thoughts.

 

[Luke2427]

I know this topic has probably been raised before, but I really feel ambivalent about celebrating Christmas this year, especially because of its pagan roots and commercial emphasis. What are your opinions on why we should or shouldn't and is there an alternative way to celebrate while simultaneously not compromising?:saint:

Love the avatar- precious. I have five.

I love Christmas for a lot of reasons but one of which is this:

It WAS a pagan holiday but Christ conquered it. Just like Easter.

Christ was introduced to the holiday in Rome back when pagan worshiped Saturn. At first there was a great deal of compromise but by and by Saturn was altogether forgotten and the world now thinks of Christ on this date.

Pagan roots should not assuage the Christian's love for Christmas. It should actually give him another reason to revel in it.

 

[Aaron]

I know this topic has probably been raised before, but I really feel ambivalent about celebrating Christmas this year, especially because of its pagan roots and commercial emphasis. What are your opinions on why we should or shouldn't and is there an alternative way to celebrate while simultaneously not compromising?:saint:

The pagans didn't have it all wrong. In fact, in most cases, they were mostly right. The Christmas season is a celebration of life and beauty, and the advent of Christ. So far removed from the darkness of paganism, if you weren't told of its pagan roots you would have never suspected them.

But the best argument for its Christian nature? It's banned in the public schools and Target.

 

[webdog]

Christmas a complete man-made holiday to begin with....even celebrating Christ's birth. We are commanded nowhere in Scripture to do so. Some believers act like we are commanded to celebrate it one way over another. I choose to commemorate Christ's birth and do the commercial "santa" thing for the kids and believe I am in good standing with my Lord in doing so.

 

[jaigner]

Hold the phone. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. It was placed on the same days as a pagan holiday. So what?

And if others choose to bastardize the holiday with commercial emphasis, unrest, and hostility, then Christians need to lead by example in the proper celebration of it.

It's a real shame that Baptists have lost the liturgical calendar, which leads us every year through the life of Christ, which we absolutely should be following in our corporate worship. When we celebrate the sacred parts of Christ's life, we can't help but find our union with him strengthened and refreshed. Since Christ is the central figure of all Christian worship, not turkeys or moms and dads or independence or anything else, these events are central to our worship celebrations as well.

And the celebration shouldn't start in November. We shouldn't be hearing Christmas music until the 24th. Advent is one thing, but it's not the same as Christmas. So don't rush the season. Let Advent be Advent and Christmas be Christmas.

If our celebration started more appropriately, then we would probably find we adopt more appropriate methods of remembrance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hold the phone. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. It was placed on the same days as a pagan holiday. So what?

And if others choose to bastardize the holiday with commercial emphasis, unrest, and hostility, then Christians need to lead by example in the proper celebration of it.

It's a real shame that Baptists have lost the liturgical calendar, which leads us every year through the life of Christ, which we absolutely should be following in our corporate worship. When we celebrate the sacred parts of Christ's life, we can't help but find our union with him strengthened and refreshed. Since Christ is the central figure of all Christian worship, not turkeys or moms and dads or independence or anything else, these events are central to our worship celebrations as well.

And the celebration shouldn't start in November. We shouldn't be hearing Christmas music until the 24th. Advent is one thing, but it's not the same as Christmas. So don't rush the season. Let Advent be Advent and Christmas be Christmas.

If our celebration started more appropriately, then we would probably find we adopt more appropriate methods of remembrance.

Dont worry Jaig...... I profess to worshiping Oden, the god of beer...LOL

All hail to the Ale!!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's a real shame that Baptists have lost the liturgical calendar, which leads us every year through the life of Christ, which we absolutely should be following in our corporate worship. When we celebrate the sacred parts of Christ's life, we can't help but find our union with him strengthened and refreshed. Since Christ is the central figure of all Christian worship, not turkeys or moms and dads or independence or anything else, these events are central to our worship celebrations as well.

No no no no. Not liturgical calander! You want us to follow the works of the law? Scripture is clear about this!

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

And look at what Jerimiah says

This is what the LORD says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Thus we are not to take their holiday's and "convert" it into a christian one. We even adorn "christmas tres" with silver and Gold.

 

[jaigner]

Dont worry Jaig...... I profess to worshiping Oden, the god of beer...LOL

All hail to the Ale!!

Nice...not an ale drinker...I stick to pilsner and bourbon....but still like this a lot.

 

[annsni]

No no no no. Not liturgical calander! You want us to follow the works of the law? Scripture is clear about this! And look at what Jerimiah says Thus we are not to take their holiday's and "convert" it into a christian one. We even adorn "christmas tres" with silver and Gold.

Yes, but we do not carve them into idols. The description in Jeremiah is not a Christmas tree.

 

[jaigner]

No no no no. Not liturgical calander! You want us to follow the works of the law? Scripture is clear about this! And look at what Jerimiah says Thus we are not to take their holiday's and "convert" it into a christian one. We even adorn "christmas tres" with silver and Gold.

Hmmm...not sure about your exegesis or interpretation. We're not participating in pagan traditions. We're remembering the blessed birth event.

Oh, and yes, yes, yes!!! And the liturgical calendar is not about works of the law. I'm not even sure where you might have heard that. Certainly not from any credible theologian. The calender is about participation and remembrance, developing greater love for Christ.

 

[webdog]

And if others choose to bastardize the holiday with commercial emphasis, unrest, and hostility, then Christians need to lead by example in the proper celebration of it.

Of course you can supply Scripture showing us to celebrate Christ's birth and how it is to be done. Could it be 1 Opinions?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, but we do not carve them into idols. The description in Jeremiah is not a Christmas tree.

But it was a tree was it not. And it was pagan.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hmmm...not sure about your exegesis or interpretation. We're not participating in pagan traditions. We're remembering the blessed birth event.

Oh, and yes, yes, yes!!! And the liturgical calendar is not about works of the law. I'm not even sure where you might have heard that. Certainly not from any credible theologian. The calender is about participation and remembrance, developing greater love for Christ.

Hah! even the word liturgy means work. A work of the people. So a liturgical Calander means working to a calander! And Sol Invictus is a pagan Holiday!

 

[jaigner]

Of course you can supply Scripture showing us to celebrate Christ's birth and how it is to be done. Could it be 1 Opinions?

I'm not a Scripture supplier. I read it. I pray over it. I follow the revelation it conveys.

It does little good to throw tiny bits of text around like a football in these cases.

If we are looking for a straight, normative, letter of a prescription for celebrating Christmas, we won't find it. But we can see where participants in our faith have long remembered and celebrated the sacred events in salvation history, even all the way back to some of the earliest biblical accounts.

If all we do is search the Bible for explicit, overarching prescriptions for cultic celebrations, we'll be doing a lot of strange things.

 

[jaigner]

Hah! even the word liturgy means work. A work of the people. So a liturgical Calander means working to a calander! And Sol Invictus is a pagan Holiday!

This is a pretty bizarre take.

The origin of the word is Greek, originally meaning public duty as to be performed by a citizen. The meaning with which we use it is as a prescribed set of ritual for use in public worship. It doesn't even mean THE prescribed set. But any liturgical evangelical would hold that it is always beneficial that we remember and participate in the sacred acts of salvation history.

It's obvious that I can't change your mind, and if this is really your conviction, then by all means follow it, but your position is historically pretty rare. Unless you are making idols out of your celebration (which is possible, but avoidable), it's not a cut and dry issue.

 

[webdog]

I'm not a Scripture supplier. I read it. I pray over it. I follow the revelation it conveys.

It does little good to throw tiny bits of text around like a football in these cases.

If we are looking for a straight, normative, letter of a prescription for celebrating Christmas, we won't find it. But we can see where participants in our faith have long remembered and celebrated the sacred events in salvation history, even all the way back to some of the earliest biblical accounts.

If all we do is search the Bible for explicit, overarching prescriptions for cultic celebrations, we'll be doing a lot of strange things.

Since Scripture is silent on celebrating Christ's birth, how can we put our foot down and say "this is how it is to be"? All evidence point to the early church not celebrating Christmas until the 4th century, so we can both agree it is not a scriptural mandate to do so and celebrating the commercial aspect is really no different than celebrating Thanksgiving, Valentines Day, etc.

 

[jaigner]

Since Scripture is silent on celebrating Christ's birth, how can we put our foot down and say "this is how it is to be"? All evidence point to the early church not celebrating Christmas until the 4th century, so we can both agree it is not a scriptural mandate to do so and celebrating the commercial aspect is really no different than celebrating Thanksgiving, Valentines Day, etc.

I agree that Scripture does not specifically prescribe the celebration, so I would definitely stop short of putting "my foot down." This is obviously an issue where one has to follow their own conscience.

I would, however, argue that this event has long been in the Christian tradition and is the single most central event in the course of salvation history, so it is quite different than celebrating the secular calendar.

But, again, if someone is led to do things differently, I'm not going to condemn them. Just make sure there is a well-developed reason one way or the other.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is a pretty bizarre take.

The origin of the word is Greek, originally meaning public duty as to be performed by a citizen. The meaning with which we use it is as a prescribed set of ritual for use in public worship. It doesn't even mean THE prescribed set. But any liturgical evangelical would hold that it is always beneficial that we remember and participate in the sacred acts of salvation history.

It's obvious that I can't change your mind, and if this is really your conviction, then by all means follow it, but your position is historically pretty rare. Unless you are making idols out of your celebration (which is possible, but avoidable), it's not a cut and dry issue.

The origin of the word is Greek and its a composit of leitourgia which is as you say a Duty or service but encompassing a specified work and the word Laos or people or a work of the people. Which you've expanded to include a set schedule as defined in a calander. Baptist aren't liturgical and thus we are not Liturgical evangelicals. We have a liberty that is evident in our faith rather than earning salvation by following prescribed rituals to include adorning a tree with silver and gold. Note the Celts would nail a person's intestine to an oak tree if it was defiled and "Unwind" the person around the tree and tied them there until they were dead.
Sol Invictus is the conquoring sun where the sun defeats darkness in an age old mythology going back to Horis and Ra but played out in the mystery religion of Mythras during the Roman Empire to celebrate the conquoring Sun god over the darkness. Thus Christmas is no more than celebrating the sun over the dark time in the calander thus the sun is replaced by Christ but we are still reverencing the sun rather than Christ on christmas.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Since Scripture is silent on celebrating Christ's birth, how can we put our foot down and say "this is how it is to be"? All evidence point to the early church not celebrating Christmas until the 4th century, so we can both agree it is not a scriptural mandate to do so and celebrating the commercial aspect is really no different than celebrating Thanksgiving, Valentines Day, etc.

Yep it was Constantines Fault once again!!!!!!! Do we really want to follow his lead?

 

[webdog]

I agree that Scripture does not specifically prescribe the celebration, so I would definitely stop short of putting "my foot down." This is obviously an issue where one has to follow their own conscience.

I would, however, argue that this event has long been in the Christian tradition and is the single most central event in the course of salvation history, so it is quite different than celebrating the secular calendar.

But, again, if someone is led to do things differently, I'm not going to condemn them. Just make sure there is a well-developed reason one way or the other.

I can live with this, but again, I'm sure we both agree that tradition is something that can be changed and interpreted. Maybe I mistook your comment about "bastardize the holiday with commercial emphasis".