Babies are righteous?

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
Rom 7:9 Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life



So Paul was there when Moses brought down the 10 commandments?

This is the answer to the whole thing. You lack understanding of the scriptures that Paul was alive without the law. It was when he was a child without understanding but there came a time the Law entered and he died in sin. I don't expect you to understand though if you are reading scripture to infants, do you baptize them also?
I think I will accept webdog's answer of just reading to a tree, that pretty well sums it up.

 

[johnp.]

PS 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children--

The children of the children of God are saved JK.

Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

1) David mentioned going to him...his dead infant soon.

David could just have meant the grave.

2) Jesus mentioning that the spirits of little ones behold the face of God.

Do you mean the angels?

3) stillborn and infant babies, while having that old Adamic nature do not sin.

Condemnation came through Adam so it doesn't matter if one sins or not as regards to condemnation.

john.

 

[johnp.]

I don't expect you to understand though if you are reading to infants.

Samuel's mum said, 1SA 2:6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.
That's cool ain't it? 1SA 2:9 He will guard the feet of his saints, but the wicked will be silenced in darkness...
I was looking to see how old Samuel was when he started in ministry. He was extrodinarly forward for his age, it was after he was weaned. I was always talking to my kids and telling them stories. I assumed all parents told their kids stories.
1SA 1:24 After he was weaned, she took the boy with her, young as he was, along with a three-year-old bull, an ephah of flour and a skin of wine, and brought him to the house of the LORD at Shiloh.
1SA 1:28 So now I give him to the LORD. For his whole life he will be given over to the LORD." And he worshiped the LORD there.

Would you like to comment on that Bob?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

24: And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young.

You are desperate to try to say this was an infant. It does not say how old the child was and I am not going to put an age on him for I don't know.

I do know this though, you can give your child to the Lord, all you want but when he/she comes to age, they will choose who they want, regardless of you saying you give them to the Lord.

There has been a lot of children given by their parents and when they grow up, they find they are lacking and seek for the truth themselves, including several that have been on BB.

What worries me is some parents causing their children to settle down on something short of salvation and go through life thinking they are saved, when if fact they are in need of a Saviour.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

This is the answer to the whole thing. You lack understanding of the scriptures that Paul was alive without the law. It was when he was a child without understanding but there came a time the Law entered and he died in sin. I don't expect you to understand though if you are reading scripture to infants, do you baptize them also?
I think I will accept webdog's answer of just reading to a tree, that pretty well sums it up.

If you choose to believe that the reading of God's word has no effect on young children, that's your lousy opinion.
I choose to believe that my children are blessed by the hearing of God's word even while they are yet unable to profess understanding.
Most children understand what is being told them, long before they can respond with their own words.
I also believe Psalm 8:2 which you have yet to address.

Furthermore, apparantly creation in some capacity praises God, so why shouldn't babies and children be understanding of the spiritual realm?

Without taking the time to explain the story here, I'll just reference a story Ronald Nash tells in his book When a Baby Dies tells about a sick newborn who was in intensive care. Later as a small child she expressed to her parents an understanding of God's presence during her time as sick newborn that is beyond our understanding.

I choose to believe that God's Spirit is capable of communicating truths to all of his human creation, babies or handicapped alike.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, but we are not God.

Most children understand what is being told them, long before they can respond with their own words.

How do you know this if they can't talk? You have a special gift of reading their minds?
I have heard them say da da or goo goo, but wasn't able to understand it.

You haven't answered when was Paul alive without the Law?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Yea, but we are not God.

What is that in response to?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I think I will accept webdog's answer of just reading to a tree, that pretty well sums it up.

I think I will go with the Bible, Joel 2:16.

16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.

Children and infants hearing the Word of God proclaimed and prayed in their presence apparantly was important to God.
(See the thread on Baptist view of children for other references)

 

[Brother Bob]

God can do whatever He wants.

Num 22:28And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?


Joel 2:32
32: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

16: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.


Seems to me God was talking to the adults, what makes you think he ever spoke in the presence of the children? I don't see it in these scriptures.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

God can do whatever He wants.

Num 22:28And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?


Joel 2:32
32: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

16: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.



Seems to me God was talking to the adults, what makes you think he ever spoke in the presence of the children? I don't see it in these scriptures.

Bob, you can't really mean that. Your low view of children is astounding.
Joel 2:12-19

12 "Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the LORD your God.

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.

16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.

17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, "Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?' "

The LORD's Answer
18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.
19 The LORD will reply to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.

So God called for all Israel to be gathered for a time of repentance and renewed dedication to follow His Law, and included are children and babies.
Then the LORD replies to them, meaning all Israel who is gathered before Him, promising blessing for their obedience.
Children being part of the covenant is God's idea and is important to Him.

Did you check the other passages on the other "children" thread?
You cannot tell me that the Israelite children were not included in the times of prayer and the reading of the Law.
So what about Psalm 8:2?

2 From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise
because of your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.

Any reason why you haven't discussed this verse?

 

[skypair]

I'm "bailing" here...

If you guys haven't got it by now, you ain't gonna get it.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

It means what greater witness than God would by the work of His fingers gives us babes and the moon, stars, etc. Have you ever looked at a little baby and say "thank you God for such a blessing"?

They gathered all the children for the exedous also. That don't mean they preached to them. You must believe according to the scriptures and infants and children can't believe that which they don't understand. Even you admitted they didn't know what you were saying. I am not saying you should not raise your children in the way they should go and teach them about Jesus, but only when they are old enough to understand what is being taught and that they are a sinner. How can they repent of they don't know they are lost. Which I say in the first place, if we were as innocent as the little child we would be better off.

When was Paul alive without the Law???/

 

[johnp.]

You are desperate to try to say this was an infant. It does not say how old the child was and I am not going to put an age on him for I don't know.

What is it, the age of responsibility Bob, 8, 10, older? Still weaning the teenager was she? I'm not desperate. The scripture even comments on his young age.

I choose to believe that my children are blessed by the hearing of God's word even while they are yet unable to profess understanding. (Isaiah)

ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

How do you know this if they can't talk? You have a special gift of reading their minds?

Perceptive parents do not need to read minds as baby makes itself plain.
Your they can't talk is meaningless as babies do communicate and understand the things that are common to it. Have you not heard of baby sign? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Sign

I have heard them say da da or goo goo, but wasn't able to understand it.

That's because you wasn't receiving the communications that baby was sending. Babies communicate their wishes, even my cats let me know what they want. I do seem to have that da da goo goo problem with my wife though.

what makes you think he ever spoke in the presence of the children? I don't see it in these scriptures.

He wanted them gathered with the people.
Luke 1:44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
Baby John was glad at meeting his Master before he was born.

...if we were as innocent as the little child we would be better off.

JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

What scripture do you read the little ones, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, etc?

 

[Amy.G]

I'm confused. It sounds like some of you think babies and very young children can understand the gospel. They can't even understand why they shouldn't cross the street or touch a hot stove. They can't possibly understand what sin is and why we need a Savior.

I don't know what happens to babies at death. Since the Bible is not clear on it, none of us really can claim to have the answer. Maybe they go to paradise and the Lord offers them salvation there, just like He has the rest of us while we are on this earth. I don't know. But, no one else knows either. I do know that babies are unable to either accept or reject salvation. They are still innocent though, since they don't have the law and therefore cannot transgress against it.

 

[webdog]

If you choose to believe that the reading of God's word has no effect on young children, that's your lousy opinion.

Who are you to condemn the man's opinion? Please leave the attitude at the door...

Without taking the time to explain the story here, I'll just reference a story Ronald Nash tells in his book When a Baby Dies tells about a sick newborn who was in intensive care. Later as a small child she expressed to her parents an understanding of God's presence during her time as sick newborn that is beyond our understanding.

In one breath you claim to believe the Bible alone on this, then quote this story. Which is it?

I choose to believe that God's Spirit is capable of communicating truths to all of his human creation, babies or handicapped alike

Just not the reprobate...the "non elect", huh?

 

[johnp.]

I'm confused. It sounds like some of you think babies and very young children can understand the gospel.

ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God says the word does the work that He sends His word out to do. He sends it for a purpose, what is a babies understanding got to do with it?
Deut 4:10 Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children."

It is not important for us to know the effect we are told to teach our children.

But, no one else knows either.

That's right.

They are still innocent though, since they don't have the law and therefore cannot transgress against it.

That doesn't make any difference as condemnation comes through Adam Amy.G.

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

How do you know this if they can't talk? You have a special gift of reading their minds?
I have heard them say da da or goo goo, but wasn't able to understand it.

I'm embarrassed for you, Bob.
Your replies are absurd.
My son did not speak in coherent words as an infant, yet he could follow basic instructions and respond appropriately to stimuli.

You haven't answered when was Paul alive without the Law?

I gave you the link to the thread where all traditional interpretations were put on the table and discussed. I'm trying to keep this thread on topic.
If you really want to know you'll go read the relevant posts.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

It means what greater witness than God would by the work of His fingers gives us babes and the moon, stars, etc. Have you ever looked at a little baby and say "thank you God for such a blessing"?

So when we see children, we praise God?? While that is true, that's not what this verse is saying.
This verse doesn't have adults praising Him, it says that infants and children praise Him because He has ordained them to.
The small ones shame God's enemies into silence.

They gathered all the children for the exedous also. That don't mean they preached to them.

If you remember the story of the Passover was intended to be an oral tradition passed down from generation to generation, which it still is.
When Jews celebrate the Passover, children answer specific questions about this act of Redemption. They were taught why the blood covering was necessary amongst other things. So yes, the children were preached to.

You must believe according to the scriptures and infants and children can't believe that which they don't understand. Even you admitted they didn't know what you were saying.

Infants cannot express their belief. It does not mean that they are without an awareness of the presence of God's Spirit. Children experiencing peace of mind is one example of God's Spirit that may be working in their life.
Young children who delight in singing praises to God, learning to memorize His Word, learning short answers to catechism question, thanking Him for loved ones in prayer all point to the Spirit's work. My son has been doing all of these for close to 2 years and he's not even 4 years old yet. Our goal as parents is to saturate our home with God's presence and a Christian world view. God alone saves, but he uses parents as instruments.

I am not saying you should not raise your children in the way they should go and teach them about Jesus, but only when they are old enough to understand what is being taught and that they are a sinner.

You underestimate the power of God's Spirit working in young hearts.
I don't want to wait until my son can correctly explain the process of salvation. I want him to know now that he is a sinner who needs Jesus.

How can they repent of they don't know they are lost.

Exactly.
So we teach them about sin.
We teach them about God's holiness.
We teach them about Jesus' death for sinners.
That's what preaching is, right?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

What scripture do you read the little ones, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, etc?

Read you Bible, Bob.
Deut. 6:4-9

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.