How?
In what manner can one member of the trinity forsake another member?
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Atonement Continued
- Thread starter JonC
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In what manner can one member of the trinity forsake another member?
@37818
This is a perfect example of what I mean:
What is presented in the quote above is Penal Substitution Theory, but it is not actually found in God's Word.
That said, it is so ingrained in many of our traditions we cling to it like some used to cling to there being three wise men, or the "inn" in Bethlehem being a literal hotel.
What the BB has shown me is there are people, like you, who may disagree but are honest and willing to at least try to understand different views.
And then there are people who just offer their opinions without even trying to rely on Scripture.
You and I may never agree on this topic, but I do hope you will at least continue trying to understand the Classic view of the Cross. I suspect one day you and I may actually have come to an agreement. If not, that's fine too. Family is bound by a common Father, not always common understandings.
This is a perfect example of what I mean:
What is presented in the quote above is Penal Substitution Theory, but it is not actually found in God's Word.
That said, it is so ingrained in many of our traditions we cling to it like some used to cling to there being three wise men, or the "inn" in Bethlehem being a literal hotel.
What the BB has shown me is there are people, like you, who may disagree but are honest and willing to at least try to understand different views.
And then there are people who just offer their opinions without even trying to rely on Scripture.
You and I may never agree on this topic, but I do hope you will at least continue trying to understand the Classic view of the Cross. I suspect one day you and I may actually have come to an agreement. If not, that's fine too. Family is bound by a common Father, not always common understandings.
37818
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ."
Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ."
Romans 5:8, ". . . Christ died for us. . . ."
1 Corinthians 15:3, ". . . that Christ died for our sins . . . ."
This is what is called and defined as the penal substitution atonement.
37818
Well-Known Member
I hear your arguments. And I am failing to really understand them. The closest thing I can do is to simply premise PSA is not true and based on said premise not acknowdge any Scripture aruments alleged to support PSA as not supporting PSA.
If you call Penal Substitution the teaching that
the soul that sinneth shall die, the wages of sin is death, Christ poured out His soul unto death, Christ died for us, christ died for our sins (I'll assume He became a curse for us, bore our sins, and by His stripes we are healed) then good for you. I absolutely agree with that teaching.
The part that is unbiblical is that God punished Jesus instead of us and that Christ experienced God's wrath. That is what I mean by Penal Substitution Theory. But I absolutely agree with the teaching you ate calling Penal Substitution.
Interestingly enough, even Augustine, who taught that the idea Christ's death appeased God was a heresy, also affirmed the teaching you call Penal Substitution. I suspect all Christians believe the teaching you call Penal Substitution even though most reject Penal Substitution Theory.
Start with Genesis 3.
The lost sinner is not propitiated for. Christ IS the Propitiation for the sins of the world. Sin is propitiated. We escape the wrath to come in Christ.
We were reconciled through Christ's death, saved by His life.
Again...are you Yeshua1?
for I am not ashamed of the good news (gospel see 1 Cor 15:1,3,4 for meaning) of the Christ, for it (That in parenthesis) is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek. For the righteousness of God in it (That in parenthesis) is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, 'And the righteous one* by (out of) faith shall live,' for revealed (?In all that preceding?) is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness. Romans 1:16-18
Romans 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for (sake of) the impious;
* Did the one and only, righteous one, to come in the flesh, die, not have life, be in need of, out of faith to live? Jesus of Nazareth?
Acts 3:13-15 'The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, did glorify His child Jesus, whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, he having given judgment to release him, and ye the Holy and Righteous One did deny, and desired a man -- a murderer -- to be granted to you, and the Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses;
for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
How was the wrath of God revealed?
Romans 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for (sake of) the impious;
* Did the one and only, righteous one, to come in the flesh, die, not have life, be in need of, out of faith to live? Jesus of Nazareth?
Acts 3:13-15 'The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, did glorify His child Jesus, whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, he having given judgment to release him, and ye the Holy and Righteous One did deny, and desired a man -- a murderer -- to be granted to you, and the Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses;
for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
How was the wrath of God revealed?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How was the wrath of God revealed? is not the correct question here. It is against whom was it revealed and we see the answer in the text, "those who by their wickedness suppress the truth". The blood of Christ Jesus was the atonement for the sins of humanity and God accepted that blood as full payment.
Man reviled and hated Christ, man rejected Him, man crucified Him, man called for His blood but God accepted His blood as an expiation for our sins.
Here is where we need clearly defined terms. To be forsaken of God is not meaning He has left Him alone, as that's an impossibility, as God is omnipresent. What it means to be forsaken by God is for Him to remove His divine favor from Him. When Christ was forsaken by His Father, He was not absent from Calvary, but rather, His divine favor was lifted from His Son and they dealt with Him accordingly.
"Forsaken" means "lifting favor"?
Why not allow Sripture to interpret Scripture? In particular, Psalm 22 foretells the Cross. The Servant cries out "why have You forsaken me?" As He is not delivered from suffering. As we continue in the Psalm the Servant is relying on the faithfulness of God, and recounts how God never abandons His people.
It turns out (in the Psalm) that the Servant is suffering under the oppression of the wicked. But
God delivers Him, vindicated Him, and "they will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!"
37818
Well-Known Member
Then that aspect cannot be part of the atonement. Even though the perishing lost receive the unquenchable fire (Matthew 25:41), Christ did not give His soul to redeem the Devil or angels.
37818
Well-Known Member
Actually Genesis 2:17. In Genesis 3 Eve tells the serpent what God told both Adam and Eve. She had not yet eaten of that tree. And it was the knowlege of good and evil for which they would die death (Genesis 3:22, Genesis 3:5). The serpent lied to Eve, Genesis 3:4, ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ." Therefore murdering Adam and Eve (John 8:44, ". . . . He was a murderer from the beginning, . . ."). So all decendants of Adam and Eve would be conceved in sin and therefore be born sinners. Christ was not conceved in sin by reason that knowledge was of His divine nature (Luke 18:19, John 1:10, Genesis 3:22).
This is off topic and I know it is, but I am having a very difficult time locating a verse in the Bible.
Can anyone find that verse that states that humanity owes a debt to God?
Again, this isn't pertaining to the thread, but my own vain search and making an appeal for a bit of help.
I can find the verses for "require" such as Micah 6:8.
I looked over what the internet offers and such as desire verses are shown. Here is a group listed by: What Does the Bible Say About God Desires Us?
But to no avail am I finding anything that states "humans owe a debt to God."
Any help is appreciated!
Can anyone find that verse that states that humanity owes a debt to God?
Again, this isn't pertaining to the thread, but my own vain search and making an appeal for a bit of help.
I can find the verses for "require" such as Micah 6:8.
I looked over what the internet offers and such as desire verses are shown. Here is a group listed by: What Does the Bible Say About God Desires Us?
But to no avail am I finding anything that states "humans owe a debt to God."
Any help is appreciated!
I agree. The idea that God punished Christ instead of us, and the idea that Christ experienced God's wrath in our place cannot be a part of the Atonement because it is not a part of God's Word.
The lost are already condemned. And the judgment is the Light has come into the world and they rejected the Light. And they will be judged. But all judgment has been given to Christ.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
While not EXPLICIT, Romans 1 is clearly IMPLICIT that those condemned SHOULD have done what they did not do:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Men owe God respect and gratitude, a debt for the shortfall.
37818
Well-Known Member
Either you did not understand the distinction on how Christ is a subsitute for the lost and not the devil and angels or you did and we do not agree. Or I am not understanding your "I agree."
I may have misunderstood you. Where did the idea of angels and the devil cone in?
Christ was not a substitute for them....or us. He suffered for our dibs, not instead of us. He is our representative (the "Last Adam").
37818
Well-Known Member
Matthew 25:41.
Yes, I agree that Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. I don't get what you are talking about Jesus dying (or not dying) as their substitute. Did anybody say Jesus died for the devil? I think I missed something on this thread.
Man is reconciled to God by Christ's death, and men are saved through His life. Satan and his angles play no part in our redemption.
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