Babies are righteous?

The change that took place changed our nature completely. Now we who are elect are being transformed into the likeness of God, this is what Adam lost. Since a transformation is required the change was fundamental.

2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

john.

 

Bob.

Strange that his church would use these statements as their own, yet Bob does not affirm them. How does that work?

ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.

Why the 'and', doesn't your version of original sin match up to orthodoxy? (I am orthodox here. )

But the original sin that you say you affirm says we are born dead. "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me," (Ps. 51: 5.) How can you claim Paul was alive before rebirth yet claim to believe in the doctrine of original sin? Sweet for sour?

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one," says the Book of Job, (Job 14: 4.)

You now need an immaculate conception don't you, for a child to be born spiritually alive it must come from the spiritually alive and mum isn't is she? Mum will be unclean by the time she has precious.

john.

 

Because the Bible tells me so. Rom 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

You don't give an answer to the above scripture because you don't have one. (answer please)

You have to believe babies go to hell or it would destroy your theology.

Also, it says the mother concieved him in sin, not he conceived the mother.

Also, you don't have a hold on Grace, it belongs to God, and by Grace are we saved, "through faith".

We believe God created man with a choice to believe or not believe and gave all men the same opportunity. We sure don't believe the path to hell is covered with the bones of little babies.

Again, you lack the understanding "through faith". The whole plan of Salvation depends on believing that Jesus is the Christ.

No, we don't believe no one can save themselves, even little babies need the Grace of God.

Mat 18:10¶Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
(answer please)

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
(answer please)

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(answer please)

You don't have a hold on the definition of "orginal sin" either, for there are many different deflnitions given.


It is the word of God. Show me a scripture where a little child went to hell please, or even a scripture written to a child? (answer please)

Scripture says it is appointed unto man "once" to die, because Adam sinned. The spiritual dead have to meet the second death. All men will meet the appointment of death.

Scripture says "the soul that sinneth shall die". How can the soul die if its already dead? (answer please)

 

Please answer how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born already dead?

 

johnp:

johnp

How's that????
That's a terrible interpretation of scripture.
Babies can hear the gospel, but they cannot understand it or have faith. By your theology, all babies are unsaved.

 

None are righteous on their own, infants or not. Only by the Grace of God, and Noah found Grace in the eyes of God. Not out of the millions or billions did God find but one righteous. Because of One made righteous by the Grace of God 8 souls were saved.

 

We are talking about innocence here, that infants are innocent and have no knowledge of sin. Scripture says "the soul that sinneth, shall die".
Righteous would be someone who does righteous acts. Infants do nothing, have no knowledge between good and evil.

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Hello Amy.

Ladies first.

No, "How's that?" You have added to my words. It's no big deal you know? I'm a nobody from nowhere, no need to get excited. A bit of reserve please I'm English.

Those who do not hear are not saved? So, Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message... Is not true? All fall short of the glory of God but the kids? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message but not infants? They don't need faith for salvation? They don't need to hear the word?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by God giving you the ears to hear with. (Good news nep. ) Show me scripture that says reprobate's infants go to Heaven or stop saying they do. I don't say either way because I can argue from either position but I can't prove it because both arguments have merit. Sitting on the fence, which God has provided, is obedience. There is a point.

Who are you to say they cannot have faith? Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
John the baptist knew his Master before either were born. If you want to come against me again on this you must supply the meaning to this verse if it means John did not know his Master.

I have made it plain and have insisted on it, that the children of the children of God are saved and I will add to that with until the 1000th generation. How can you say I believe all infants are toast? It shows you have not understood what I'm saying, that's for sure me dear. I appeal to your feminine qualities, hear me out.

I will scripture it.
Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

If you care to notice that He only holds a grudge for 3 or 4 generations. The son does suffer the sins of the father but not because the father commits the sin but just because God says so.

If I have not clearly stated that the bible is silent on the fate of the reprobate's children I do so now. As for scriptural integrity, those that claim reprobates children are damned are secure in the scriptures. It takes some imagination to secure their destiny. I prefer to secure their destiny in the Lord but I'm out of scripture doing so somewhat. I would like to argue the point and if Sober is listening I'll give you a run for your money. But I cannot win as scripture is explicit, ...faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17.

...faith comes from hearing the message - it says nothing about understanding it but you must hear it.

Whatd'ya think now?

john.

 

That takes care of the natural death but in no way answered how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born into this world already dead.

Neither answers when was Apostle alive without the Law, but the commandments came and he died. Now he was still alive naturally so Paul must of meant dead in treapasses of sin which would lead to the second death without repentance.

Me beginning to think we are kicking a dead horse here, and he is not going to get up!

 

Bob.

I'm repling to your post #183 but this is the second time I have seen this so I'll answer it first: Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad..."Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11,13.

It is of no use to you as salvation and reprobation takes place before anything good or bad is taken into account. (Against mainstream Calvinism I think.)

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

God is Sovereign. That is what is I mean when I say God is Sovereign.

john the Calvinist.

 

I look to God for my answers, God Bless,

 

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I hear the hiss of the Serpent Bob. Why is that from an ordained minister?

GE 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

john.

 

You are out of line, and should be ashamed of yourself.

 

I win Bob? You do not contend for the truth? It's hard to tell as you haven't the manners to address people as you should.

john.

 

Teach me. That is your job description. Love is not an option it is a command. You are evasive.

john.

 

How can a soul die if it is born into this world already dead?


You will never overcome just this one scripture and that setttles it. I think you are unteachable and follow John Calvin more than God.

 

Bob.

Then I shall do a Spurgeon on you and pray that God has mercy on those that are righteous as well as those who are sinners. (edit: That is Spurgeon ain't it?)

Wanna bet?

john.

 

I don't gamble.

I see you didn't have an answer for the soul that sinneth shall die either.

Come to think about it, you haven't answered anything.

 

Bob.

Wanna bet?

Then I shall do a Spurgeon on you again and pray that God has mercy on those that are righteous as well as those who are sinners and ask Jesus to take over.
MT 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

That might be true for you that is in the Hands of the Lord. My duty to you has been fulfilled. I pray for you and tell you the truth regardless of the regard you pay to me. My conscience is clear. The moral high-ground I think.

And if I did that would make no difference to my salvation as I am saved by grace and not by what I think.

Jesus told us to believe, trust in Him. I believe Jesus died for my sins therefore I am saved, deluded fool that I am. So it goes for the Wesleys'. If they believed Jesus died for them then they can free wheel downhill as far as they like but God will stand them up, even if their works are stubble and hay, no more than that though.

Isaiah, (the real one ) said, ISA 28:9 "Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 10 For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there." 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there - so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

Do you understand that?

john.

 

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