Babies are righteous?

[russell55]

They are not born guilty, however, but born with a sin nature. Christ's righteousness needs to cover this sin nature.

But the reason Christ's righteousness is applied to anyone is as the basis for justification (or a declaration of not guilty). If Christ's righteousness is applied to infants because of their sin nature, then they need to be justified (or declared not guilty) because of that sin nature.

In other words, to turn things around, if Christ's righteousness is needed because of their sin nature, that sin nature itself makes them guilty before God.

So you can't say "They are not born guilty, but they need Christ's righteousness." It doesn't add up.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Actually, "righteousness" implies obedience, not innocence.

Luke 1 tells us that Zechariah and Elizabeth "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Did they sin? (All people do.) They are blameless, but they are not innocent. They were righteous because they were obedient.

 

[Andy T.]

Actually, "righteousness" implies obedience, not innocence.

Luke 1 tells us that Zechariah and Elizabeth "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Did they sin? (All people do.) They are blameless, but they are not innocent. They were righteous because they were obedient.

When you speak of our practical righteousness - that which works out in us in our daily lives - I agree. But I am not talking about our practical, daily-living-out righteousness; I am talking about the righteousness of Christ, which includes perfect obedience and thus, innocence. It is through our justification in Christ that we are declared righteous before God, and thus, are innocent before him positionally. Not only did Christ take our sins away and put them on him (and now we are not guilty), he also gives us his perfect righteousness instead of our sin (and now we are innocent). It is a glorious transfer - Christ takes our sin, while we receive his righteousness.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

But the reason Christ's righteousness is applied to anyone is as the basis for justification (or a declaration of not guilty). If Christ's righteousness is applied to infants because of their sin nature, then they need to be justified (or declared not guilty) because of that sin nature.

In other words, to turn things around, if Christ's righteousness is needed because of their sin nature, that sin nature itself makes them guilty before God.

So you can't say "They are not born guilty, but they need Christ's righteousness." It doesn't add up.

Excellent point.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

This is a related question of the op.
Why were children included in the renewing of the covenant as seen in
Deut. 29:9-13

9 Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do. 10 All of you are standing today in the presence of the LORD your God—your leaders and chief men, your elders and officials, and all the other men of Israel, 11 together with your children and your wives, and the aliens living in your camps who chop your wood and carry your water. 12 You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the LORD your God, a covenant the LORD is making with you this day and sealing with an oath, 13 to confirm you this day as his people, that he may be your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Also Joshua 8:35

35 There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole assembly of Israel, including the women and children, and the aliens who lived among them

.
And Joel 2:12-17

12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.

16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.

17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?' "

It appears that children from the very youngest are included by God in His covenantal dealings with Israel.
Based on passages like these and similar ones, what is the position of children before God?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Just to make you think a little bit, they were already in the Promised Land while they were still in Egypt, and they fell while they were already in the Promised Land.

Genesis 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The children of Israel were a type of saved people, they set out on their journey, then they were baptized (Red Sea crossing), and they wandered in the wilderness with many of them dying.

They fell before they reached the better part of their inheritance, which was the Land Flowing with Milk and Honey.

Both were promised. One was unconditional, just like our salvation. "It's yours." The other promise was conditional, just like entering into the Kingdom. "It's yours if you're faithful."

You have taught me. I was thinking about the Transfiguration. I asked that
in church the other night and only 3 people got it right.
"Did Moses ever make it over into Canaan? Remember, he died on Mt. Pisgah. Did he make it?" Most answered "no". Then their eyes popped when I took them to the Transfiguration. I learned that listening to Dr. McGee.

 

[skypair]

Read Genesis 18 and 19. Do you not suppose that in all of Sodom or Gomorrah there were more than ten babies in all the cities?
If God destroyed all of Sodom and Gomorrah because not ten righteous could be found, it seems as if He found not righteousness in the young children and babies. Or do you suppose there were no young children and babies?
How about the flood? Why were the innocent babies and young children not brought onto the ark?

The answer to your question is that the dead INNOCENTS (infants) go to Abraham's bosom or heaven and are resurrected with the just. Therefore, God is not punishing the innocent with the wicked -- everyone will die once. Difference is, innocents get a "first chance."

Physical death is not a punishment --- it is a result of the fall.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

The answer to your question is that the dead INNOCENTS (infants) go to Abraham's bosom or heaven and are resurrected with the just. Therefore, God is not punishing the innocent with the wicked -- everyone will die once. Difference is, innocents get a "first chance."

Physical death is not a punishment --- it is a result of the fall.

skypair

No sky, that is not the answer to my question. Do babies count? I think they do. If not ten righteous could be found was the question. If babies are considered righteous, then there should have at least been ten in those cities wouldn't you think? Punishment was not the question.... nor where babies go when they die. I think all of them go to heaven by God's sovereign grace.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Since "babies" cannot think in abstract ways and cannot even comprehend who God is, it therefore follows that babies cannot choose to follow God or choose to reject God, and therefore cannot be held responsible for suppressing the truth, not glorifying God or giving thanks to him, worshipping idols, exchanging the truth of God for a lie, abandoning the knowledge of God, or knowing God's righteous decree but continuing to disobey it. Such describes an awareness that infants by their very nature cannot attain. I think babies are neither righteous nor unrighteous, though they are born in sin and their inclination is ever toward unrighteousness.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Since "babies" cannot think in abstract ways and cannot even comprehend who God is, it therefore follows that babies cannot choose to follow God or choose to reject God, and therefore cannot be held responsible for suppressing the truth, not glorifying God or giving thanks to him, worshipping idols, exchanging the truth of God for a lie, abandoning the knowledge of God, or knowing God's righteous decree but continuing to disobey it. Such describes an awareness that infants by their very nature cannot attain. I think babies are neither righteous nor unrighteous, though they are born in sin and their inclination is ever toward unrighteousness.

So what third category is there for babies?

I was curious what Psalm 8:2 refers to:

From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies to silence the foe and the avenger.

 

[skypair]

No sky, that is not the answer to my question. Do babies count? I think they do. If not ten righteous could be found was the question. If babies are considered righteous, then there should have at least been ten in those cities wouldn't you think? Punishment was not the question.... nor where babies go when they die. I think all of them go to heaven by God's sovereign grace.

Sorry, rb. I meant that they are not given the righteousness of God (saved) as innocents -- therefore, they are not righteous. They are "just," though, on account of innocence. That's how I see it.

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

If righteousness was defined as absolute perfection, RB, there would be nobody in Heaven.

Quite right, heaven would be empty unless someone was able to provide a sinner with a perfect righteousness. And that is what Jesus Christ came to earth to do. That is why Paul dismissed any idea of having his own righteousness to earn entry to heaven. Philippians 3.8-9:

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 ¶ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;​

It is the righteousness of Christ we need m- our own supposed righteousness is mere filthy rags in God's sight.

 

[webdog]

So what third category is there for babies?

Just...not guilty.

 

[skypair]

Just...not guilty.

Webdog -- here's the way I see it scripturally:

Babies are in the state of Adam before the fall. They have what Renald Showers calls an "untested predisposition to Godliness" (something like that ... have to wait till I get home to check). UNTESTED is the key. God isn't going to accept anyone who has been "tested" and failed into heaven --- but He's not going to condemn anyone who hasn't been tested either.

So yes, found judicially "just" according to innocence.

skypair

 

[johnp.]

skypair.

Babies are in the state of Adam before the fall. They have what Renald Showers calls an "untested predisposition to Godliness"

PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Bang goes that idea.

(something like that ... have to wait till I get home to check).

Do you mean check with Renald Showers? Don't bother, Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. Ps 58:3. One does not need to eat the whole joint to see if it's bad, one slice will tell you. I think Spurgeon said that.

UNTESTED is the key.

JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This is the key.

God isn't going to accept anyone who has been "tested" and failed into heaven...

Bang goes my salvation then.

...but He's not going to condemn anyone who hasn't been tested either.

He does the testing?

So yes, found judicially "just" according to innocence.

So no, innocence does not remove guilt. JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Webdog -- here's the way I see it scripturally:

Babies are in the state of Adam before the fall. They have what Renald Showers calls an "untested predisposition to Godliness" (something like that ... have to wait till I get home to check). UNTESTED is the key. God isn't going to accept anyone who has been "tested" and failed into heaven --- but He's not going to condemn anyone who hasn't been tested either.

So yes, found judicially "just" according to innocence.

skypair

Says you and your sources.
No one has brought up that we don't know how God views babies for eternity.
Does He consider them only in their infant state?
Does He have knowledge of them as sinful adults?
Do they remain babies for all eternity?
Since God takes their life(prematurely from our view) is He required to give them eternal life?

 

[webdog]

No one has brought up that we don't know how God views babies for eternity.

True, we don't know. Adam and Eve were created as adults, so an argument can be made that infants in death become adults in Heaven. Physiologicaly, adults plateau around 30 - 33, then begin to "fall apart" after that point....Jesus died physically at 33, etc.

Does He have knowledge of them as sinful adults?

If they never become adults, how can there be knowledge of them as adults?

Since God takes their life(prematurely from our view) is He required to give them eternal life?

God's requirements square with His nature, which are just and righteous.

 

[skypair]

Says you and your sources.

First -- why are you in the "attack mode??" And who are you implying are my "sources??" I'm only trying to answer the question.

No one has brought up that we don't know how God views babies for eternity.
Does He consider them only in their infant state?

Think about what state YOU will be arriving in heaven and you will understand. YOU will arrive with no more or less intellect or spirituality than you have now. Unles you are raptured first, you will be given a white robe and told "wait until thy fellow servants die." (Rev 6)

Does He have knowledge of them as sinful adults?

Like web says -- they weren't adults. He knows them as they are and as they will be.

Do they remain babies for all eternity?

No. They will be resurrected as they left -- infants -- into the MK of Christ.

Since God takes their life (prematurely from our view) is He required to give them eternal life?

No. They will get their first chance to receive in the MK and have the same choice as you during this life.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

No. They will be resurrected as they left -- infants -- into the MK of Christ.

No. They will get their first chance to receive in the MK and have the same choice as you during this life.

What happens to babies who die in the MK?

:laugh:

 

[johnp.]

Since God takes their life(prematurely from our view) is He required to give them eternal life? (Isaiah.)

God's requirements square with His nature, which are just and righteous.

Since God takes their life(prematurely from our view) is He required to give them eternal life or not webdog?

john.