Babies are righteous?

[johnp.]

The answer to B is "through sinning". the nature he had wasn't changed into a sin nature...he wasn't born to physically or spirutially die.

The change that took place changed our nature completely. Now we who are elect are being transformed into the likeness of God, this is what Adam lost. Since a transformation is required the change was fundamental.

2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Bob.

Strange that his church would use these statements as their own, yet Bob does not affirm them. How does that work?

Oh yes Bob does affirm them too, you just lack the understand to see it. You don't know what "through faith" means.

ARTICLE 4. We believe in the doctrine of original sin and of man's inability to recover himself from the fallen state he is in by nature, therefore the Saviour is needed for our redemption.

Why the 'and', doesn't your version of original sin match up to orthodoxy? (I am orthodox here. )

Seems to me it should be no great problem to say when Apostle Paul was alive without the Law?

But the original sin that you say you affirm says we are born dead. "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me," (Ps. 51: 5.) How can you claim Paul was alive before rebirth yet claim to believe in the doctrine of original sin? Sweet for sour?

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one," says the Book of Job, (Job 14: 4.)

You now need an immaculate conception don't you, for a child to be born spiritually alive it must come from the spiritually alive and mum isn't is she? Mum will be unclean by the time she has precious.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

But the original sin that you say you affirm says we are born dead. "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me," (Ps. 51: 5.) How can you claim Paul was alive before rebirth yet claim to believe in the doctrine of original sin? Sweet for sour?

Because the Bible tells me so. Rom 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

You don't give an answer to the above scripture because you don't have one. (answer please)

You have to believe babies go to hell or it would destroy your theology.

Also, it says the mother concieved him in sin, not he conceived the mother.

Also, you don't have a hold on Grace, it belongs to God, and by Grace are we saved, "through faith".

We believe God created man with a choice to believe or not believe and gave all men the same opportunity. We sure don't believe the path to hell is covered with the bones of little babies.

Again, you lack the understanding "through faith". The whole plan of Salvation depends on believing that Jesus is the Christ.

No, we don't believe no one can save themselves, even little babies need the Grace of God.

Mat 18:10¶Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
(answer please)

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
(answer please)

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
(answer please)

You don't have a hold on the definition of "orginal sin" either, for there are many different deflnitions given.


It is the word of God. Show me a scripture where a little child went to hell please, or even a scripture written to a child? (answer please)

Scripture says it is appointed unto man "once" to die, because Adam sinned. The spiritual dead have to meet the second death. All men will meet the appointment of death.

Scripture says "the soul that sinneth shall die". How can the soul die if its already dead? (answer please)

 

[Brother Bob]

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Please answer how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born already dead?

 

[Amy.G]

johnp:

God has set the means by which all men are saved and that is by hearing His word.

johnp

The answer to that is not in scripture unless one wishes to believe Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Those who do not hear are not saved. That is the only real answer scripture gives and those that hold this view should be respected not condemned.

How's that?

john.

How's that????
That's a terrible interpretation of scripture.
Babies can hear the gospel, but they cannot understand it or have faith. By your theology, all babies are unsaved.

 

[ituttut]

Read Genesis 18 and 19. Do you not suppose that in all of Sodom or Gomorrah there were more than ten babies in all the cities?
If God destroyed all of Sodom and Gomorrah because not ten righteous could be found, it seems as if He found not righteousness in the young children and babies. Or do you suppose there were no young children and babies?
How about the flood? Why were the innocent babies and young children not brought onto the ark?

None are righteous on their own, infants or not. Only by the Grace of God, and Noah found Grace in the eyes of God. Not out of the millions or billions did God find but one righteous. Because of One made righteous by the Grace of God 8 souls were saved.

 

[Brother Bob]

None are righteous on their own, infants or not. Only by the Grace of God, and Noah found Grace in the eyes of God. Not out of the millions or billions did God find but one righteous. Because of One made righteous by the Grace of God 8 souls were saved. __________________
Christian faith, ituttut

We are talking about innocence here, that infants are innocent and have no knowledge of sin. Scripture says "the soul that sinneth, shall die".
Righteous would be someone who does righteous acts. Infants do nothing, have no knowledge between good and evil.

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[johnp.]

Please answer how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born already dead?

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Hello Amy.

Ladies first.

How's that????

No, "How's that?" You have added to my words. It's no big deal you know? I'm a nobody from nowhere, no need to get excited. A bit of reserve please I'm English.

That's a terrible interpretation of scripture.

Those who do not hear are not saved? So, Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message... Is not true? All fall short of the glory of God but the kids? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message but not infants? They don't need faith for salvation? They don't need to hear the word?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by God giving you the ears to hear with. (Good news nep. ) Show me scripture that says reprobate's infants go to Heaven or stop saying they do. I don't say either way because I can argue from either position but I can't prove it because both arguments have merit. Sitting on the fence, which God has provided, is obedience. There is a point.

Babies can hear the gospel, but they cannot understand it or have faith.

Who are you to say they cannot have faith? Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
John the baptist knew his Master before either were born. If you want to come against me again on this you must supply the meaning to this verse if it means John did not know his Master.

By your theology, all babies are unsaved.

I have made it plain and have insisted on it, that the children of the children of God are saved and I will add to that with until the 1000th generation. How can you say I believe all infants are toast? It shows you have not understood what I'm saying, that's for sure me dear. I appeal to your feminine qualities, hear me out.

By your theology, all babies are unsaved.

I will scripture it.
Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

If you care to notice that He only holds a grudge for 3 or 4 generations. The son does suffer the sins of the father but not because the father commits the sin but just because God says so.

By your theology, all babies are unsaved.

If I have not clearly stated that the bible is silent on the fate of the reprobate's children I do so now. As for scriptural integrity, those that claim reprobates children are damned are secure in the scriptures. It takes some imagination to secure their destiny. I prefer to secure their destiny in the Lord but I'm out of scripture doing so somewhat. I would like to argue the point and if Sober is listening I'll give you a run for your money. But I cannot win as scripture is explicit, ...faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17.

...faith comes from hearing the message - it says nothing about understanding it but you must hear it.

Whatd'ya think now?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Please answer how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born already dead?

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

That takes care of the natural death but in no way answered how the soul that sinneth shall die if it is born into this world already dead.

Neither answers when was Apostle alive without the Law, but the commandments came and he died. Now he was still alive naturally so Paul must of meant dead in treapasses of sin which would lead to the second death without repentance.

Me beginning to think we are kicking a dead horse here, and he is not going to get up!

 

[johnp.]

Bob.

...which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil...

I'm repling to your post #183 but this is the second time I have seen this so I'll answer it first: Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad..."Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11,13.

It is of no use to you as salvation and reprobation takes place before anything good or bad is taken into account. (Against mainstream Calvinism I think.)

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

God is Sovereign. That is what is I mean when I say God is Sovereign.

john the Calvinist.

 

[Brother Bob]

I look to God for my answers, God Bless,

 

[johnp.]

That takes care of the natural death...

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I hear the hiss of the Serpent Bob. Why is that from an ordained minister?

GE 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

I hear the hiss of the Serpent Bob. Why is that from an ordained minister?

You are out of line, and should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[johnp.]

I look to God for my answers, God Bless,

I win Bob? You do not contend for the truth? It's hard to tell as you haven't the manners to address people as you should.

john.

 

[johnp.]

You are out of line, and should be ashamed of yourself.

Teach me. That is your job description. Love is not an option it is a command. You are evasive.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

How can a soul die if it is born into this world already dead?


You will never overcome just this one scripture and that setttles it. I think you are unteachable and follow John Calvin more than God.

 

[johnp.]

Bob.

the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him

Then I shall do a Spurgeon on you and pray that God has mercy on those that are righteous as well as those who are sinners. (edit: That is Spurgeon ain't it?)

[edit]You will never overcome just this one scripture and that setttles it.

Wanna bet?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wanna bet?

john

I don't gamble.

I see you didn't have an answer for the soul that sinneth shall die either.

Come to think about it, you haven't answered anything.

 

[johnp.]

Bob.

I don't gamble.

Wanna bet?

I see you didn't have an answer for the soul that sinneth shall die either.

Then I shall do a Spurgeon on you again and pray that God has mercy on those that are righteous as well as those who are sinners and ask Jesus to take over.
MT 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Come to think about it, you haven't answered anything.

That might be true for you that is in the Hands of the Lord. My duty to you has been fulfilled. I pray for you and tell you the truth regardless of the regard you pay to me. My conscience is clear. The moral high-ground I think.

I think you are unteachable and follow John Calvin more than God.

And if I did that would make no difference to my salvation as I am saved by grace and not by what I think.

Jesus told us to believe, trust in Him. I believe Jesus died for my sins therefore I am saved, deluded fool that I am. So it goes for the Wesleys'. If they believed Jesus died for them then they can free wheel downhill as far as they like but God will stand them up, even if their works are stubble and hay, no more than that though.

Isaiah, (the real one ) said, ISA 28:9 "Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 10 For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there." 11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there - so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

Do you understand that?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

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