Atonement Continued

[37818]

angels. I don't get what you are talking about Jesus dying (or not dying) as their substitute. Did anybody say Jesus died for the devil? I think I missed something on this thread.

The soul that sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. The wages of sin being death, Romans 6;23. Christ bearing our sin, He gave His soul, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:12. When the lost soul dies, there is unquenchable fire, Mark 9:48. When Christ's soul had died, Psalms 22:1 and Psalms 22:6 there was no fire.

 

[JonC]

The soul that sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. The wages of sin being death. Christ bearing our sin, He gave His soul, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:12. When the lost soul dies, there is unquenchable fire, Mark 9:48. When Christ's soul had died, Psalms 22:1 and Psalms 22:6 there was no fire.

The wages of sin is death. But this is a physical death - the flesh (1 Cor. 15).

I agree that the "wrath of God" against sinners is not what Christ experienced but is instead the "second death".

 

[37818]

The wages of sin is death. But this is a physical death - the flesh (1 Cor. 15).

Not so.
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Both the death of the body and soul.
Now Christ's death of His soul on the cross, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." And this payment was paid in full before John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Which is what was said by Jesus, "It is finished" just before Jesus physically died, John 19:30.

 

[agedman]

Not so.
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Both the death of the body and soul.
Now Christ's death of His soul on the cross, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." And this payment was paid in full before John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Which is what was said by Jesus, "It is finished" just before Jesus physically died, John 19:30.

The judgement, according to the Scriptures is after death, not before. Prior to death, the unbeliever is already condemned, but the sentence waits until physical death occurs.

All sin, so certainly the “soul that sins will die.” For all die, but after, the believers pass from death to life and unbelievers from death to torment.

are we not all in agreement that the death of these verses is the physical body ceasing to be viable?

 

[JonC]

Not so.
Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Both the death of the body and soul.
Now Christ's death of His soul on the cross, Isaiah 53:12, ". . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." And this payment was paid in full before John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Which is what was said by Jesus, "It is finished" just before Jesus physically died, John 19:30.

If you look, "soul" in Ezekiel means a living being.

Christ died a physical death. His soul did not die. It is appointed to men once to die and then the judgment. Christ died a physical death (as we all will) and was judged righteous....vindicated by the Father, and is seated at His right hand.

Nowhere in Scripture is God said to punish Christ instead of us. In fact, had God done this then He would be unrighteous (according to Scripture). He would be a false god.

Nowhere in Scripture is Christ said to have experienced God's wrath. In fact, had He experienced God's wrath it would be impossible for man to be reconciled to God. He is trust in the Father would have been unfounded (per Scripture....i.e., Psalm 22).

 

[37818]

Christ died a physical death. His soul did not die.

Then you would have no atonement, Isaiah 53:12. And what ever Jesus said was finished, was finished according to the Greek text in John was finished before John 19:28 at that.

This Greek word τετελεσται in its grammar, as used in this form in the New Testament, only occurs twice. And it has been understood to mean paid in full in regard to the atonement.

 

[JonC]

Then you would have no atonement, Isaiah 53:12. And what ever Jesus said was finished, was finished according to the Greek text in John was finished before John 19:28 at that.

This Greek word τετελεσται in its grammar, as used in this form in the New Testament, only occurs twice. And it has been understood to mean paid in full in regard to the atonement.

No. You DO have Atonement. The word we translate as "atonement" means reconciliation ("at-one-ment").

Christ's death reconciled man to God. This was a "redemption" of man. Men are saved through His life.

Christ "shared in our infirmity". He did not take away "our infirmity" but rendered it powerless (freed us from its bonds, took away it's "sting", became a "Life Giving Spirit").

Christ died for our sins according to Scripture, not according to Penal Substitution Theory.

We have talked about what Scripture does not say.

What does Scripture tell us? It tells us God will not substitute the righteous for the guilty, as this is an abomination. It tells us the righteous will never experience God's wrath, even in suffering and death. This was a major theme of the OT.

 

[agedman]

Then you would have no atonement, Isaiah 53:12. And what ever Jesus said was finished, was finished according to the Greek text in John was finished before John 19:28 at that.

This Greek word τετελεσται in its grammar, as used in this form in the New Testament, only occurs twice. And it has been understood to mean paid in full in regard to the atonement.

The "soul" as you mean it would be the fleshly death then, If I have read you correctly.

Certainly the soul of Christ (physical body) ceased vitality - yet remained without corruption in the grave for it was pure and innocent.

However the Isaiah 53:12 mentions how that the Lord went to paradise - having been numbered as one of the transgressors at Calvary. and there gave His spirit to the Father while his soul - flesh - died.

However, I have been thinking through the cause of His death.

No man could take it from Him, and He had to lay it down - I suppose that is to be taken as to give it up as it is referred to at the crucifixion.

So, did the "wages of sin" apply to the Saviour?

I think that such did not.

 

[37818]

No. You DO have Atonement. The word we translate as "atonement" means reconciliation ("at-one-ment").

Christ's death reconciled man to God. This was a "redemption" of man. Men are saved through His life.

Christ "shared in our infirmity". He did not take away "our infirmity" but rendered it powerless (freed us from its bonds, took away it's "sting", became a "Life Giving Spirit").

Christ died for our sins according to Scripture, not according to Penal Substitution Theory.

We have talked about what Scripture does not say.

What does Scripture tell us? It tells us God will not substitute the righteous for the guilty, as this is an abomination. It tells us the righteous will never experience God's wrath, even in suffering and death. This was a major theme of the OT.

You did not address what I answered. The death of Jesus' soul in Isaiah 53:12. And what ever Jesus said was "finished" in John 19:30 having been finished before John 19:28? τετελεσται meaning what?

 

[JonC]

You did not address what I answered. The death of Jesus' soul in Isaiah 53:12. And what ever Jesus said was "finished" in John 19:30 having been finished before John 19:28? τετελεσται meaning what?

I think you are looking for what is not there.

Jesus died (as Isaiah 53:12 says He poured out Himself unto death). Jesus knew all was accomplished and said "it is finished", and gave up His Spirit (He died).

Do you think if His death was a part of the "finishing" Christ would have died and then said "it is finished"?

Scripture was written as a narrative to be understood, not as a cipher to be decoded. The mystery of Scripture is in its simplicity (some find it foolish and dismiss it as myth, others find it foolish and decide it means something other other than is written), its application (that is, its spiritual nature), and its perfection (it does not need our theories).

 

[37818]

I think you are looking for what is not there.

Jesus died (as Isaiah 53:12 says He poured out Himself unto death). Jesus knew all was accomplished and said "it is finished", and gave up His Spirit (He died).

Do you think if His death was a part of the "finishing" Christ would have died and then said "it is finished"?

The atonement was paid in full before Jesus' physical death. His physical death being for the purpose of His bodily resurrection. John 19:28, John 19:30.

 

[JonC]

The atonement was paid in full before Jesus' physical death. His physical death being for the purpose of His bodily resurrection. John 19:28, John 19:30.

The atonement was through Christ's death and our salvation through His life (Romans 5:10; 2 Cor 5:14-15).

 

[37818]

The atonement was through Christ's death and our salvation through His life (Romans 5:10; 2 Cor 5:14-15).

The death of His soul through His shed blood. Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." This was finished before His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . that all things were now accomplished . . . ."

 

[37818]

If you look, "soul" in Ezekiel means a living being.

Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Both the body and soul die in Hell.

 

[agedman]

Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Both the body and soul die in Hell.

I need to correct a misconception that I gave you, and I do so most certainly apologize.

I was using what I perceived as your use of "soul" pertaining to the flesh, and the physical.

I should not have done that for I do believe it may have allowed error.

The soul, as used in the Scripture is the eternal, and was started when God breathed into Adam the eternal Breath of life.

The soul is not as God, for God has no beginning, but is eternal. We have a beginning and yet from our start are indeed also an eternal soul.

Again, I apologize for attempting to use what I perceived as your thinking rather then making correct declaration at the beginning.

Btw, I also noticed that on the Web, there are also those who make this same mistake, and so it isn't an unusual one.

I would offer this warning.
You mentioned that "Both the body and soul die in Hell."
Are you presenting the "soul annihilation" view?

Be careful, for this teaching is banned on the BB. Or at least at one time it was.

Do not be entrapped by this heretical thinking.

I don't think you are, but I wanted to make you aware.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
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[JonC]

Matthew 10:28, ". . . fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Both the body and soul die in Hell.

The issue is you are approaching Scripture as a type of science book. Sometimes "soul" means literally "a living being" (particularly in the OT passages). Sometimes soul means spirit. For some there is also the issue of soul, body, and spirit.

An interesting thought is if you lose a limb are you less you, less a living being? Is the loss of a body part a type of death? The answer to both is no. We think of physical death scientifically. It is the person dying physically. It is dying in the flesh (the spirit or soul leaving the body).

We see the same with Paul and James' ideas of works.

My point is that Scripture has to interpret Scripture. In Romans and Corinthians it is very clear that the atonement for man is Christ's physical death. Paul literally says that atonement for man is Christ's death, and emphasizes this point by telling us this is what will occur with us (a physical death and a bodily resurrection).

Anyway, this is actually a different topic. My main point here was discussing Penal Substitution Theory against biblical Christian belief.

 

[Salty]

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