Babies are righteous?

[johnp.]

.................

Lost for words Bob?

Isaiah 28:9 ...To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast?
Isaiah asks if one thinks one is teaching one just weaned, just recently away from the breast. I wonder why he thought that one just away from the breast was teachable because you don't do you Bob?

This is a point isn't it? What one learns just off the breast is impressed? [edit: missing space.] That was when Samuel went and devoted himself to the Lord wasn't it, just weaned?

john.

 

[Amy.G]

Lost for words Bob?

Isaiah 28:9 ...To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast?
Isaiah asks if one thinks one is teaching one just weaned, just recently away from the breast. I wonder why he thought that one just away from the breast was teachable because you don't do you Bob?

This is a point isn't it? What one learns just off the breast is impressed? [edit: missing space.] That was when Samuel went and devoted himself to the Lord wasn't it, just weaned?

john.

Actually, Hannah gave him to the Lord.

1 Samuel 1
27 For this child I prayed, and the Lord has granted me my petition which I asked of Him. 28 Therefore I also have lent him to the Lord; as long as he lives he shall be lent to the Lord." So they worshiped the Lord there.

 

[bound]

Because children are salvifically unexercised potential they lack copability to be damned by a Merciful and Just God. Though they lack inherently the potential for just acts before God they lack copability (i.e. they may not be 'righteous' but they are in fact 'innocent' of personal sin.) Our modern legal system is mapped on this same Judeo-Christian sense of copability and innocense.

 

[npetreley]

Because children are salvifically unexercised potential they lack copability to be damned by a Merciful and Just God.

To quote a wise participant on BB, namely webdog, don't presume to tell God what He can or cannot do.

 

[webdog]

...he can reiterate the same justice God has told us about, though.

I think that's the first compliment I've received here...even if it was tongue-in-cheek

 

[bound]

To quote a wise participant on BB, namely webdog, don't presume to tell God what He can or cannot do.

Truly wise words. I don't disbute them but we have it on good authority that the innocence of little children is the 'stuff' of the Kingdom of God...

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3 KJV

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. - Matthew 19:13-15 KJV

 

[Amy.G]

Truly wise words. I don't disbute them but we have it on good authority that the innocence of little children is the 'stuff' of the Kingdom of God...

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3 KJV

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. - Matthew 19:13-15 KJV

Wise words, indeed. :thumbs:
If children were not considered innocent by our Lord, why would such make up the kingdom of heaven? If children are guilty, is the kingdom of heaven made up of the guility?

 

[ituttut]

We are talking about innocence here, that infants are innocent and have no knowledge of sin. Scripture says "the soul that sinneth, shall die".
Righteous would be someone who does righteous acts. Infants do nothing, have no knowledge between good and evil.

I beg to differ, for reformedbeliever address' righteousness not found in infants, and in my answer I agreed with His "it seems as if He found not righteousness in the young children and babies".

Am I misreading you? You remark and intimate that we make ourselves righteous? We are only made righteous in Him, and not before, otherwise it is Our Works that Save Us, and Not His.

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

And that's a promise He will keep.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
We are talking about innocence here, that infants are innocent and have no knowledge of sin. Scripture says "the soul that sinneth, shall die".
Righteous would be someone who does righteous acts. Infants do nothing, have no knowledge between good and evil.

I beg to differ, for reformedbeliever address' righteousness not found in infants, and in my answer I agreed with His "it seems as if He found not righteousness in the young children and babies".

Am I misreading you? You remark and intimate that we make ourselves righteous? We are only made righteous in Him, and not before, otherwise it is Our Works that Save Us, and Not His.

If you are going to address me, then please address my posts.

This is a point isn't it? What one learns just off the breast is impressed? [edit: missing space.] That was when Samuel went and devoted himself to the Lord wasn't it, just weaned?

john

9: Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14: Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

It plainly tells us who He was talking to, but you have to read farther than where he was disturbed by all of them being "drunk".

I really find it childish that grown men would try to say God teaches the babies His doctrine. Amazing!! All the time saying those same babies bones line the path to "hell". No wonder you are on the decline as a theology.

 

[npetreley]

...he can reiterate the same justice God has told us about, though.

Right - you can tell God what He can and cannot do if it happens to agree with your theology. I get it.

 

[webdog]

Right - you can tell God what He can and cannot do if it happens to agree with your theology. I get it.

Of course I didn't say that...and you know that. If God tells us what His justice and righteousness is, and we pass that on to others, we aren't "telling God" anything.
Quit with the snide remarks and discuss these matters as an adult, please.

 

[Brother Bob]

A Calvinist Faces Death

Question But what gives you that assurance? Isn't it possible for people to think that they believed, and be mistaken and not be saved?

Albert Mohler Jr.
It's not some kind of game. I believe it is possible for a person to wrongly believe they are saved, but it's because they don't really believe in Christ or otherwise confused the
Gospel.


Question: One misconception people may have about Calvinism is that it holds that Christians act as though they had free will — when God has orchestrated everything. Can you address that?

Calvinists believe that the human will is instrumental in the experience of salvation. We would take issue with the idea of absolute free will, where people are talking about the priority of the human will in salvation. The big question is whether it is possible for the divine and human wills to operate in absolute harmony. I believe it is.

Outspoken evangelical leader and president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Albert Mohler Jr.

Seem to me that Mohler Jr. is saying "you must believe". We been saying that all along, even before surgery.

Seems to me the Leader of SBC Seminary Albert Mohler Jr. is saying our free will works in harmony with God's Sovernity.

I didn't read it all but so far, he seems to understand the scripture. I think this is a Calvinist that I could get along with.

 

[skypair]

How can a soul die if it is born into this world already dead?


You will never overcome just this one scripture and that setttles it. I think you are unteachable and follow John Calvin more than God.

Yup -- you needn't bother with johnp unless you are just bored. It is sad, really.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Because children are salvifically unexercised potential they lack copability to be damned by a Merciful and Just God. Though they lack inherently the potential for just acts before God they lack copability (i.e. they may not be 'righteous' but they are in fact 'innocent' of personal sin.) Our modern legal system is mapped on this same Judeo-Christian sense of copability and innocense.

I promised to get home and post this. Renald Showers says that Adam had an "unconfirmed favorable predisposition" towards God. This, I find, is the state of infants also. Not yet tempted --- not yet sinners --- destined to go to the Lord should they die prematurely.

skypair

 

[Andy T.]

I promised to get home and post this. Renald Showers says that Adam had an "unconfirmed favorable predisposition" towards God. This, I find, is the state of infants also. Not yet tempted --- not yet sinners --- destined to go to the Lord should they die prematurely.

I don't know who Mr. Showers is, but this statement is essentially Pelagian. It is heretical. It is outside the pale. It denies that we are born with a sin nature. No one since the Fall has ever had a "favorable predisposition" towards God until they are born again.

 

[Andy T.]

Truly wise words. I don't disbute them but we have it on good authority that the innocence of little children is the 'stuff' of the Kingdom of God...

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3 KJV

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. - Matthew 19:13-15 KJV

Jesus never declares their absolute innocence in light of God's holiness. Jesus uses the example of becoming like children to show us who is the "greatest" in the Kingdom - i.e., it is he who humbles himself below all others. Children, especially at that time, had no rights or standing. They were the lowest part of society. Their identity was completely tied in with their father (and secondly mother) - somewhat like today, but radically moreso back then. In the same way, our identity is to be completely tied in with our Father and to consider ourselves as nothing, with no standing before others. He is teaching on humility and used the standing of children as an example of humility.

 

[Brother Bob]

Seems to me He held little children in "high regard". He sure held them higher than the adults.

 

[bound]

Jesus never declares their absolute innocence in light of God's holiness. Jesus uses the example of becoming like children to show us who is the "greatest" in the Kingdom - i.e., it is he who humbles himself below all others. Children, especially at that time, had no rights or standing. They were the lowest part of society. Their identity was completely tied in with their father (and secondly mother) - somewhat like today, but radically moreso back then. In the same way, our identity is to be completely tied in with our Father and to consider ourselves as nothing, with no standing before others. He is teaching on humility and used the standing of children as an example of humility.

Yep that is one way of looking at it but I've read Reformation Fathers using these passages to refute Roman Catholic Doctrine on the necessity of Infant Baptism. Once you throw out the necessity of Baptism of Regeneration as articulated by Cyprian and later elaborated into a full-blown Doctrine of Original Sin by Augustine and replace those with Believer's Baptism and an Age of Accountability I fail to see your rationale....

Are you refuting Baptist Teaching of these Doctrines? If so why are we in the 'Baptist Only' Forums?

 

[Andy T.]

Yep that is one way of looking at it but I've read Reformation Fathers using these passages to refute Roman Catholic Doctrine on the necessity of Infant Baptism. Once you throw out the necessity of Baptism of Regeneration as articulated by Cyprian and later elaborated into a full-blown Doctrine of Original Sin by Augustine and replace those with Believer's Baptism and an Age of Accountability I fail to see your rationale....

Are you refuting Baptist Teaching of these Doctrines? If so why are we in the 'Baptist Only' Forums?

In regards to AofA, there is not only one Baptist teaching on the matter. There is a wide range of AofA doctrines and nuances of such among Baptists. So no, I do not have to 'tow the line' with your take on AofA, in order to consider myself a Baptist.

Secondly, show me how my interpretation of the above verses on children necessitates a belief in Infant Baptism or Baptismal Regeneration. That ought ot be interesting.

Lastly, are you aware that there is a great number of Baptists (Calvinist and non-Calvinist) who hold to essentially the same doctrine of Original Sin that Augustine did? I'm not talking about his views on baptism, only his view that Scripture teaches the imputation of Adam's sin and guilt to all people.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Jesus never declares their absolute innocence in light of God's holiness. Jesus uses the example of becoming like children to show us who is the "greatest" in the Kingdom - i.e., it is he who humbles himself below all others. Children, especially at that time, had no rights or standing. They were the lowest part of society. Their identity was completely tied in with their father (and secondly mother) - somewhat like today, but radically moreso back then. In the same way, our identity is to be completely tied in with our Father and to consider ourselves as nothing, with no standing before others. He is teaching on humility and used the standing of children as an example of humility.

It was not uncommon for the unwanted children (new born infants) to be thrown out and left "squirming in their blood". This was in reference to a new born that still had its cord attached to the placenta.