So at what point did regeneration occur?
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At what Point was Saul (Paul) Regenerated?
- Thread starter revmwc
- Start date
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
The road to Damascus was almost certainly WHEN God did the revealing. WHEN Christ became 'IN' Paul is another matter.
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My guess he was regenerate from the womb. John the Baptist filled with the Spirit while in the womb; David made to hope while on his mother's breast; Isaac born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning. Nothing new or odd with Paul having the Jerusalem above for his mother since birth.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
That's right brother, but the thing is he was kicking against the goading perhaps at that point. God would save Him, he was one of His elect.
Yes. That is what the unregenerate do. They hate God. They hate the Light. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]
Those who come to the Light, have been illumined by the Spirit, and now have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to love Him, all via regeneration by the Spirit of God.
I'd say right before he said "Lord."
57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one accord;
58 and they cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Acts 7
20 and when the blood of Stephen thy witness was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting, and keeping the garments of them that slew him. Acts 22
Revmwc literally adds to scripture and has a Calvinist amen corner for support.
58 and they cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Acts 7
20 and when the blood of Stephen thy witness was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting, and keeping the garments of them that slew him. Acts 22
Revmwc literally adds to scripture and has a Calvinist amen corner for support.
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John Calvin unregenerate at the execution of Michael Servetus?
Man are you off. The Calvinist on here disagree with me all the way. I see regeneration after faith at what point was his faith would be the question, I believe faith came when he said Lord what will you have me to do, but in this time of the church I believe the Holy Spirit indwells us at salvation. The indwelling for Paul appears to be delayed, for God's purpose.
Now if he was regenerate from the womb, then wouldn't he have been serving God and not persecuting the church?
Nah, not really. There's probably only a few nanoseconds difference between your regeneration after faith and their regeneration before.
Abraham unregenerate prior to Gen 15:6?
David was made to hope while on his mother's breast yet willfully committed his heinous sins of murder and adultery. Paul acted out of ignorance:
13 though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief; 1 Tim 1
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16
Why was Saul blind for three days? Was the light of the Lord just to much for his eyes? Did they just get better on their own because of the passage of time?
I believe he received the Spirit of adoption because of the faith, God the Father had in the obedience of the Son in shedding his life's blood.
Phil 2:8 For obedience of faith, obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. V 9 Wherefore God (the Father) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God (the Father) raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Did these words of Jesus take place not to long before the agony in the garden? What must Jesus be obedient unto, in order for the Spirit of adoption to be given to Saul or anyone else?
Hearing of faith, whose, allows for one to receive the Spirit of adoption?
I believe he received the Spirit of adoption because of the faith, God the Father had in the obedience of the Son in shedding his life's blood.
Phil 2:8 For obedience of faith, obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. V 9 Wherefore God (the Father) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God (the Father) raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Did these words of Jesus take place not to long before the agony in the garden? What must Jesus be obedient unto, in order for the Spirit of adoption to be given to Saul or anyone else?
Hearing of faith, whose, allows for one to receive the Spirit of adoption?
Wonderful verses. Yet, it does not purport your mysticism. You have no scripture to point to Paul's regeneration other than Acts 9. In 1 John we can read Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.[1 John 3:7-10]
You are purporting that Saul of Tarsus, who prior to his conversion, was a blasphemer and a persecutor of his Brothers and Sisters was regenerated? Srsly? That in now way, shape, form or fashion, proves he was regenerated. Not in the least. He hated those who called up Christ. That is not an earmark of regeneration. He was sinning whilst he was persecuting those who later on he loved. When God turned his hatred of Christ to love, then he was converted. He was not loving Christ on his way to Damascus. He was going to beat them and then bring them back to have them killed. That is not someone who is regenerated.
As it also says in 1 John Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Saul of Tarsus was in no way, shape, form, or fashion regenerated whilst he was persecuting the church for which Christ died for. This is just another ploy to prop up that carnal Christian heresy.
I never 'amened' him. Better go get some new glasses made.
Lol, mysticism.
the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3:8
34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13
....and that's about the extent of 'my' mysticism.
In regards to Abram, I am right there with you. In the OT, God did speak directly to His ppl, and even spoke to Balaam through his donkey. He also spoke directly to Moses. Yet, He does not speak to us in that manner now. As the writer of Hebrews wrote In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.[Hebrews 1:1-4] God in Christ spoke to His ppl, and those appointed by God, wrote it down in the four gospels. Then God came to Saul of Tarsus, and converted him and he wrote 13 of the NT books we all cherish. He now speaks to us through His word(bible), and also through the preaching and witnessing of His ppl.
So if anyone of this day believes, truly believes in Him, it is revealed to them via the word of God as the Spirit moves upon them. That is the context of John 3:3-John 3:8. He moves as He wills, but He moves via the proclamation of God's word. Those that believe have heard the gospel of their salvation and when they believe, they are saved.
The woman at the well who spoke directly to Jesus, she said Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet."[John 4:19] It was as Jesus was conversing with her, you can see her understanding of Him broadening. It was via the Word(God's Christ) that she was regenerated, to see Him for Who He really was, and is, the Son, the Christ of God.
"Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”[John 4:20-26]
Apparently the Samaritans were worshipping idols and not the One, True God. Jesus said they did not know what they were worshipping. That goes for all , even them in remote areas where the word of God has not been proclaimed. Then we can read But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Romans 10:8-15] That which I underlined in the bolded portion is the crux of mysticism. How can anyone believe in God's Christ without ever hearing about Him? They can not. This knowledge is given to us by Him via the proclamation of His word.
Apparently the Samaritans were worshipping idols and not the One, True God. Jesus said they did not know what they were worshipping. That goes for all , even them in remote areas where the word of God has not been proclaimed. Then we can read But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Romans 10:8-15] That which I underlined in the bolded portion is the crux of mysticism. How can anyone believe in God's Christ without ever hearing about Him? They can not. This knowledge is given to us by Him via the proclamation of His word.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Wonderful verses. Yet, it does not purport your mysticism...I never 'amened' him. Better go get some new glasses made.
You're exactly correct, none of the passage he used proves his point, nor better yet denies ours as was his intent.
Acts 9 is Paul's CONVERSION, not his heavenly birth, in my view.
3 I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, even as ye all are this day: Acts 22
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. Ro 10
He didn't HATE God, he had zeal for God BEFORE his conversion. He was following orders, serving God in his mind, in trying to stamp out this heretical sect of the Nazarenes. But God, Who separated him from the womb and Who allowed him to act out these things beforehand, revealed Christ in Paul WHEN it was God's good pleasure to do so, and that was on the road to Damascus.
But Saul of Tarsus hated Christ and all those who called upon his name. To hate Christ is to hate the Father, too.