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AV1611 Translator Sidenotes 2: Matthew
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Thou knowest
Deare Sistere Russell55e
Ed, you're dilly-dallying with the "Olde English" there and fail to understand; the phrase is "an hymn'e'". If it were the psalm, it would read "a pslam" The word that begins with "h" is considered a "vowel sound" and requires the artivle "an" instead of "a". Many today will even omit the "ha" sound in the use of many words, one imparticular; "U"mble, when we usually say "humble". You know, "an hungered", "an hymn".
The difference between a psalm and a hymn is the psalms were always sung with the accompanyment of musical instruments: the psaltry, the viol and the harp along with the timbrel. Hymns are usually referred to as particular worship songs sung w/o the use of instruments.
I could only suppose when they sung they had no musical instryments other than their vocal chords with them; "hymn" is correct.
Now, which is it? Are you "playing" with something in minde or are you playing withe Russell55e in the sande boxe againe?
We old "rock-n-rollers" (converted to old hymns now since we got genuinely saved) mighten referest to thou as havinge "toyse in the atticke"
The difference between a psalm and a hymn is the psalms were always sung with the accompanyment of musical instruments: the psaltry, the viol and the harp along with the timbrel. Hymns are usually referred to as particular worship songs sung w/o the use of instruments.
I could only suppose when they sung they had no musical instryments other than their vocal chords with them; "hymn" is correct.
Now, which is it? Are you "playing" with something in minde or are you playing withe Russell55e in the sande boxe againe?
We old "rock-n-rollers" (converted to old hymns now since we got genuinely saved) mighten referest to thou as havinge "toyse in the atticke"
The Greek is clear, with all texts (that I have) saying "hymn". Why would the AV1611 suggest "psalm" instead?
The distinction is clear (Speaking to yourself in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs) with very distinct definitions.
Intriguing. Could relate the fact that the AV translators KNEW the Jewish custom of closing a pesach seder with certain "psalms", not "hymns."
Hmmmm
The distinction is clear (Speaking to yourself in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs) with very distinct definitions.
Intriguing. Could relate the fact that the AV translators KNEW the Jewish custom of closing a pesach seder with certain "psalms", not "hymns."
Hmmmm
I think you may have hit it, Doc, the KJB translators were very familiar with Jewish custom. Just look at these concerning "pslams, hymns, and spiritual songs":
5568 qalmov psalmos psal-mos’
from 5567; TDNT-8:489,1225; n m
AV-psalm 5, Psalm 2; 7
1) a striking, twanging
1a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
1b) of a pious song, a psalm
5215 umnov humnos hoom’-nos
apparently from a simpler (obsolete) form of hudeo (to celebrate, probably akin to 103, cf 5567); TDNT-8:489,1225; n m
AV-hymn 2; 2
1) a song in tithe praise of gods, heroes, conquerors
2) a sacred song, hymn
4152 pneumatikov pneumatikos pnyoo-mat-ik-os’
from 4151; TDNT-6:332,876; adj
AV-spiritual 26; 26
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing (In conjunction with "songs" if the Greek "enthusaist" will allow, KJB translators did.)
The we have this: (making melody)
5567 qallw psallo psal’-lo
probably strengthened from psao (to rub or touch the surface, cf 5597); TDNT-8:489,1225; v
AV-sing 3, sing psalms 1, make melody 1; 5
1) to pluck off, pull out
2) to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
2a) to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
2b) to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
2c) to sing to the music of the harp
2d) in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song
Though it's NOT my intention, and I do love acapello, this would change the view of the Primitive baptist on their objection to musical instruments used for worship.
Nearly all the Pslams are "to the musician". Hymns are sung "acapello", the " Church Hymnal" is full of Hymns and Pslams and Spiritual songs for the purpose of making melody in our hearts. And Yes , I know it's a Co G hymnal, but it has many of the "baptist" songs in it.
5568 qalmov psalmos psal-mos’
from 5567; TDNT-8:489,1225; n m
AV-psalm 5, Psalm 2; 7
1) a striking, twanging
1a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
1b) of a pious song, a psalm
5215 umnov humnos hoom’-nos
apparently from a simpler (obsolete) form of hudeo (to celebrate, probably akin to 103, cf 5567); TDNT-8:489,1225; n m
AV-hymn 2; 2
1) a song in tithe praise of gods, heroes, conquerors
2) a sacred song, hymn
4152 pneumatikov pneumatikos pnyoo-mat-ik-os’
from 4151; TDNT-6:332,876; adj
AV-spiritual 26; 26
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing (In conjunction with "songs" if the Greek "enthusaist" will allow, KJB translators did.)
The we have this: (making melody)
5567 qallw psallo psal’-lo
probably strengthened from psao (to rub or touch the surface, cf 5597); TDNT-8:489,1225; v
AV-sing 3, sing psalms 1, make melody 1; 5
1) to pluck off, pull out
2) to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
2a) to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
2b) to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
2c) to sing to the music of the harp
2d) in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song
Though it's NOT my intention, and I do love acapello, this would change the view of the Primitive baptist on their objection to musical instruments used for worship.
Nearly all the Pslams are "to the musician". Hymns are sung "acapello", the " Church Hymnal" is full of Hymns and Pslams and Spiritual songs for the purpose of making melody in our hearts. And Yes , I know it's a Co G hymnal, but it has many of the "baptist" songs in it.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
S.Matthew XXVI:67 (KJV1611):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him , and others smote
him with ||the palmes of their hands,
Sidenote: ||Or, rods.
S.Matthew XXVI:67 (KJV1611):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him , and others smote
him with rodss,
Matthew 26:67 (KJV1769):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him; and others smote
him with the palms of their hands,
Matthe 26:67 (KJV1873):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him; and others smote
him with *the palms of their hands,
Footnote: * Or, rods, as in John 18:22 marg
Strange, the perfect KJV1611 gets the footnote
taken out for the perfecter KJV1769
and reinserted with additional comentary
in the perfectest KJV1873
Matthew 26:67(NLT)
Then they spit in Jesus' face
and hit him with their fists.
And some slapped him,
Matthew 26:67 (NASB):
Then they spat in His face
and beat Him with their fists;
and others slapped F577 Him,
----------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES: F577: Or {beat Him with rods}
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him , and others smote
him with ||the palmes of their hands,
Sidenote: ||Or, rods.
S.Matthew XXVI:67 (KJV1611):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him , and others smote
him with rodss,
Matthew 26:67 (KJV1769):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him; and others smote
him with the palms of their hands,
Matthe 26:67 (KJV1873):
Then did they spit in his face,
and buffeted him; and others smote
him with *the palms of their hands,
Footnote: * Or, rods, as in John 18:22 marg
Strange, the perfect KJV1611 gets the footnote
taken out for the perfecter KJV1769
and reinserted with additional comentary
in the perfectest KJV1873
Matthew 26:67(NLT)
Then they spit in Jesus' face
and hit him with their fists.
And some slapped him,
Matthew 26:67 (NASB):
Then they spat in His face
and beat Him with their fists;
and others slapped F577 Him,
----------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES: F577: Or {beat Him with rods}
Learn the parable of how the Roman soldiers used the palm of the hand to smack prisoners in the face, Ed. Also how the palm of the hand is used to "box the ears".
I'm sorry the side notes confuse you so easily, but the palm of the hand also is called a "rod' in the same sense the football strategy of "stiff-arming" the defensive player is used to thwart a tackle. The palm of the hand makes the contact, but the arm is stiff.
I'm a plumber, and sometimes I use my palm as a hammer on some things so I won't demolish them with a "rod"/ hammer. Also of note, if the Roman soldiers had beat Jesus with "rods" literally, though the power of God would have still kept Jesus on the path to Calvary, the smiting with rods and the scourging combined surely would have killed any mortal man.
But I think you should check into the Roman use of the palm of the hand, this would justify the sidenote being a sidenote and NOT the actual Scripture.
I'm sorry the side notes confuse you so easily, but the palm of the hand also is called a "rod' in the same sense the football strategy of "stiff-arming" the defensive player is used to thwart a tackle. The palm of the hand makes the contact, but the arm is stiff.
I'm a plumber, and sometimes I use my palm as a hammer on some things so I won't demolish them with a "rod"/ hammer. Also of note, if the Roman soldiers had beat Jesus with "rods" literally, though the power of God would have still kept Jesus on the path to Calvary, the smiting with rods and the scourging combined surely would have killed any mortal man.
But I think you should check into the Roman use of the palm of the hand, this would justify the sidenote being a sidenote and NOT the actual Scripture.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Matthew XXVII:9 (KJV1611):
(Then was fulfilled that which
was spoken by Ieremie the Prophet,
saying, * and they tooke the thirtie pieces
of siluer, the price of him that was
valued, ||whom they of the children of
Israel did value:
Sidenotes:
* Zach. 11.12
|| Or, whom they bought of the children of Israel.
This referes to the common price of
one of the children of Israel sold into
slavery: 30 pieces of silver.
Interesting here is that Matthew calls
this verse found in Zacheriah
having been written by "Jeremiah the Prophet".
Of course, if you assume that the KJV1611
is perfect and inerrant, then you have to figure
out how it is that that is correct.
But there are gone out some among us who say
that all of the honest translations are THE BIBLE
and each of the honest translations is A BIBLE
and the Bible is perfect and inerrant
and preserved by the providential mercies of
God for our understanding in this generation
at this time. And if that is so, then any
perceived "dificultie" must be that of our understanding
and not a dificulty of THE BIBLE. SOmebody want to
type "Amen"?
(Then was fulfilled that which
was spoken by Ieremie the Prophet,
saying, * and they tooke the thirtie pieces
of siluer, the price of him that was
valued, ||whom they of the children of
Israel did value:
Sidenotes:
* Zach. 11.12
|| Or, whom they bought of the children of Israel.
This referes to the common price of
one of the children of Israel sold into
slavery: 30 pieces of silver.
Interesting here is that Matthew calls
this verse found in Zacheriah
having been written by "Jeremiah the Prophet".
Of course, if you assume that the KJV1611
is perfect and inerrant, then you have to figure
out how it is that that is correct.
But there are gone out some among us who say
that all of the honest translations are THE BIBLE
and each of the honest translations is A BIBLE
and the Bible is perfect and inerrant
and preserved by the providential mercies of
God for our understanding in this generation
at this time. And if that is so, then any
perceived "dificultie" must be that of our understanding
and not a dificulty of THE BIBLE. SOmebody want to
type "Amen"?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I'm thankful for your "amen".
She is "Thankful", i'm "Amen"
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Yes, I know that.
For sixty years i've heard:
"Two 'eds are better than one."
Now learn the reason why "Jeremie" is used as the refrence to the "Prophets" according to Jewish tradition. I think you know this already and are just poking and prodding at the ignorance of the simple who pass by. Jewish traditions are all over the Jewish Scripture, and also found in our Bible. Aren't we glad?!? Yes! If it weren't for the Jews, we wouldn't have a Bible, so it's best to learn more of Jewish tradition to understand the Bible as God would have His people to understand it. Them Jews is funny ain't they? Much like 'ed, uh, I mean "eds"
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Keep at it, Ed. It's fun to see a KJVO squirm.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
S.Matthew XXVII:27 (KJV1611):
Then the souldiers of the Gouernour
tooke Iesus into the ||common hall, and gathered
vnto him the whole band of souldiers.
sidenote: || Or, gouernours house.
S.Matthew XXVII:27 (KJV1611alt):
Then the souldiers of the Gouernour
tooke Iesus into the gouernours house, and gathered
vnto him the whole band of souldiers.
I'm told these are not just two words for
the same place, but descriptors of two places.
Both places are now sites to commercially exploit
the mocking and beating of Jesus.
The NIV and NASB both call it a name: "The Praetorium".
The NLT gives it a title: headquarters.
Then the souldiers of the Gouernour
tooke Iesus into the ||common hall, and gathered
vnto him the whole band of souldiers.
sidenote: || Or, gouernours house.
S.Matthew XXVII:27 (KJV1611alt):
Then the souldiers of the Gouernour
tooke Iesus into the gouernours house, and gathered
vnto him the whole band of souldiers.
I'm told these are not just two words for
the same place, but descriptors of two places.
Both places are now sites to commercially exploit
the mocking and beating of Jesus.
The NIV and NASB both call it a name: "The Praetorium".
The NLT gives it a title: headquarters.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
S. Matthew XXVIII:2 (KJV1611):
And behold, there ||was a great
earthquake, for the Angel of the Lord
descended from heauen, and came and
rolled backe the stone from the
doore, and sate vpon it.
Sidnote: ||Or, had bin
S. Matthew XXVIII:2 (KJV1611alt):
And behold, there had bin a great
earthquake, for the Angel of the Lord
descended from heauen, and came and
rolled backe the stone from the
doore, and sate vpon it.
NIV and NLT - was
NASB - had been
THis is the last note in Matthew.
look for a new thread ...
And behold, there ||was a great
earthquake, for the Angel of the Lord
descended from heauen, and came and
rolled backe the stone from the
doore, and sate vpon it.
Sidnote: ||Or, had bin
S. Matthew XXVIII:2 (KJV1611alt):
And behold, there had bin a great
earthquake, for the Angel of the Lord
descended from heauen, and came and
rolled backe the stone from the
doore, and sate vpon it.
NIV and NLT - was
NASB - had been
THis is the last note in Matthew.
look for a new thread ...
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
AV1611 Translator Sidenotes 3:
is found at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1450.html?
is found at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1450.html?