AW Tozer and the Order of Salvation

[asterisktom]

AW Tozer and the Order of Salvation

Not everyone can hear Tozer's "voice" of the Shepherd. “My sheep hear My voice.” - John 10:27. The context of John 10 tacitly assumes that there are some who just cannot hear the Shepherd. But this has no place in Tozer’s soteriology.

 

[Deacon]

What a coincidence, I just purchased a few copies of Tozer's Pursuit of God today.
The season opener sermon series at my church is "Foundations."
The book was on the reading list and I wanted a few copies in the church library.

To start, I won't argue 'order of salvation'; IMO it's like arguing if toilet paper should go over or under ...it doesn't matter much at the end.

Tozer does write a bit loosely, as if he's writing for the interested general population rather than systematicians.

You noted that early in the chapter 'The Speaking Voice' of God encompassed general revelation; Tozer references Romans 1:20 and 2:15.

Imagine this, could the general, 'universal Voice,' be the light available to all mankind mentioned in the Gospel of John 1:5, 9?
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

The 'universal Voice' is invitational. Come all you who are weary... John 1:9; Romans 1:16-2:16; Romans 10:18; Titus 2:11.

The sheep that hear and respond come to Jesus.

Some will hear, ....others, not so much.

Rob

 

[kyredneck]

Not everyone can hear Tozer's "voice" of the Shepherd.

1st Corinthians Chapter 2

14​	Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

 

[Van]

John 1:5 ESV
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

This appears to be the translation cited in post #2.

Shines is in the present tense indicating the Light continuously shines within the realm of darkness where lost humanity reside. Darkness, which is the absence of light, has no mind, and cannot comprehend information. However, it can certainly shroud or make unavailable information. You cannot read your bible in complete darkness!

And of course, the opposite is also true, where there is light, darkness cannot exist or preclude an awareness of information. So I think the actual idea being presented by John is that darkness cannot preclude the Light making people aware of information, rather than making people understand information.

John 1:9 ESV
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

This appears to be the translation cited in post #2.

Here the "true light" refers to Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, whose role is two fold, to communicate the Father's will to fallen humanity, and provide the means of reconciliation to all humanity.

The difficulty for me is that not everyone has an opportunity to be enlighten by the life of Jesus, such as aborted babies, so just what aspect of "light" does His incarnate life "give" to everyone? I see two possibilities, "everyone" refers to everyone in general, rather than each and every human conceived. The other possibility is that the true light gave the means of reconciliation to everyone, even those never able to receive it. Take you pick or offer an alternate.

 

[Van]

I did not plow through the linked article, but I read far enough to see it was a Calvinist hit piece.

The verse, My sheep hear my voice does not preclude some who are "of His sheep" from hearing His voice. The fields white for harvest are "of His sheep."

Next, the article made the assumption Christ did not die as a ransom for all, but charged those who believe Christ died as a ransom for all with making an unwarranted assumption. Obviously, the shoe is on the other foot.

Bottom line, all people start out with a capacity to hear, understand and learn from God's revelation, both general and special. Many will seek God but will not find God. One wrong path is to seek God by works rather than through faith.
Perhaps the lost should stop striving to earn salvation, and quietly confess they are wretched sinners, and seek God's mercy through faith in Christ.

 

[Van]

Here is an Excerpt from the linked article:

​

So here is the order of salvation per Tozer:​

First of all – and this is an important detail – he is referring to an unsaved person here. His​

“average person” is an unsaved one. If an unsaved person just follows these prescribed steps, so

he assures us, he will do well.​

1. Getting still (a misuse of Scripture already – see above)​

2. “If we will” – but of course, we know that God works in us to will and to do of His good​

pleasure. And we know that “no one seeks God” (= no one is willing). So already Tozer is​

describing a creature who doesn’t exist.​

3. “Sound of a presence in the garden”? This is subjective in the extreme. How does this work​

out in shoe leather? When we are describing our salvation we cannot afford to be poetic or​

vague. The Biblical allusion is to an historical event for Adam and Eve, but it communicates​

nothing to us.​

4. Then a more intelligible voice – This idea of progressive awareness of God is common with​

mystics but it is not in the Word of God. But more on this later.​

5. “Then the happy moment when the Spirit begins to illuminate the Scriptures”...and...”an​

intelligible word”.​

6. “Then will come life and light, and best of all, ability to see and rest in and embrace Jesus​

Christ as Saviour and Lord”. – So, in light of this last step, where do we place, say, John 3:3?​

“Except a man be born again he cannot even see the Kingdom of God.”​

In other words, unless we have sight (Tozer’s step 6) we cannot even see (and move toward) God​

(step 3- 5). Thus #6 is a prerequisite for 3- 5. It is all out of order ​

And here is the point by point response:

1) Here the false claim is that the lost cannot hear God's revelation, the "T" of the Calvinist TULIP. But Luke 13:24 says many will seek the narrow door [Christ] making that claim is false.

2) Philippians 2:13 is addressing people who have been born anew, not lost individuals separated from God. Yes, it is true no one seeks God, but the verse does NOT say no one EVER seeks God, the fictional rewrite of Calvinism. The lost do not seek God at all times, such as when they are sinning, so the verse is used by an inspired Paul to prove all the lost are under sin.

3) Here Calvinism denies the lost have any awareness of God from what He has made, again directing denying Romans 2, which says they are without excuse. To claim none of the lost ever consider the possibility that God might exist is another idiotic absurdity.

4) The idea we become progressively more aware of God's voice is claimed not to be taught in scripture. However, we are to study to show ourselves approved, thus through study we become more aware of God's voice as He speaks to us through His written word.

5) Yes, it was a "happy moment" when I first considered that I might embrace Christ and become something better than my wretched self. This realization, or epiphany certainly does not occur to all the lost, such as those that reject the gospel, but it did happen to me.

6) Lastly, the Calvinistic false claim is that John 3:3 teaches the lost cannot "see" meaning become aware of, the kingdom. However, that is not the meaning at all. The Greek word, translated "see" is used here to mean to engage in a face to face encounter, such as where we "see" our doctor or dentist.

Bottom line, the hit piece is based on circular reasoning, start with the premise the lost cannot hear, and then conclude the lost cannot hear. It is twaddle folks, high grade twaddle.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings

The context of John 10 tacitly assumes that there are some who just cannot hear the Shepherd.

Is this actually true? The problem is that the statement, which I know is a common Reformed assumption, is that it assumes a negative inference to be clearly true (and it is not clearly true, logically).

The Negative Inference
1. The sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
2. Goats are not sheep
3. Therefore Goats do not hear the voice.

The problem is that this negative inference can be just as much false as it is true. We actually need more information.

Because we don't have the proper amount of information, this could also be true... (1) Both sheep and goats hear my voice, but (2) only the sheep follow me, because (3) I know them. This option could be just as much true as the other, considering verses like 1Tim 2:3-6, 1Tit 2:4, 1Tim 4:10, John 8:12, John 1:9, etc.

To justify the assumed conclusion of the negative inference, it seems common to provide the verse 1Cor 2:14 (as kyredneck did). The problem is, to me anyway, the verse 1Cor 2:14 is taken out of context in its use to justify the Negative Inference above. The first point that should be made regarding 1Corinthians 2:14, and is frequently overlooked, is that the context of the verse is of the “wisdom among those who are mature” (1Cor 2:6). In other words, the context starts in 1Cor 2:6.

This context, which is largely ignored and the context in which the verse 1Corinthians 2:14 refers, is very important in understanding what Paul was actually saying. This context of “mature” wisdom is like the concept that Paul develops of “solid food” (1Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12,14) that is contrasted against the wisdom for “newborn babes” (1Pet 2:2) , i.e., “milk” (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:12, 14).

1. Spiritual milk is for those new in Christ and the carnal minded (1Cor 3:1-3, Heb 5:12, Heb 5:14).
2. One should eventually grow to a “wisdom among those who are mature” (1Cor 2:6). This kind of maturing leads to the digestion of spiritual solid foods (1Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12, Heb 5:14).
3. These spiritual solid foods are not digestible by the natural man (1Cor 2:14), i.e., the carnal minded.
4. Since babes in Christ are still like the carnal minded (1Cor 3:2-3), i.e., natural man, they cannot eat spiritual solid foods nor can they digest spiritually solid foods.
5. Therefore, if you are stuck in being like babes in Christ, which are still carnal minded, and not maturing to more solid foods, then you like the natural man cannot digest and understand the spiritually mature foods that you should be progressing toward.

Paul is not intending to paint a picture that the natural man does not receive or understand any glimpses of the divine grace (Even John Calvin claims that the natural man does receive such when he wrote about the Parable of the Sower, “There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up" (Calvin Commentaries Hebrews 6:4). This “some knowledge” that John Calvin concedes “irradiate their minds with some sparks of his light” (CC Hebrews 6:4) is evidence that one need not assume the negative inference just because one is Reformed.

The carnal minded are given and understand spiritual milk, per 1Cor., no matter how quickly it may vanish from their minds (which John Calvin agrees with). What the carnal man, just like stuck babes in Christ, are not given and cannot understand is spiritual solid foods.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Dave G]

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

This negative ( and positive ) statement was made by the Lord Himself.
Does it not say that those that are "of" God ( those that He will set on His right hand and call "beloved" in Matthew 25 and the "sheep" who do hear His voice and follow Him in John 10 ) hear, while others do not?

IMO, "to hear" means "to hearken to and to comprehend / understand"...not just to hear physically.

 

[th1bill]

As an 81 year old guitar picker/singer all my stage friends are dead and except they took the Lord on or near their death beds, they are in Helle that awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. All of us knew Yashua was the Earnest for our salvation, but I am the only one that seems to have answered and sought the redemption offered. The World hears and understands but chooses to die in sin.

 

[Silverhair]

AW Tozer and the Order of Salvation

Not everyone can hear Tozer's "voice" of the Shepherd. “My sheep hear My voice.” - John 10:27. The context of John 10 tacitly assumes that there are some who just cannot hear the Shepherd. But this has no place in Tozer’s soteriology.

All can hear but not all will accept what they hear. We see this all through John 10.

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

Joh 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
Joh 10:20 Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?"

Joh 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

In John it is clear that they could hear and understand what Jesus was saying but many just would not accept what He was saying.