Babies are righteous?

[Isaiah40:28]

I'm confused. It sounds like some of you think babies and very young children can understand the gospel. They can't even understand why they shouldn't cross the street or touch a hot stove. They can't possibly understand what sin is and why we need a Savior.

Why are you underestimating what God can do in the heart of child?

I do know that babies are unable to either accept or reject salvation.
They are still innocent though, since they don't have the law and therefore cannot transgress against it.

So what role does the conscience play in a baby or young child?
Romans 2 speaks of the requirements of the law written on the hearts of the Gentiles, their consciences also bearing witness and their thoughts accusing them.

 

[Amy.G]

Isaiah, I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you saying that babies and little children are saved because they have responded to the gospel?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Isaiah, I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you saying that babies and little children are saved because they have responded to the gospel?

1) God's law is written on the hearts of man, a conscience according to Romans 2
2) God's Spirit can be active even though we may not get a verbal profession. Think of Psalm 8:2.
3) I affirm the doctrine of original sin. In Adam we all sinned.

 

[Amy.G]

1) God's law is written on the hearts of man, a conscience according to Romans 2
2) God's Spirit can be active even though we may not get a verbal profession. Think of Psalm 8:2.
3) I affirm the doctrine of original sin. In Adam we all sinned.[/QUOTE
You didn't answer my question. Do babies respond to the gospel?

Romans
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Yes, everyone is given a conscience, but that is not all it takes to be saved. Otherwise, everyone would be saved.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You didn't answer my question. Do babies respond to the gospel?

I don't think babies respond to the gospel in the way that adults do.
How God makes them His children is unknown to me. I affirm that grace is given to them, the same as me. I also acknowledge that since He is the one who takes their life, He obviously provides a way of salvation for them that is dependant on His mercy.
I don't know how the process works, but I trust Him.

Romans
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

yes, that is the way that we declare our faith, but maybe that's not exactly what God requires of babies or mentally handicapped.
Again Psalm 8:2 has God ordaining praise from the lips of infants and children.

Yes, everyone is given a conscience, but that is not all it takes to be saved. Otherwise, everyone would be saved.

I didn't say it was.
But the fact that we all have a conscience shows that God's requirements are written on our hearts.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think babies respond to the gospel in the way that adults do.
How God makes them His children is unknown to me. I affirm that grace is given to them, the same as me. I also acknowledge that since He is the one who takes their life, He obviously provides a way of salvation for them that is dependant on His mercy.
I don't know how the process works, but I trust Him.

I agree. And as I said before also, none of us knows how God works in these matters. But, trust Him, I will. He is good and righteous.

 

[Brother Bob]

Exactly.
So we teach them about sin.
We teach them about God's holiness.
We teach them about Jesus' death for sinners.
That's what preaching is, right?

I can see it now, your wife holding the baby and you reading, "you are all sinners, you must repent, thou shall not commit adultery", and the baby saying "goo goo". How do you know which baby is one of the elect, maybe you are reading to a non-elect baby?

What I don't understand according to your belief, the children are already either the elect or the non-elect and anything you read to them, preach to them or say to them will change nothing. It has already been chosen whether they go to Heaven or Hell, That is your belief isn't it?

Don't be embarrassed for me, I believe in the scripture that "every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind".

I must be honest here Isaiah, seems to me you would condemn your child so much, that it may run the other way.

I still would like to have an answer to, "when was Apostle Paul alive without the Law"?

 

[johnp.]

I am astounded that an ordained minister would treat the word of God as a joke or make an attempt at mocking.

Don't be embarrassed for me, I believe in the scripture that "every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind".

That's because you don't believe in the scriptures. LK 1:39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

How do you know which baby is one of the elect, maybe you are reading to a non-elect baby?

Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.
Salvation for the children of Christians is not in question.

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I can see it now, your wife holding the baby and you reading, "you are all sinners, you must repent, thou shall not commit adultery", and the baby saying "goo goo".

I feel sorry for you. Nothing that I have affirmed comes close to this type of description.

How do you know which baby is one of the elect, maybe you are reading to a non-elect baby?

Perhaps, but I'm still responsible before the Lord to teach my child God's truths. Failure to obey is commonly called disobedience and God deals parents for this sin.

What I don't understand according to your belief, the children are already either the elect or the non-elect and anything you read to them, preach to them or say to them will change nothing. It has already been chosen whether they go to Heaven or Hell, That is your belief isn't it?

No that's not my belief.
I believe that God uses means to save people.
Parents are often those means.

Don't be embarrassed for me, I believe in the scripture that "every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind".
I must be honest here Isaiah, seems to me you would condemn your child so much, that it may run the other way.
I still would like to have an answer to, "when was Apostle Paul alive without the Law"?

For the final time Bob, go read the thread I gave you about Paul's statements in Romans.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

From Brother Bob's website:

Articles of Faith of Old Regular Baptist:
ARTICLE 3. We believe in the doctrine of election by grace, for by grace are ye saved through faith.

ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.

Strange that his church would use these statements as their own, yet Bob does not affirm them.
How does that work?

 

[Brother Bob]

I am astounded that an ordained minister would treat the word of God as a joke or make an attempt at mocking.
Quote:
Don't be embarrassed for me, I believe in the scripture that "every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind".

I am astounded that grown men would attempt to preach to infants.
Now you want to use a man called of God for a purpose to explain you position.

Again, how do you two know you are talking, preaching or reading to the elect infant and not a non-elect of which you believe they have no chance at all.

At least I believe they all have a chance to go to Heaven.

Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.
Salvation for the children of Christians is not in question.

You should quit using Israel and the Old Covenant to prove your point. You are living under the Grace Covenant in case you do not know. Israel was born into the family by a natural birth. We must have a spiritual birth.

Strange that his church would use these statements as their own, yet Bob does not affirm them.
How does that work?

Oh yes Bob does affirm them too, you just lack the understand to see it. You don't know what "through faith" means.

I am not interested in reading your blog. I use the Bible.

Seems to me it should be no great problem to say when Apostle Paul was alive without the Law?

No that's not my belief.
I believe that God uses means to save people.
Parents are often those means.

Are you saying you don't believe that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world?

 

[skypair]

I agree. And as I said before also, none of us knows how God works in these matters. But, trust Him, I will. He is good and righteous.

Well, you presume that, as you do not know, neither does anyone else. Bad assumption. The answer is in scripture.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Again, how do you two know you are talking, preaching or reading to the elect infant and not a non-elect of which you believe they have no chance at all.

Umm...just answered that one.

Oh yes Bob does affirm them too, you just lack the understand to see it. You don't know what "through faith" means.

You affirm the doctrine of original sin?

I am not interested in reading your blog. I use the Bible.

I can only assume that you misread my permanent signature as part of the post.
It was not part of my post about your church statements.

Seems to me it should be no great problem to say when Apostle Paul was alive without the Law?

Really, then you haven't read the thread I posted, cause Allan and Webdog gave johnp and I lots of problems.

Are you saying you don't believe that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world?

I'm saying that GOd uses means to bring the elect in.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Well, you presume that, as you do not know, neither does anyone else. Bad assumption. The answer is in scripture.

skypair

You didn't know Amy? Skypair thinks he has all the answers. Sky, you really need a slice of that pie. Seriously brother.

 

[Brother Bob]

You affirm the doctrine of original sin?

Of course I believe that a man cannot save himself but is in need of a Saviour. By Grace "through faith" are you saved.

I'm saying that GOd uses means to bring the elect in.

And that includes preaching and reading scripture to infants. Well, we never cease to learn do we, but I have not read this in scripture?

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Scripture seems to say they got there without you.

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[npetreley]

You didn't know Amy? Skypair thinks he has all the answers. Sky, you really need a slice of that pie. Seriously brother.

I thought he had all the answers but he still hasn't told me who's going to win the world series this year, so I'm beginning to doubt.

 

[David Lamb]

I'm confused. It sounds like some of you think babies and very young children can understand the gospel. They can't even understand why they shouldn't cross the street or touch a hot stove. They can't possibly understand what sin is and why we need a Savior.

Are we not wrong to think only of babies in this context? I used to teach in what is called a "special school" here in England. There are various types of special school, but the one I last worked in included a special care unit for teenagers, some as old as 19, whose mental/educational development meant that, although they had almost adult bodies, they were like babies in most other respects. Most could not speak, feed themselves, or even use the toilet without help. They couldn't even understand why they shouldn't cross the street or touch a hot stove. And of course, there is a whole spectrum of mental ability, ranging from those youngsters I've just mentioned through to "gifted" youngsters who have remarkable abilities at a young age. So where on that spectrum do we "stick a pin" and say "That's the level of mental ability necessary to become a Christian!"?

But when it comes down to it, our God is great - if He wants to grant salvation to a person who has not the mental ability to understand the need of a Saviour, He can and will do it. And I'm sure we'd all agree that intellectual ability will not get us to heaven. Paul was a man of great intellect, both before and after his conversion, yet when the Lord Jesus Christ met him on the Damascus road, he was breathing out threats against Jesus and His church.

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
I agree. And as I said before also, none of us knows how God works in these matters. But, trust Him, I will. He is good and righteous.

Well, you presume that, as you do not know, neither does anyone else. Bad assumption. The answer is in scripture.

skypair

What is bad about my assumption?
I said God is good. Is that a bad assumption?
I said He is righteous. Is that a bad assumption?

I have not seen anyone post a scripture that proves beyond doubt what happens to babies at death. If you have some, please show us.

We are not guilty of sin until we sin. Adam was innocent until he sinned. He was created perfect, so he had no sin 'nature'. However, we all are condemned as far as physical death goes. I don't see how this differs from babies. What happens after they die is not written in scripture that I know of. How God deals with their spiritual condition is a mystery. If the answer is in scripture, please show it to me. But, I don't lose sleep over it because I know that God is good and righteous. I trust Him completely.

Now, that's just my opinion. I could be totally wrong. I am always willing to learn. If you know the answer, please share it with all of us.

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Of course the mentally impaired are included with the infants and young children.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry Sky, I misread your quote. You are saying that since I don't know what happens to babies, then I assume no one else knows. Now I get it.

Well, if you know please enlighten me.