At odds about Christmas

[Thinkingstuff]

If we were looking to Christmas or the liturgical calendar for salvation, I'd totally agree with you. Personally, I'm not into the liturgical calendar but I certainly love Christmas. It's got nothing to do with my salvation other than me celebrating the coming of the Messiah for my sins. If I don't celebrate it I'm not getting to heaven any faster than if I do.

Stay away from the celebration of Sol invictus if you value your soul.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

To pervert the meaning in this way is petty and pretty strange.

I did not pervert the meaning of this word liturgy. Note I think I have a lot more historical training than you suppose. However, having been raised catholic and currently in discussions with my very educated catholic family it is clear that liturgy is understood by those participating in it as

Liturgy, defined as the "work of the people," includes the preparation and implementation of our community's liturgical celebrations. - St. Martin of Tours Parish

So it is understood as a work of the people. You can't lay that one on me.

Hmmm...so since many of these churches have crosses, we should get rid of those. Or a chancel...no more chancels, just concrete walls. And since they observe communion, we need to stop that heathen practice as well.

Certainly Oliver Cromwell would say so. Which we know that Puritans are part of our American Baptist spiritual heritage.

The liturgical calendar, I will say again, is about participation with Christ in the important works of salvation history. It places Christ in His rightful place as the center of Christian worship.

CATHOLIC HERESY!!!!! Its a work. It operates as a works which leads to salvation in the understanding of the churches that participate in it.

To be honest, your theology reeks of paranoia and theological arrogance. The very fact that there are faithful evangelicals who come to a different conclusion cannot possibly sit well with you, since there is only one way and you know exactly what that one way is.

YES this is true. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT ONE WAY IS. I'm glad you've come to that understanding.

Saved? Saved? ("Saved" is an eschatological term, by the way, not a blanket term for justification.) So now I'm not saved because I choose to remember and participate in Christ's salvific works throughout the year?

Oh now I'm a dumb bumpkin. Ye'ah sir I's a be not edjumicated 'nough for you? I'm intelligent to understand that if you hold that salvation is not a blanket term for Justification you believe in progressive justification. Which for the most part is not baptist. (again I must indicate that this is a general statement because there are basptist of all sorts despite what many here believe) Because to constantly becoming justified means works are important for salvation. Justification then expands the view of Salvation of being more than a point an time event but an event to include future justification thus saying "I have been saved", "I am being saved", "I will be saved". Many here would be at issue with this perspective believe me I know. How I know you might be interested to find out.

You completely misunderstand this issue. You need to do some graduate level reading in church history and theology. I can recommend some great texts if you wish.

You may be suprised that I might be familiar with your texts. I may not be but either way you can always recommend them and I will look at them.

Wow, Mr. Drama Queen - you're labeling a whole lot of evangelical Christians, even very conservative ones, as heretics.

Excuse me. I am a male of the human species. I do not dress in drag nor have an effeminant manner by which I conduct myself. I would gladly ask you remove your "Queen" remark

Do I sound like Tom Brokaw?

YES, why yes you do.

 

[glfredrick]

You guys and gals will analyze stuff to DEATH. Meanwhile, you miss a couple of HUGE biblical points: 1) That Satan is called "the accuser of the brethren; 2) That God calls us to build and edify relationships, not tear them and each other down; and 3) That God is the God of feasts and festivals and that HE send the Angels down to celebrate the Birth of Christ with what we now call a Christmas party, HE told us about the giving of gifts via the wise men from the East, and HE caused all those who know all this stuff to worship all the more, for HIS glory.

I'm going out Christmas shopping and preparing to love on some folks. :thumbs:

I'll also be planning on decorating my home with lights, putting up the (fake) Christmas tree, prominently displayed in my large front window, and inviting all my neighbors over for hot spiced cider, cookies, and fellowship. Along the way, I may get to explain the real meaning of the Christmas story, and someone might come to know the Lord. May it be so!

Merry Christmas everyone (if even a bit early...) :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What is the name of the day, today? Thursday?

Do you have a problem saying that name? What about Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

All those day names have their roots in pagan worship. Such is our life in this sin-cursed world.

Go and enjoy Christmas to the fullest extent, knowing that you are worshiping God by doing what He said, loving family and friends, and by spreading the gospel, which says very simply, that "when the fullness of time was complete, God sent His son into the world, born of a woman..."

Oh, praise God. I'll set up the Christmas tree, decorate it, hand out gifts, wish others a merry Christmas, and PRAISE my Savior for coming into this world to save souls, mine included!

As an aside, I still recall my first Christmas after becoming one of God's children. I was 27 years old that year. I accepted Christ on my own, with no real live person involved (via radio) and had no real idea about the extent of my salvation until Christmas time came. My soul literally exploded within me, and I SO identified with John the Baptist, who lept in Elizabeth's womb just for being in the presence of Messiah. Songs I sung by rote for almost 3 decades broke me to tears as I contemplated "God with us." What was once commercial and driven only by satisfied wants became an act of worship as I learned to apply God's love to those around me.

I'll agree that all things are not right about our Christmas celebration. Even in the church, we've let a lot of purely secular stuff drive the holiday, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because some abuse things. Focus on God and His magnificent grace coming to us, and draw others into the celebration with you! Recall that "feast days" were ordained by God for both for remembering and for the pleasure of His people!

Well said Brother.:thumbsup:

 

[jaigner]

However, having been raised catholic and currently in discussions with my very educated catholic family it is clear that liturgy is understood by those participating in it as So it is understood as a work of the people. You can't lay that one on me.

It's obvious that you have some or at least have a healthy appetite for study, otherwise you wouldn't have even approached this issue. For that, I give you credit.

But I wouldn't take a bunch of Catholics' word for this issue. This may be how they understand it, since Catholics have a very different doctrine of justification.

CATHOLIC HERESY!!!!! Its a work. It operates as a works which leads to salvation in the understanding of the churches that participate in it.

So catholics view this as ex opere operato? Or is it that it's an act that leads one to being sanctified?

I'm intelligent to understand that if you hold that salvation is not a blanket term for Justification you believe in progressive justification.

Wow...progressive justification? I'm very solidly evangelical. I don't believe in any such thing. Justification is once for all. But Paul's use of the word "saved" is very much in an eschatological sense, with it's culmination on the renewed earth.

Excuse me. I am a male of the human species. I do not dress in drag nor have an effeminant manner by which I conduct myself. I would gladly ask you remove your "Queen" remark.

It's a figure of speech, dude.

YES, why yes you do.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It's obvious that you have some or at least have a healthy appetite for study, otherwise you wouldn't have even approached this issue. For that, I give you credit.

Do I also get extra credit?

But I wouldn't take a bunch of Catholics' word for this issue. This may be how they understand it, since Catholics have a very different doctrine of justification.

Believe me I know.

So catholics view this as ex opere operato? Or is it that it's an act that leads one to being sanctified?

In a sense yes.

Wow...progressive justification? I'm very solidly evangelical. I don't believe in any such thing. Justification is once for all. But Paul's use of the word "saved" is very much in an eschatological sense, with it's culmination on the renewed earth.

So you believe in salvation as an end game thing - "I will be saved" so you've expanded Salvation and kept justification at a one point in time event?

It's a figure of speech, dude

irrelevant I don't like the term "Queen" applied to myself. You may call me a drama king but not queen.

 

[Aaron]

You may call me a drama king but not queen.

Permission is not usually sought nor required when characterizing another's behavior.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do I also get extra credit?

irrelevant I don't like the term "Queen" applied to myself. You may call me a drama king but not queen.

If he called you a gay blade, would you accept that?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Permission is not usually sought nor required when characterizing another's behavior.

again irrelevant.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If he called you a gay blade, would you accept that?:smilewinkgrin:

Definately, have issues with it. Another term that I find distastefull is "Mr. Happy" don't like it.

 

[annsni]

Stay away from the celebration of Sol invictus if you value your soul.

No worries since I don't even know what that is.

Besides, my soul is sealed in Jesus Christ. No need to worry.

 

[webdog]

No worries since I don't even know what that is.

Besides, my soul is sealed in Jesus Christ. No need to worry.

I think it's when you step on a sharp toy in the middle of the night...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No worries since I don't even know what that is.

Besides, my soul is sealed in Jesus Christ. No need to worry.

I will quote the KTSB (King Thinkgstuff bible)

6 Then the LORD said to Cain,(annsi) “Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right,(not celebrate Sol Invictus and thus Mythras) will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right,(Celebrate Sol Invictus on December 25th) sin (and Mythras) is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

It might be in the book of Hezikiah with the parenthesis.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Definately, have issues with it. Another term that I find distastefull is "Mr. Happy" don't like it.

Inappropriate comment removed

 

[Dr. Bob]

Crude, inappropriate and just not up to BB standards. Went back a few pages and found more and more. Enough.

Am closing this and asking for some basic Christian decency, folks.