Attitutudinal Issues

[bapmom]

All About Grace....

Ive got lots of grace, otherwise I wouldn't be saved.

And no, defensiveness does not always come from reality.......you'd not agree to that if I pointed out how defensive you're being.

My standards ARE higher than others.....that is not making a comment on whether they are more spiritual or not. Its a term used to differentiate between one set and another set.

The Amish and Mennonite have even higher standards than I do, but that doesn't mean that theirs are more spiritual than mine.

If that is your experience than you should be saying it was that way IN YOUR CHURCH, but instead you've imputed it to MOST of IFB. According to what you've said so far you had an experience in one church. Ive had many experiences in many different types, kinds, and ilks of churches.

Still, most of the things you describe as being a negative aspect in your experience at your church, are things that you've INTERPRETED to be that way. Things that you could only know if you knew their motives and their hearts. You SEEM to have imputed to them ideas and notions that you don't agree with, and so you now portray them in a very negative light.

Forgive me if Ive taken it too far, but Ive seen people do this before with people I KNOW, and I KNOW and understand the reasonings behind the standards and the rules....and it isn't what the person is saying.

Like the guy who used to come to our church but quit because he said our preacher wears $500.00 suits. A) our preacher does NOT own five hundred dollar suits, and B) who cares if he did? How does he know a nice suit wasn't GIVEN to the pastor?

There are so many people who just read things into what they are seeing without a benefit of a doubt.

Thats all we ask for.

 

[All about Grace]

I saw your church's website ... no further explanation needed.

God bless.

 

[jarhed]

Originally posted by bapmom:
I hardly ever (if at all) hear the same sort of judgements about NON-IFBs that I heard from the "other" side about IFBs.

Isn't it funny that the "Bab Attitude" I am supposed to have was immediately REFLECTED in a supposed insult to my intelligence after my first post? Wow, that was Christ-like. By the way, the fellow that INSULTED me for my name needs to do a little reading. But I digress. Your point is extremely valid. Our Church is very independent. We are uncompromising in our doctrine. We CONTEND for the faith...but you know what, we don't have time to FIGHT PEOPLE. Our enemy is KILLING the souls of men eternally, while the price for thier regeneration has already been fully paid...THAT must be our cause. The souls of lost men is the only reason for me to remain on this planet! I could be a much better "christian" if I were out of this wretched body of sin. The thing I have distinctly noticed is the dead churches with dusty alters and dry babtistries are the folks ripping on me. I am not ripping on anyone but the Devil and the sin he fomented on my race...I am sorry, I just don't have time to have the bad attitude I am accused of or even to fight against my accusers. Now why don't we all go out and tell someone about the Saviour?

 

[bapmom]

My church's website?? What are you talking about, All About Grace??

I don't have my church's website up in my profile, and what do you mean by that comment?

It sounds like you need to get a ReAL dose of real graciousness.

 

[bapmom]

See now, I was thinking about this more. I'd be a bit more inclined to admit to the foibles and follies we IFBs are prone to, if it was at all safe to do so on this board.

Its not safe for us IFBs to admit anything like that here, because if we do we feel like we will be harangued and gloated over.

Now, perhaps this is a misperception on our part. But let me tell you, it comes, at least in part, from our actual real experiences we have here AND other places where many different Baptists gather. This board is by no means the only place, and it in most areas is not the worst. Ive met some fine Christians who I don't even know what kind of Baptist they might be.

But you need to understand why we get on the defensive.

All About Grace's last comment, referring to my church's website in a vague yet derogatory and condescending manner.....how is that being more about God's grace? In any way, shape or form?

I just rechecked my church's website, btw, to be sure that no one got in there and slung all sorts of nasty hateful remarks on there which would lead someone to think we are an "awful" group of people. Nope....just a nice quiet unassuming website.....

So Im sorry if Im a bit defensive....I don't believe my defensiveness has turned into my calling names, or being rude or condescending to anyone. If so, Im sorry, it was not my intention.

Please, if you all just lighten up on us IFBs it would do alot to alleviate the situation. Remember too, it will take us some time to react in an open, non-defensive way. Its a conditioned response.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If it is the website I found by googling I think Grace's comments are quite unfair.

I find that attitudidinal problems go both ways.

Swindoll in "The Grace Awakening" had had much of an attitude against fundementalists as he accused them of having.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by C4K:
If it is the website I found by googling I think Grace's comments are quite unfair.

I find that attitudidinal problems go both ways.

Swindoll in "The Grace Awakening" had had much of an attitude against fundementalists as he accused them of having.

Agreed, C4K. In another case, Jack Van Impe left fundamentalism in a huff and then wrote his book slamming fundamentalists, some good godly men. In that book, Heart Disease in Christ's Body (1984), he essentially criticized these men for his perception that they were criticizing people. Go figure!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It appears to be acceptable to have an attitude as long are you are critical of fundamentalists

 

[All about Grace]

I didn't mean that remark in a derogatory manner. I simply meant that I now know why you hold the positions you do. If your church is not the Faith BC of Greater Milwaukee with a staff full of HAC graduates then I apologize. If it is, then I stand by my position. Not intended to be mean or negative - simply reality. I encourage you again...stick by your guns. No reason to be so defensive, but also recognize that whenever you chose to align yourself with certain groups, you chose to accept affiliation with what that group symbolizes and entails.

I stand by what I believe and welcome any objections to my positions. I am more than able to stand firm in my own beliefs and practices regardless of whether someone considers my standards "higher" or "lower".

Why would I write something derogatory on your website??? Everyone is not out to get you. Just recognize the consequence of who you associate with.

Thank God grace is big enough for all of us -- fundies included. I know - I was one.

 

[All about Grace]

Just a quick question for everyone on this subject matter -- how would you characterize the attitude of Jesus toward the religious fundamentalists of his day???

Just wondering.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Jesus was a fundementalist, He fully accepted all of the fundamentals of the word of God.

 

[Bro Tony]

True Roger, but you would have to admit that he was not seen as one by those who would have been considered the fundamentalist of that day. I believe He was seen as more of a radical. This shows us that terminology is determined by who is speaking.

Many on here would not consider me a fundamental because I pastor a SBC church. But I assure you that I believe and teach the fundamentals of the faith. But in today's world that is not what the word fundamental means.

Bro Tony

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
I didn't mean that remark in a derogatory manner. I simply meant that I now know why you hold the positions you do. If your church is not the Faith BC of Greater Milwaukee with a staff full of HAC graduates then I apologize. If it is, then I stand by my position. Not intended to be mean or negative - simply reality. I encourage you again...stick by your guns. No reason to be so defensive, but also recognize that whenever you chose to align yourself with certain groups, you chose to accept affiliation with what that group symbolizes and entails.


I stand by what I believe and welcome any objections to my positions. I am more than able to stand firm in my own beliefs and practices regardless of whether someone considers my standards "higher" or "lower".

Why would I write something derogatory on your website??? Everyone is not out to get you. Just recognize the consequence of who you associate with.

Thank God grace is big enough for all of us -- fundies included. I know - I was one.

No sir All About Grace,

I did not mean that YOU would write bad stuff....I meant that if someone ELSE had gotten in there and hacked the site perhaps you got the wrong impression. I thought I might be taken the wrong way on that, and I tried to be clear, but I apologize for the misunderstanding there.

However, yes, my church is FBC of Greater Milwaukee, and you call TWO out of FIVE staff members "full"? Let me reiterate....only two out of 5 of the church staff went to HAC for any length of time, and neither of them are the Pastor or the Assistant Pastor. Our Pastor and Assistant Pastor (the only paid staff) did NOT go to HAC, they both went to Maranatha Baptist Bible College in Watertown. That being said, I really would have no reason to apologize for any of our staff having gone to HAC. The church I described as being "my" church is still the one that you had no problem with, and its "full of HAC people."
What my "group" symbolizes and entails is really the same things as your group does. We do not see HAC as the "Promised Land" of Fundamentalism, although I know there are some who do have that attitude amongst our "camp." I can't stand that attitude and its a pet peeve of mine......and its something that also bothers my preacher. He said it again last night......

Again, if you are going to use HAC as your example of Fundies who have gone bad, how come my church which is supposedly full of them is NOT like the church you described?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
True Roger, but you would have to admit that he was not seen as one by those who would have been considered the fundamentalist of that day. I believe He was seen as more of a radical. This shows us that terminology is determined by who is speaking.

Many on here would not consider me a fundamental because I pastor a SBC church. But I assure you that I believe and teach the fundamentals of the faith. But in today's world that is not what the word fundamental means.

Bro Tony

I can't let a corruption of the word "fundamentalist" affect my use of it. I am a true fundamentalist. That does not make me angry, divisive. legalistic, hateful, or having an attitude.

A true fundamentalist is Christ-like in his demeanour for his desire is to live according to the word of God, not a set a man-made rules and regulations.

I am a fundamentalist - that does not mean I am a Pharisee as implied in a previous post.

 

[bapmom]

But your question about Jesus was in regards to the "religious" fundamentalists of His day....not the BIBLICAL fundamentalists. We aren't relying on our "religion" any more than any of the rest of ya'all. Of course there will be some, as in any group, who place their own standards as the requirement for salvation, but we should not be defined as such. Its unfair to define the entire group by its fringes.

Ok, I used to think that ALL SBCers believed in water baptism as a part of salvation. THATS why we didn't think of you as fundamental anymore, and its why we'd most likely consider it a compromising position to take. We see it as a doctrinal issue. Yet is that belief a "fringe element" in the SBC? Remember, I got that idea about the SBC from NON-IFBs. If it IS indeed a fringe element than its not fair of us to judge ALL SBCdom by that measure, right? (Unless you want to get into the whole "secondary separation" issue, which is already dealt with somewhere else.)

Sorry, now Im getting far afield.

Jesus was critical of those who placed "religion" on people without any "relationship" with God. We don't do that. Preachers say time and time again that the reason for the standards taught inthe Bible is so that we can be free to do God's will, free to have a close relationship with Him. Its not a list of Do's and Don't's, its an opportunity to have freedom to LIVE IN Christ.

 

[All about Grace]

One can argue that the term "fundamentalist" was hijacked in recent decades by extremists, but that is irrelevant. The truth is -- the term has been hijacked and now means something totally different than it did in the 20s & 40s. When one associates with fundamentalism today, he/she is identifying with far more than the fundamentals of the faith. Like it or not, that is reality.

And there is no doubt certain aspects of fundamentalism today resembles the religious establishment Jesus rebuked so sharply.

Regardless of personal belief, labels create perception. Call yourself a Calvinist, you are linked to certain beliefs. Call yourself an Arminian ... call yourself purpose-driven ... call yourself seeker-sensitive ... call yourself a fundamentalist ... you get the picture here.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

You can view it however you wish. I am a fundamentalist. If your judgment decides that makes me a Pharisee that is fine. I will gladly stand before God and let Him decide the merits or demerits of that title.

And I thought fundamentalists were the ones who were judgemental.


Seems like it goes both ways, doesn't it?

 

[All about Grace]

bapmom,

Again we can agree to disagree.

Honest question for you: do you find something wrong with the fact your website claims you have had 53,800+ professions of faith and 16,000 baptisms in the last decade?

I am sure that with that many people coming to Christ your church must be running 18,000+ on an average Sunday (that is assuming only 1/3 of those professions "stuck").

I know I am walking on shaky ground here in certain brands of fundamentalism, but I just want to know your honest opinion about these numbers. It is a bit frightening to me.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I would consider that a fair question. I noticed that as well and wondered the same. That works out to over 100 professions of faith a week.

There is an attitude which stresses the importance of sensational numbers in some aspects of fundamentalism that does concern me.

[ November 03, 2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
Just a quick question for everyone on this subject matter -- how would you characterize the attitude of Jesus toward the religious fundamentalists of his day???

Just wondering.

AAG,

The religious fundamentalists of Jesus' day were Christ-haters and Christ-rejecters. Is that what you really think about today's IFBs?