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Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is where I thought the Word of God would have been instructive -
Trust the Word of God
The temple of God - in this case the heavenly sanctuary has a holy place and a most holy place. As we see in Dan 7:9-10 the most holy place is vast - and accomodates "myriads and myriads" of intelligent sinless beings (possibly angels) as well as God the Father. It is where the "court sits and the books are opened" on the judgement day when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".
As Paul points out - it is a building that is built without hands - it was built by God Himself just as the Ten Commandments were engraved on stone by God Himself and Adam was fashioned from clay by God Himself.
Angels come out of the temple with directives from God according to the book of Revelation.
At the time of the seven last plagues - nobody ministers in the Sanctuary as a priest - as our mediator between God and man according to Rev 15:8.
in Christ,
Bob
Sorry, you fail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.00 Go straight to purgatory.
Try again Bob.
It is a simple question.
Define "temple."
What is a temple? I never mentioned heaven did I?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK gives the Catholic answer for the texts above regarding the sanctuary saying "Sorry, you fail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.00 Go straight to purgatory".
I have to agree that the texts would be a problem in that case.
My intent was to show the Bible statements on the definition and function of the temple in heaven. On earth God stated a similar point with the temple defining "Atonement" in Lev 16 for example and explaining the death of Christ as Paul points out in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Exodus 25:8
And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
God provides for the intercessor - the mediator between God and man in the temple on earth - and that same function is found for Christ in the temple in heaven.
in Christ,
Bob
I have to agree that the texts would be a problem in that case.
My intent was to show the Bible statements on the definition and function of the temple in heaven. On earth God stated a similar point with the temple defining "Atonement" in Lev 16 for example and explaining the death of Christ as Paul points out in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Exodus 25:8
And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
God provides for the intercessor - the mediator between God and man in the temple on earth - and that same function is found for Christ in the temple in heaven.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
Bob, why are you afraid, or so reluctant to give a Biblical definition of the word "temple"? The definition is not found in Revelation where that book is full of imagery, symbols, and is apocalyptic literature.
I am asking a very simple question. Dr. Walter has helped you out to put you on the right track. A very straight forward answer will do.
What is a temple?
What is the primary purpose of a temple?
Do you think you can answer these simple questions?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK gives the Catholic answer for the texts above regarding the sanctuary as follows
I have to agree that the texts would be a problem in that case.
My intent was to show the Bible statements on the definition and function of the temple in heaven. On earth God stated a similar point with the temple defining "Atonement" in Lev 16 for example and explaining the death of Christ as Paul points out in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Exodus 25:8
And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
God provides for the intercessor - the mediator between God and man in the temple on earth - and that same function is found for Christ in the temple in heaven.
I see - so "this" is biblical??
By contrast the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: (Revelation 15:5)
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Revelation 15:6)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15:8)
The objective unbiased Bible student quickly notices that this is a real heavenly Sanctuary that Christ enters IN and that Angels come out of.
It is the place where Christ ministers as the One Mediator between God and man - 1Tim 2:5
DHK may argue that these are just so many texts to be ignored on this topic - but many Bible students will differ with him at that point.
in Christ,
Bob
.
I have to agree that the texts would be a problem in that case.
My intent was to show the Bible statements on the definition and function of the temple in heaven. On earth God stated a similar point with the temple defining "Atonement" in Lev 16 for example and explaining the death of Christ as Paul points out in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Exodus 25:8
And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.
God provides for the intercessor - the mediator between God and man in the temple on earth - and that same function is found for Christ in the temple in heaven.
I see - so "this" is biblical??
.
By contrast the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: (Revelation 15:5)
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Revelation 15:6)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15:8)
The objective unbiased Bible student quickly notices that this is a real heavenly Sanctuary that Christ enters IN and that Angels come out of.
It is the place where Christ ministers as the One Mediator between God and man - 1Tim 2:5
DHK may argue that these are just so many texts to be ignored on this topic - but many Bible students will differ with him at that point.
in Christ,
Bob
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DHK will argue that Bob Ryan can't answer a simple question that any person in junior high school knows the answer to. Pitiful!!
So, to put it in simple words, Bob says: "No, I am unable to answer a simple question that any junior high school student can answer." That is a pitiful state to be in Bob. I feel sorry for you.I prefer the bible answer for your question rather than just making stuff up -- I am funny that way.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
OK DHK - let me know which text you struggle with below and I will gladly help you out.
================
By contrast the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: (Revelation 15:5)
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. (Revelation 15:6)
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15:8)
The objective unbiased Bible student quickly notices that this is a real heavenly Sanctuary that Christ enters IN and that Angels come out of.
It is the place where Christ ministers as the One Mediator between God and man - 1Tim 2:5
DHK may argue that these are just so many texts to be ignored on this topic - but many Bible students will differ with him at that point.
in Christ,
Bob
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I don't struggle with any text Bob. I feel sorry for you that you are unable to come up with a simple definition of the word "temple."
The Bible does not define most theological terms.
It does not define "trinity."
It does not define "church."
Concept after concept it does not define. We come up with the definitions after reading the Scripture and our study of it. I pity your inability to answer simple questions, and more truthfully your deliberate refusal to do so. It is not in the nature of debate to be so stubborn. If you don't want to engage in intelligent debate, as you have shown to others then why do you stay here?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Our Great High Preist's seat is the throne of God in heaven. Thus we see that the mercy seat in the most holiest in the temple on earth is a type of God's throne in heaven. Thus the angels in the curtains and on the lid on earth are types of the angels that surround the throne in heaven. Simple enough. Hence, the throne must be in the the sanctuary, the angels must be in the sanctuary.
However, there are "things" in heaven that must be cleansed by the blood of Christ! What are those "things? that need cleansing in heaven? What was the blood applied to in the temple on earth and what do those things represent? Does sin exist in heaven? Does uncleaness exist in heaven? Does God dwell with sin and uncleaness in heaven? Can sin exist in heaven? What in heaven needs to be cleansed from sin? Revelation 5:9 answers that question. The four beasts and the 24 elders claim to be "redeemed" and washed by the blood of the Lamb. The Great multitude in Revelation 7 claim to be WASHED by the blood of the Lamb. Can you find anything else in heaven needing to be cleansed in the book of Revelation? No!
The twenty four elders and four beast claim to represent all the elect from all nations, kindreds, tongues and tribes (Rev. 5:9). The twenty-four elders and the four beasts represent all those things needing cleansing.
However, all the elect are not in heaven when the book of hebrews was written were they? However, all the elect were not in heaven when the book of Revelation was written were they? How were they cleansed then in heaven? Revelation 4-5 gives a preview of the finished work of redemption as the final verses of chapter 5 declare that every creature on earth, under the earth and in heaven are singing the praises of the Lamb. TWhen does that actually happen in time and space? Not now! Not before judgement! When? This is a vision of the completed work of redemption and all creation under the rule of God as in Revelation 21-22:3. Jesus begins with this vision of complete victory before He describes the processes (chs. 6-20) to accomplish that victory.
So what John sees in Revelation 4 is a REVELATION communicated in signs of God ruling and the completed work of redemption and the redeemed already crowned and reigning and all creation in submission to God. The rainbow around the throne communicates in sign that the wrath of God is past and the victory has been won through the redemption by the Lamb (Rev 5).
But what is the sanctuary? The writer of Hebrews says
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
What is being contrasted with "the holy places made with hands which are a figure of the true"?????? ? Answer "BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF!" Was heaven made with hands? Wait there is more - "IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD."
Remember, DHK asked you a simple question - "what is the purpose of a temple." The answer is very simple. The purpose of the earthly temple was to REVEAL GOD IN HIS ETERNAL COVENANT WORK OF REDEMPTION. That is the design for the tabernacle and temple. That is the truth behind all of typology in all of its intricate parts. This is what was revealed in signs to John in the book of Revelation. That is one reason the book is called "THE REVELATION."
The "temple" in heaven is the REVELATION OF GOD CARRYING OUT THE ETERNAL COVENANT WORK OF REDEMPTION. That is the better temple in heaven.
In the book of Revelation The REVELATION OF GOD IN THE ETERNAL COVENANT WORK OF REDEMPTION is communicated in SIGNS taken from the temple on earth because the temple on earth is designed to communicate in types THE REVELATION OF GOD IN THE ETERNAL COVENANT WORK OF REDEMPTION. Hence, if you understand the FIGURE on earth you understand the REALITY in heaven. So John communicates the REALITY in heaven through the FIGURES on earth.
The writer of Hebrews after each mention of the temple in heaven immediately begins describing different aspects of the REVELATION OF GOD IN THE ETERNAL WORK OF REDEMPTON in Hebrews 7-10 as he describes the and concludes with it in Hebrews 13:20.
Where do the saints go when they die? The writer of Hebrews defines where they are in Hebrews 12:22-25. John defines where the "souls" of the Martyrs are in Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 7:9-14 state they are before the throne.
The book of Revelation communicates this reveals this reality in heaven through the use of signs taken from all parts of the Old Testament including temple descriptions. For example, the congregations on earth are represented by lampstands in the holy place with Christ walking in their midst ON EARTH. For example the altar of incense in the holy place representative of the reality of the PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS on earth. For example the temple representative of the reality of the revelation of God and His eternal covenant work of redemption being carried out ON EARTH from heaven.
Yes, he saw the temple in heaven, like he saw the woman clothed with the Sun and twleve stars in heaven (Rom. 12:1) just like he saw a red dragon in heaven. He saw all of these but they are realities communicated in SIGNS. The temple and the opening and closing, angels going out and all the activities REVEAL GOD IN CARRYING OUT HIS ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION in reclaiming His creation.
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scriptmemory
Member
scriptmemory
Member
I believe Walter meant Rev. 12:1, not Rom. 12:1. In any case a woman and a serpent are prophetic symbols used in both the Old and New Testaments and clearly there was a physical temple BOTH in the Old and New Testament sections of the Bible.
The fact of the LAMB being a REAL PERSON in Revelation 14:1 yet employed as a SYMBOL in Revelation has not been addressed with relation to the pillar in the TEMPLE of Revelation 3:12.
Revelation 21:22 never says "I didn't see a temple in heaven", and those worried about verses ripped out of context (violent language which I'm not sure I would apply here) should not understand that the present "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." isn't speaking about something in the New Earth as the chapter starts, but now.
Here's a warning about going "back" to the future—
We should not say:
The Person on the throne said it's done now. Let's not tell anyone about the Gospel and there will be no more shed tears because He has wiped them away (vs. 4) and the former things are passed away!
When John sees the need to say "I saw no temple therein" after telling us about the temple in heaven until Rev. 21 the context is in the New Earth (vs. 1).
You two really have a hard time defining terms in your own words! What is the matter? Does the cat have your tongue?? Do we need to communicate in a different language? I am not asking for quotations from books.
I am asking for your definition. What do you believe a temple is, and what do you believe is the purpose of a temple is?
Are you up to this challenge yet. I know some children that can answer the questions just posed.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul answers the question this way -
Heb 9
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary is done to resolve the sin problem just as God's Lev 16 "model" indicates on the Day of Atonement.
God points to the fact that the sanctuary is first inaugurated, then the Holy Place ministry takes place - and then this is followed by the Most Holy place ministry.
In Lev 16 the sanctuary is not "washed". Rather the blood of the sin offering - the Lord's goat is applied to the sanctuary, the altar AND the people on the day of Atonement according to Lev 16.
Daniel 8 answers the question "Unto evening morning 2300 and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed". Christ's High Priestly work in the Holy Place ended as per Daniel's timeline prophecy and Christ's High Priestly work of cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began at the end of the 2300 years predicted by Daniel 8.
in Christ,
Bob
scriptmemory
Member
Strong has a good grasp of Hebrew and Greek. Would you prefer another source for looking at the original words? That is what I believe the words temple and sanctuary overall mean. If you differ, please demonstrate your superior knowledge of these languages to Strong's.
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It is apparent to all those reading these posts that since you cannot verbalize the simplest of concepts in this topic that we are discussing, and that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. The failure to have the ability to even discuss terminology related to this thread demonstrates how little knowledge you have about the subject material at hand. You are great at copying and pasting. Is that your forte?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God is in His Holy Temple - according to Scripture. This was also the case in the earthly sanctuary.
God's temple is in heaven itself - the text does not say "God's temple IS heaven itself" as some might have imagined.
Notice
the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Indeed it is.
The sanctuary on earth is where sacrifices were made where the blood was brought, where sinners met with their intercessor, where atonement was made, where the place of God's dwelling was located - where the people looked for forgiveness of sins - atonement.
The sanctuary on earth provided a predictive lense - predicting the Sacrifice of Christ "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain" 1Cor 5. Christ was slain not only AS the Passover lamb - but ON the very day of Passover.
Christ was RAISED not only AS the first fruits of the dead (1Cor 1) but ON the very day of First Fruits - the Sunday after Passover (Friday).
Even so the Day of Atonement service in heaven began not only AS Lev 16 predicts but it began WHEN Dan 8 predicts and ON the very day of the Lev 16 Day of Atonement in the year that Dan 8 specifies.
And as Dan 7 points out - WHEN the ancient of days comes AND the judgment is finally passed in favor of the saints -- all persecution of the saints will end and the 2nd coming will take place with the saints taking possession of their promised inheritance.
-----
The sanctuary in heaven is the PLACE WHERE God's throne is - where the Angels are - where the judgment takes place in Dan 7:9-10 and it is WHERE Christ goes in Dan 7:13-14 and is the place where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" in Dan 7:22 which results in the saints taking possession of their inheritance at the 2nd coming.
The Sanctuary in heaven serves to prove through the books of record and comparison to the Law of God - that the Gospel of Christ is fully sufficient - that it answers all questions - and that the saints are to be vindicated, justified, made right in the context of the court room setting God describes in Dan 7:9-10.
It is the center for explaining the Gospel solution for sin to the myriads and myriads assembled in Dan 7:9.
It is the place in which Christ is "The one Mediator between God and man" 1Tim 2:4.
It is the place in which we find "our Advocate with the Father" 1John 2:1.
It is the place where we "go boldly" having confidence to "enter within the veil" Hebrews 10.
The SEVEN lamp stands of heaven's Sanctuary (in Rev 1) are contrasted to the ONE lampstand in the earthly temple. Represent the Spirit of God according to God's Word in Rev 1.
The Altar of Incense in heaven is the place of intercession where Christ offers up the prayers and petitions of the saints and the Holy Spirit Himself "intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words".
The ark of the Testimony (Rev 11) in heaven is in the Most Holy Place.
in Christ,
Bob
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