Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

[BobRyan]

The Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of the cleasning of the sanctuary in Daniel 8 is complete and utter ignorance on public display.

Dan. 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


1. First the term "days" is not found in the Hebrew text

I spent a few minutes trying to find that Dan 8:14 quote from me - and finally figure out this is "you quoting you"!! Ha! what a hoot!

As all Bible students know - the "2300 evening mornings" phrase of Dan 8:14 is the same formula for day that you find in Genesis 1. "And evening and morning were the first day... second day,...third day" etc.

Walter said
2. It is not found because he is not talking about "days" but about the common "DAILY" morning and evening offering.

The daily sacrifice in the OT was never called "the evening and morning daily" or even the "evening and morning sacrifice".

The evening morning formula is uniquely used for day as in Genesis 1.

Walter
3. Therefore the number of days is one thousand and one hundred and fifty days or almost three and half years exactly.

2300 / 2 = 1150.

1260 days (3.5 years of 30 day months) does not equal 1150!!


1260=1150 "Almost" -- "Exactly"?? :laugh:

The idea that 1150 days is "almost exactly" 1260 days is pretty funny.

How about 3.6 years where we just look at real solar 365.25 days per year? Well then it is 1278.375 days. Hmm no joy there either my friend.

The simple fact is that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8:14 are 2300 prophetic days just like the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 prophetic days which expand out to 490 years in the OT "Day for year" model seen in Dan 9 and Num 14:32-34 AND Ezek 4:5-6.

So we have 1260 years in Dan 7 "Times Time and half a time" (3.5 years of 12 months each, 30 prophetic days per month).
We have 2300 years in Dan 8's "2300 evening mornings"
and we have 490 years in Dan 9's 70 weeks.

Consistency - what a joy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Walter said
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
The sacrifice on the altar is not the atonement in and of itself. The atonement was not finished until the High Preist not only made the application in the holy of holies but in addition went out side the camp and placed his hands on the head of the live goat and let him loose into the wilderness. Likewise, the cross is worthless apart from the resurrection and ascension.

Agreed to that point.

Which is why I kept pointing to the statements in Heb 4,5,7 that all show that Christ was STILL ministering as High Priest as of the writing of the book of Hebrews DECADES after Christ went to heaven!

And that is also why in my prior posts I brought in the Zech 6 detail of the High Priest doing his work SEATED on His Throne.

Zech 6
11"Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throneThus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."'

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched not man.

You are confusing what I said about the typology in the Old Testament with the reality in the New Testament.

It is called "type" and "antitype".

As Hebrews 9 points out - the sacrifice is "once for all" and the entry into heaven's sanctuary is "once for all".

But as Heb 8 points out - the two appartment format of the Earthly sanctuary is the same design as the heavenly sanctuary. Thus a two phase (daily vs Day of Atonement) ministry in heaven would be expected.

But to see if that is the case - we simply "notice" that the details in Dan 8 move us to the point of the "time of the end" which is well after the rise of the Papacy when you look at the little horn of Dan 8 and the Little horn of Daniel 7.

Walter said: In the New Testament the antitype is completed on the Cross,

Certainly we can all agree that the type for the lamb of God - the sin offering meets its antitype at the cross.

But As I pointed out in Heb 4, 5,7,8 Paul is clear that Christ did not begin his High Priestly ministry on the cross - but rather after he went to heaven and His sacrifice was completed. In fact Paul insists in Heb 8:4 that while on earth - Christ was not - and would not - "be a priest at all".

And the Lev 16 teaching is that not only do you have the sin offering as a type of Christ - but you also have the High Priest as a type of Christ. One follows the other -- just as in real life Christ first sufferred as the Atoning Sacrifice for sins - and then ascended to Heaven STARTING His role as our High Priest. (A point that Paul is very clear on).

By ignoring the texts provided you simply make sweeping assertions to the contrary of the details already provided IN the text!

Walter said
that is precisely why Christ as our High Priest is SEATED in heaven because His High Preistly work is FINISHED.

I gave text after text in Hebrews were Paul argues that Christ IS currently and actively working in His role as our High Priest.

I will do it again --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here again - the references to Christ's ongoing High Priestly ministry for us.

In Heb 2 we find that Paul confirms - decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven.


Heb 2
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

In Heb 4 we find that Paul confirms - decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven.


Hebrews 4
...
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


In Heb 5 we find that Paul confirms - decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven actively engaged in ministry for us.

Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect,He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Clearly Heb 5 shows us that the high priestly work of Christ is specific to His being the source of eternal salvation. Finding eternal salvation
from some other source after Christ's work as high priest ends - is not endorsed by Hebrews 5.


In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man”
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Heb 6
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.


In Heb 7 Christ's "completed" once for all atoning sacrifice is noted along side his ongoing High Priestly ministry. Still ongoing at time of Heb 7 – decades after the cross

Heb 7
20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "" THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER''');
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for usto have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.


In Heb 8 Christ’s ongoing High Priestly ministry for us – decades after the cross at the time of this letter – and millenniums after the cross today!

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man” that “lives to make intercession for “ us.
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Thus the “wrath of God unmixed” (Rev 14:10) with mercy – is NOT falling upon mankind

 

[Dr. Walter]

I spent a few minutes trying to find that Dan 8:14 quote from me - and finally figure out this is "you quoting you"!! Ha! what a hoot!

I never said you mentioned it per se. However, it was the background for your statement on the 2300 days.

As all Bible students know

What an outright over exaggeration. Exodus 29:28-39 use the same language "evening" and "morning" for the "daily offering" which the immediate context (Daniel 8:10-13) specifically states is the very topic being considered. SDA scholars are simply willfully blind and dishonest with the Biblical context.

The daily sacrifice in the OT was never called "the evening and morning daily" or even the "evening and morning sacrifice".

Don't recall ever saying that the language was exact. However, you don't need to be a genius to figure out that the context is explicitly referring to the "evening" and to the "morning" sacrifice as the "daily" sacrifice in Exodux 29:38-39 as it is obvious and self-evident unless your blinded by some hocus pocus imagined eschatologica theory.

2300 / 2 = 1150.

1260 days (3.5 years of 30 day months) does not equal 1150!!

You are right about this. I mistakenly added it up wrongly. However, that still does take away the fact that it has its immediate historic appliction with Antiochus Epiphanes and ultimately application most likely with the Antichrist in Rev. 13.


[/QUOTE] The simple fact is that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8:14 are 2300 prophetic days just like the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 prophetic days which expand out to 490 years in the OT "Day for year" model seen in Dan 9 and Num 14:32-34 AND Ezek 4:5-6.[/QUOTE]

This is not merely pure imagination gone wild but plainly contradicted by the obvious and clear context.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Here again - the references to Christ's ongoing High Priestly ministry for us.

Every passage you have quoted has nothing to do with an ongoing unfinished work IN HEAVEN as our High Priest but to the application of the FINISHED WORK presented in heaven to those ON EARTH in a space time continuum. In other words, this finished work is spelled out in Romans 8:28-30 - it is a done deal. However, those "elect" who have been chosen unto salvation before the world began (2 Thes. 2:13) many have not yet had this finished atonement applied to them ON EARTH and many have not yet been born. There is no work to finish and that is why He is SEATED but there is application of that FINISHED work ON EARTH.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
As all Bible students know - the "2300 evening mornings" phrase of Dan 8:14 is the same formula for day that you find in Genesis 1. "And evening and morning were the first day... second day,...third day" etc.

Walter said
What an outright over exaggeration. Exodus 29:28-39 use the same language "evening" and "morning" for the "daily offering" which the immediate context (Daniel 8:10-13) specifically states is the very topic being considered. SDA scholars are simply willfully blind and (obligatory rant deleted here)

There is nothing in Ex 29:38-39 or even 28-39 using the term "evening and morning".

However we do the term "daily" there and we see the "continual offering".

But not your much anticipated - and still not seen example of "evening and morning offering" as the daily or even a mention of such a thing. The only thing you have in scripture is the "Daily offering" and the "morning and evening offering".

But Dan 7:14 specifically says "2300 evening mornings" no mention of offering and no mention of the "morning and evening" pattern for daily offering.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is nothing in Ex 29:38-39 or even 28-39 using the term "evening and morning".

1. Exodus 29:38-29 is the well known and recognized "DAILY OFFERING"

38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.[Heb Taymid]
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:


2. The same Hebrew words are used in Exodus 29:39 as in Dan. 8:14

Ex. 29:38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; [Heb. boqer] and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even [Heb. ereb]:[/COLOR]

Dan. 8:14 - 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [Heb. ereb, boquer] then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


3. The immediate Preceding context to Daniel 8:14 is the "Daily offering" where the same hebrew word "tamyid" translated "daily" in Daniel 8:10-12 is the same term used in Exodus 29:38 "tamyid" translated "continually"

Dan. 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [Heb. Tamyid] sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily [Heb. Tamyid] sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily [Heb.Tamyid] sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [Heb. ereb, boquer] then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Ex. 29:38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. [Heb. tamyid]39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning;[Heb. boquer] and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:[Heb. ereb]


4. The vision in Daniel 8:10-14 is called "the vision of the morning and evening" in Daniel 8:26 in the SINGULAR not plural because it has to do with the evening singular sacrifice and the morning singular sacrifice:

And the vision of the evening [ereb] and the morning [boquer] which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


5. Daniel 8:13 repeated says that it is this "daily" (Heb. tamyid) sacrifice that is "TAKEN AWAY" and asks how long? Verse 14 gives the number of "evening" and "morning" that are TAKEN AWAY.

Daniel 8:13 ".....How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice..."

Conclusion: Daniel 8:10-13 tell us explicitly THREE TIMES that it is the the "daily" (Heb.tamyid) offering which is offered in the morning (Heb. boquer) and in the evening (Heb. ereb) that is being discussed. Verse 13 asks the question how long will the daily sacrifice be taken away? Verse 26 speaks of it in the singular not the plura "evening" and "morning" and verse 14 numbers the evening sacrifice and the morning sacrifice to be a totall of 2300. Now either it is 2300 evening and morning sacrifices which is a total of 1150 days of sacrifices or it is 2300 singular evening and morning sacrifices for a total of 2300 days.
However, the historical application is recorded in the book of 1st Maccebees and the first chapter (vv. 44,54) as an immediate fulfillment and many believe its final fulfillment is with the Antichrist in Revelation 13. But one thing it is not, it is not the silly SDA imagined prophetic 2300 days theory having to do with the heretical unfinished work of Christ in the temple in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Walter makes the claim that in Dan 8:14 "he is not talking about "days" but about the common "DAILY" morning and evening offering. "

As all Bible students know - the "2300 evening mornings" phrase of Dan 8:14 is the same formula for day that you find in Genesis 1. "And evening and morning were the first day... second day,...third day" etc.


The daily sacrifice in the OT was never called "the evening and morning daily" or even the "evening and morning sacrifice".

The evening morning formula is uniquely used for day as in Genesis 1.

Walter said:
Walter said
What an outright over exaggeration. Exodus 29:28-39 use the same language "evening" and "morning" for the "daily offering" which the immediate context (Daniel 8:10-13) specifically states is the very topic being considered. SDA scholars are simply willfully blind and (obligatory rant deleted here)

Wow - the claim that Ex 29:38-39 uses the phrase "evening and morning" the SAME language as Dan 8:14 2300 "evening mornings" and Gen 1 "Evening and morning were the nth day" -- hmm that is quite a claim -- and it is laced with a fair bit of venom as well. Let us see if it holds water!

Bob said
There is nothing in Ex 29:38-39 or even 28-39 using the term "evening and morning".

However we do the term "daily" there and we see the "continual offering".

But not your much anticipated - and still not seen example of "evening and morning offering" as the daily or even a mention of such a thing. The only thing you have in scripture is the "Daily offering" and the "morning and evening offering".

But Dan 7:14 specifically says "2300 evening mornings" no mention of offering and no mention of the "morning and evening" pattern for daily offering.

The point remains.

Well ok so that "evening and morning the same as Dan 8:14" wild claim did not work for Ex 29.

Now what will be the tactic?

Walter said
1. Exodus 29:38-29 is the well known and recognized "DAILY OFFERING"

38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.[Heb Taymid]
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

As already pointed out in my previous posts - the daily is referred to as the morning and evening sacrifices - so you have 2 sacrifices -- but never the evening morning formula because that phrase is unique in the Bible for a day "And evening and morning were the first day" etc.

So when we see it in Dan 8:14 "2300 evening mornings" we have 2300 days. This is always the case in scripture.

You just did a bait-and-switch from the claim that the evening-morning formula is found in Ex 29 the SAME as it is found in Dan 8:14 to an "oh well ... morning and then later evening".

Hmm your distance from the details here is the same as your 1150 is almost exactly 1260 claim.

As I said before - the point remains and so also this statement.

Bob said
The simple fact is that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8:14 are 2300 prophetic days just like the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 prophetic days which expand out to 490 years in the OT "Day for year" model seen in Dan 9 and Num 14:32-34 AND Ezek 4:5-6.

So we have 1260 years in Dan 7 "Times Time and half a time" (3.5 years of 12 months each, 30 prophetic days per month).
We have 2300 years in Dan 8's "2300 evening mornings"
and we have 490 years in Dan 9's 70 weeks.

Consistency - what a joy.

In Dan 8:13 the question is asked "How LONG is the vision" (not "how long is a slice, sliver, part, of the vision") - what period of time is covered by the vision of Dan 8:1-11 and the answer is that the entire time spans 2300 evening mornings -- so that is prophetic days (so that is simply an everaged set of solar years given the effect that the intercalary months have on adjusting the Hebrew calendar) -- and that it goes to the "time of the end". Thus the 2300 year timeline beginning as does Dan 8 with the domination time frame of the Medo-Persian empire and moving foreward to the time of the little horn.

That brings us to the fact that Dan 7 covers that SAME timeline and gives added detail about the little horn that persecuted the saints, blasphemes God and becomes a big pain in the neck. We look at that next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Dan 2 we have a four empire sequence followed by divided nations and then a stone representing the Kingdom of God that hits the image and becomes a mountain - God's eternal kingdom.

in Dan 7 we have the same four empire sequence but this time there is the added detail that the 4th empire splits into ten and then an 11th horn comes up and uproots 3 of the 10. This little horn is described both in Dan 7 and in Dan 8.

The four empires are Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece and Rome. In Dan 2 Babylon is identified and in Dan 8 - Medo Persia and Greece are both named explicitly in the text.

In Dan 7 after the 4 empire sequence and after Rome splits into 10 and after the new little horn power arises and uproots 3 of the ten -- we see the judgment scene setup in heaven where God the Father (the Ancient of Days) takes His seat, the court sits and the books are opened (vs 9-10) and the result of that court room work is that in Dan 7:22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

We look at the text in Dan 7 starting just after the 4th beast is mentioned and the division of Rom into 10 kingdoms, and the 11th kingdom (little horn) arises.

9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.


21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.


What is interesting is that the judgment scene takes place only after the rise of the little horn after the division of the Roman empire and that the little horn has power over the saints to persecute them until judgment is passed in favor of the saints AND the saints take possession of the Kingdom of Christ as joint heirs.

As already noted in Romans 2:6-16 Judgment is a good thing for Paul says "according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:16 and points to this event as future to his own day.

Indeed the division of the Roman empire does not occur in Paul's day - so this is future to the first century A.D.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

1. Exodus 29:38-29 is the well known and recognized "DAILY OFFERING"

38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.[Heb Taymid]
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:


2. The same Hebrew words are used in Exodus 29:39 as in Dan. 8:14

Ex. 29:38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; [Heb. boqer] and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even [Heb. ereb]:[/COLOR]

Dan. 8:14 - 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [Heb. ereb, boquer] then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


3. The immediate Preceding context to Daniel 8:14 is the "Daily offering" where the same hebrew word "tamyid" translated "daily" in Daniel 8:10-12 is the same term used in Exodus 29:38 "tamyid" translated "continually"

Dan. 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [Heb. Tamyid] sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily [Heb. Tamyid] sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily [Heb.Tamyid] sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; [Heb. ereb, boquer] then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Ex. 29:38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. [Heb. tamyid]39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning;[Heb. boquer] and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:[Heb. ereb]


4. The vision in Daniel 8:10-14 is called "the vision of the morning and evening" in Daniel 8:26 in the SINGULAR not plural because it has to do with the evening singular sacrifice and the morning singular sacrifice:

And the vision of the evening [ereb] and the morning [boquer] which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


5. Daniel 8:13 repeated says that it is this "daily" (Heb. tamyid) sacrifice that is "TAKEN AWAY" and asks how long? Verse 14 gives the number of "evening" and "morning" that are TAKEN AWAY.

Daniel 8:13 ".....How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice..."

Conclusion: Daniel 8:10-13 tell us explicitly THREE TIMES that it is the the "daily" (Heb.tamyid) offering which is offered in the morning (Heb. boquer) and in the evening (Heb. ereb) that is being discussed. Verse 13 asks the question how long will the daily sacrifice be taken away? Verse 26 speaks of it in the singular not the plura "evening" and "morning" and verse 14 numbers the evening sacrifice and the morning sacrifice to be a totall of 2300. Now either it is 2300 evening and morning sacrifices which is a total of 1150 days of sacrifices or it is 2300 singular evening and morning sacrifices for a total of 2300 days.
However, the historical application is recorded in the book of 1st Maccebees and the first chapter (vv. 44,54) as an immediate fulfillment and many believe its final fulfillment is with the Antichrist in Revelation 13. But one thing it is not, it is not the silly SDA imagined prophetic 2300 days theory having to do with the heretical unfinished work of Christ in the temple in heaven.

It is "THE SACRIFICE" which occurs "DAILY" (Tamyid) that is taken away (vv. 10-13) and the term "DAILY" Tamyid" is not used for the Genesis "days" but it is used for the SINGULAR "evening" and SINGULAR "morning" sacrifice. Note that Daniel 8:26 does not use the PLURAL but uses the SINGULAR "The vision of the Evening and Morning." He uses the SINGULAR because he is not talking about PLURAL DAYS but the SINGULAR DAILY sacrifice. Moreover he is not talking about a temple IN HEAVEN but ON EARTH that can be defiled and where the sacrifice can be taken away .

 

[BobRyan]

The templated fact that Dan 2, and Dan 7 and Dan 8 (and to an extent Dan 9) are dealing with the same timeline scope of the 4 empire sequence and events that follow it - is helpful.

It is instructive as to what is meant in Dan 8 by the "time of the end" and it is hepful in placing the Dan 8:14 "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" event.

The little horn does damage according to Dan 7 for 1260 years (time times and half a time) -- i.e. the dark ages. It is only aftgr that point that the judgment scene of Dan 7:9-10 takes place and that the cleansing of the sanctuary event in Dan 8:14 takes place because both of them have the context of the activity of the little horn doing damage prior to the judgment completed and prior to the sanctuary cleansed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 8:26 does not use the PLURAL but uses the SINGULAR "The vision of the Evening and Morning." He uses the SINGULAR because he is not talking about PLURAL DAYS but the SINGULAR DAILY sacrifice. Moreover he is not talking about a temple IN HEAVEN but ON EARTH that can be defiled and where the sacrifice can be taken away .

The "daily" of Dan 8 is a singular because it is the concept of taking away the daily.

If we were talking about taking away 2300 daily's then it would be plural. The point is that during some sliver some part of the 2300 "evening mornings" (2300 prophetic days -- so that is 2300 real years) the daily is taken away.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The templated fact that Dan 2, and Dan 7 and Dan 8 (and to an extent Dan 9) are dealing with the same timeline scope of the 4 empire sequence and events that follow it - is helpful.

Daniel 2 begins with Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the ten toes or the ten kings that John says were yet future from his time (Rev. 17) and so does Daniel 7 and the four beasts. To say this is 1260 years is simply a repudiation of historical evidence. The ten toe kingdom is destroyed by the Second coming of Christ (Rev. 17). The time span in Daniel 2 and 7 is over 2600 years. It does not take too much study of history to trace the time line beginning with the head in Daniel 2 to the ten kings at the coming of Christ to figure out Bob's chronology is all messed up.

Daniel 8 deals with the Grecian Empire, its rise and fall and the text in question deals with Antiochus Epiphanes.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The "daily" of Dan 8 is a singular because it is the concept of taking away the daily.

Confession is good for the soul. It is talking about "the daily" NOT "DAYS" and so that is why the singular "evening and plural" are used because the "the daily" consists of ONE evening and ONE morning sacrifice and therefore it is "THE VISION of (singular) the morning and (singular) the evening" (v. 26) rather than "The vision of (plural) the MORNINGS and (Plural) THE EVENINGS" (v. 26) as would be necessary if we were talking about PLURAL DAYS.

 

[BobRyan]

The templated fact that Dan 2, and Dan 7 and Dan 8 (and to an extent Dan 9) are dealing with the same timeline scope of the 4 empire sequence and events that follow it - is helpful.

Daniel 2 begins with Nebuchadnezzar and ends with the ten toes or the ten kings that John says were yet future from his time (Rev. 17) and so does Daniel 7 and the four beasts. To say this is 1260 years is simply a repudiation of historical evidence. The ten toe kingdom is destroyed by the Second coming of Christ (Rev. 17). The time span in Daniel 2 and 7 is over 2600 years.

The 1260 years of Dan 7 start AFTER the fall of the Roman empire and the rise of the Papacy - the "little horn" power that uproots three of the dividing germanic tribes that split up Rome.

But Dan 7 STARTs with the time of Babylon and ends with the 2nd coming JUST as does Dan 2. So there is no claim that the 1260 years of the dark ages mentioned in Dan 7 starts with Babylon only that the vision itself of 4 empires starts with Babylon. details details.

Dan 8 drills down into even more detail in the same window of time but in Dan 8 you have a 2300 year timeline that goes from the domination period of the Persian empire (where the Dan 8 vision starts) so this is not including Babylon anymore -- and then follows through until the cleansing of the sanctuary event -- as stated in the text.

Thus the 2300 year timeline starts AFTER Babylon and does not claim to go through to the 2nd coming.

Your accusation above lacks detail support.

Bob
The simple fact is that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8:14 are 2300 prophetic days just like the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 prophetic days which expand out to 490 years in the OT "Day for year" model seen in Dan 9 and Num 14:32-34 AND Ezek 4:5-6.

So we have 1260 years in Dan 7 "Times Time and half a time" (3.5 years of 12 months each, 30 prophetic days per month).
We have 2300 years in Dan 8's "2300 evening mornings"
and we have 490 years in Dan 9's 70 weeks.

Consistency - what a joy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Confession is good for the soul. It is talking about "the daily" NOT "DAYS" and so that is why the singular "evening and plural" are used because the "the daily" consists of ONE evening and ONE morning sacrifice and therefore it is "THE VISION of (singular) the morning and (singular) the evening" (v. 26) rather than "The vision of (plural) the MORNINGS and (Plural) THE EVENINGS" (v. 26) as would be necessary if we were talking about PLURAL DAYS.

Hmm you want to get to the nits here. Ok

The text is actually "And he said to me, Until evening morning two thousand and three hundred, then...".

The fact singular evening morning 2300 is indicative of the fact that we are not to count evening as one number and mornings as another but they are a unique Gen 1 formula for "day".

Hence even the LXX rendering where they actually insert days into the text due to the clear meaning of the formula evening morning -- "until evening and morning days two thousand and three hundred..."

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The 1260 years of Dan 7 start AFTER the fall of the Roman empire and the rise of the Papacy - the "little horn" power that uproots three of the dividing germanic tribes that split up Rome.

How nice that you can use your imagination to make up things as you go! You have no Biblical facts to sustain anythng you have said. You pervert the scriptures to make them fit your preconcieved SDA eschatology. So you are now converting "1260 days" into "one hour"??? The Germanic tribes cannot possibly be the "ten toes" or the "ten" kings before the Dark Ages because John specifically states that have not arisen in his time and will not arise until the final "hour." They are not given power until the "hour" when the Antichrist reigns and the conclusion of that "hour" is his destruction by the Second Coming of Christ.

But Dan 7 STARTs with the time of Babylon and ends with the 2nd coming JUST as does Dan 2. So there is no claim that the 1260 years of the dark ages mentioned in Dan 7 starts with Babylon only that the vision itself of 4 empires starts with Babylon. details details.

Yes, "details, details"!!! Talking about "details" there is not one word of any 2300 days in Daniel 2 or 7. The third kingdom in Daniel 2 and 7 begins with Alexander the Great's father and the cleansing of the EARTHLY temple that was defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes after the "daily offering" was taken away occurred a long long time before Jesus was born.

This is so absudly rediculous that only a cultist would believe that Christ did not enter the temple in heaven at his ascenion but waited until 1843 to start a cleansing in heaven. What keeps you from believing also the false prophetesses claim"

The Lord has given me a view of other worlds, wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. . . . I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. . . . Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. Ellen G. White, Early Writings, pp. 39-40.

Dan 8 drills down into even more detail in the same window of time but in Dan 8 you have a 2300 year timeline that goes from the domination period of the Persian empire (where the Dan 8 vision starts) so this is not including Babylon anymore -- and then follows through until the cleansing of the sanctuary event -- as stated in the text.

Daniel 8:14 does not deal with the Persian Empire at all but with the Grecian. Don't you read history?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Bible commands us to try/test the spirits behind any prophet. Ellen G. White has been proven to be a liar as even SDA scholars have documented that the majority of materials found in her book are plagerized materials from other writers without giving then any credit but claiming it was given to her by God.

She has been proven to be a false prophet by several documented false prophecies. Thus the spirit behind her is Satan.

Angels have golden cards?

There is perfect order and harmony in the Holy City. All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. Early Writings, p. 39.

She saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn

Ellen’s husband, James White, verified her vision. He wrote, "At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handy works of God. She was guided to the planets Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision." A Word to the "Little Flock," p. 22.


The Lord has given me a view of other worlds, wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. . . . I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. . . . Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. Early Writings, pp. 39-40.

To date, excellent satellite pictures of Jupiter and Saturn have not revealed any life forms.


1844 The Lord Shut the Door to Salvation

I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase, and spread. The reformations that were shown me, were not reformations from error to truth; but from bad to worse; for those who professed a change of heart, had only wrapt about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive God's people; but if their hearts could be seen, they would appear as black as ever.
My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past. – Present Truth, August 1, 1849

The excitements and false reformations of this day do not move us, for we know that the Master of the house rose up in 1844, and shut the door of the first apartment of the heavenly tabernacle; and now we certainly expect that they will "go with their flocks," "to seek the Lord; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself (within the second vail) from them." The Lord has shown me that the power which is with them is a mere human influence, and not the power of God. – Present Truth, March 1, 1850

Guess who is responsible for the Cleansing of the Temple in 1843 theory? Guess who is responsible for the Daniel 8 theory? A proven liar and false prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The 1260 years of Dan 7 start AFTER the fall of the Roman empire and the rise of the Papacy - the "little horn" power that uproots three of the dividing germanic tribes that split up Rome.

Walter said
How nice that you can use your imagination to make up things as you go! You have no Biblical facts to sustain anythng you have said. So you are now converting "1260 days" into "one hour"??? The Germanic tribes cannot possibly be the "ten toes" or the "ten" kings before the Dark Ages because John specifically states that have not arisen in his time and will not arise until the final "hour."

Good pulpit pounding and harrumpphing Walter - but not scripture or point of fact in just piling on empty accusation after empty accusation.

Meanwhile we have the "details" in Dan 7 that debunk your assertions.

Dan 7
17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'



28 "" At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my face grew pale, but I kept the matter to myself.''

Details "in the text" debunking your claims:

1. In 1John 2:18 John does say that all of the NT era is "the final hour" - so that is 2000 years so far, not sure how you imagine this to help your case.
2. At the time of John the division of Rome into 10 had not taken place yet.
3. The 1260 years of Dan 7 are never said to happen in "one hour" in all of scripture, nor does John claim such a thing.

And historically - everybody knows that the pagan Roman empire fell before the dark ages and that in the dark ages the saints are persecuted even after the fall of pagan Rome - for centuries - not for 3.5 years -- thus the consistent day for year model in Dan 7, 8, 9.

This just could not be any easier.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hmm you want to get to the nits here. Ok

The text is actually "And he said to me, Until evening morning two thousand and three hundred, then...".

Daniel 8:14 is not the same Hebrew structure found in Genesis 1:5.

1. Daniel 8:14 reads "boqer erev"

2. Genes 1:5 reads "boqer hayah erev hayah"

Moreover, Genesis 1:5 structure always includes the Hebrew term "yom" or "day" and not "tamyid" (daily). Daniel 8:14 does not include the term "yom" but only "tamyid"