Babies In Hell 2

[Forever Settled]

...die in your sins....

HUH ?

 

[percho]

Really ?
They are capable of attempted murder while IN the womb Sinless and innocent...Not hardly !

Genesis 25:22
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.

You might want to look into that verse a little... because it shows your theory about babies is wrong.

Amen and God choose the younger, while still in the womb, neither of which had done good or evil, as the one unto the righteousness of God which was to come through the Son of God.

And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Gen 28:10,13,14

 

[Forever Settled]

Amen and God choose the younger, while still in the womb, neither of which had done good or evil, as the one unto the righteousness of God which was to come through the Son of God.

They had done no works in this world.....but they had been very busy with their attempted murder in the womb.

 

[percho]

I'm not out 'to win', Willis. In fact I'm pulling a @HankD in advocating a view that I'm not necessarily cemented in, an alternative, playing the 'devil's advocate'. See this. Note the last sentence. The 'theory' (Federal Headship is a theory also) that the Atonement eliminated Adam's curse for the entire race and all are now born innocent until they themselves 'sin after the likeness of Adam`s transgression' explains 'innocent until guilty' for children. The tension revealed in the first thread with all the 'yes we're all born hellbound but infants don't go to hell' votes goes away with this view.



Absolutely. Mediator.

10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5



Ok, I agree. Not mediator for the natural man, but, He was 'the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world’.



NOUN
an absence of preconceived ideas or predetermined goals; a clean slate.

Thanks for the compliment, that’s exactly my approach to scripture. It’s a shame that more of you ‘Reformed types’ don’t adhere to your own ‘sola scripture’ mantra and exercise your right to private judgement as espoused by the original reformers and think outside of your box.

And just maybe, in Adam, we are all guilty, for we are all, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalms 51:5 Therefore Jesus said all, anthrōpos, whether one minute old or one hundred years old, must be born again, born from above, to see, enter or inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[percho]

Since this is a continuation of the previous "Babies in Hell" discussion, I would like to address some points made by @percho. If it's against the rules to carry over discussions, I do apologize.

1 Thess. 4:16 is about our resurrected bodies, to be sure. You also quoted Ro. 6:5, which is also about our resurrection. These verses don't go into when we will be resurrected, though. I still contend that those who died in the Faith before Christ was resurrected were in "Paradise" aka "Abraham's Bosom", as you seem to allude to in your post earlier.

David was in Abraham's Bosom, but is now in Heaven. Eph. 4:8-10 tells us that the Old Testament saints were released to enter Heaven. 2 Cor. 5:8 tells us that to be "absent from the body" is to be at home with the Lord. This is where David's son, and David himself are now.

Eph 4:8 does not say OT saints were carried anywhere. It says, He captures/captured ᾐχμαλώτευσεν vi Aor Act 3 Sg, captivity, αἰχμαλωσίαν n_ Acc Sg f,When he ascended.

Which is to say the exact same thing Romans 6:9,10 says; Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. He led captivity, death, captive. Then gave gifts to men. Acts 2:33 NKJV “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

 

[Lodic]

Eph 4:8 does not say OT saints were carried anywhere. It says, He captures/captured ᾐχμαλώτευσεν vi Aor Act 3 Sg, captivity, αἰχμαλωσίαν n_ Acc Sg f,When he ascended.

Which is to say the exact same thing Romans 6:9,10 says; Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. He led captivity, death, captive. Then gave gifts to men. Acts 2:33 NKJV “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

So you contend that the OT saints are in Hades / Sheol until the Resurrection of the Dead? If so, what of those who died after Christ's Resurrection? Are they also in Hades, or did they go to Heaven?

 

[percho]

Ultimately, what is that, gift, of the Holy Spirit, that Holy Spirit of promise, going to do for one?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11
And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth, Thes 2:13 YLT Van's favorite verse that he does not understand.
in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13,14
See also Rom, 8:15,23,24

 

[percho]

So you contend that the OT saints are in Hades / Sheol until the Resurrection of the Dead? If so, what of those who died after Christ's Resurrection? Are they also in Hades, or did they go to Heaven?

for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'' 1 Cor 15:53-55

What is the, mortal that must put on immortality?

Does that take place in a moment at the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump?

Is that at the return of Christ.

Is that when it can be said? where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

 

[Lodic]

for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'' 1 Cor 15:53-55

What is the, mortal that must put on immortality?

Does that take place in a moment at the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump?

Is that at the return of Christ.

Is that when it can be said? where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

I'm familiar with the passage, of course. Since Christ is victorious over death and the grave, everyone who has ever died, having faith in Him, has gone on to Heaven.

 

[percho]

I'm familiar with the passage, of course. Since Christ is victorious over death and the grave, everyone who has ever died, having faith in Him, has gone on to Heaven.

Ok.

 

[tyndale1946]

I only have one question... How many of you preachers went to their pulpits this last Sunday and used the topic of Kentucky's attention getter?... I didn't think so!... Brother Glen

 

[Aaron]

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

So, according to the Calvinist 'Adam narrative' when the books are opened infants that die who have no works of their own will be judged by Adam’s works, right?

I reject the Calvinist constructed ‘Adam narrative’. I’ll stick with the text of scripture. We’re all going to be judged according to our works, not Adam’s. The atonement wiped the slate clean from Adam’s transgression - Romans 5:18.

The righteous judgment of God who will render to every man according to his works. Not Adam's.

You're forgetting the works of the heart. To what member is the Tenth Commandment written?

 

[37818]

Really ?
They are capable of attempted murder while IN the womb Sinless and innocent...Not hardly !

Genesis 25:22
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.

You might want to look into that verse a little... because it shows your theory about babies is wrong.

According to the word of God, called wicked and born liers. Psalms 58:3. Yet in regards to Genesis 25:22 see the argument of Romans 11:9. And that Christ died for the whole world, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:14.

 

[kyredneck]

You're forgetting the works of the heart. To what member is the Tenth Commandment written?

You're preaching to the choir here, but that works both ways, i.e., the thoughts and intents of the regenerate heart that hungers and thirsts after righteousness.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: Ro 7

IMO, wrong desire is at the root of all sin.

 

[kyredneck]

I am neither. What I have presented magnifies the Atonement, not man.

No.....you Demagnify the atonement.......

I would never do that. Maybe it's the Calvinist that has overly restricted the scope of the Atonement.

you attempt to apply the atonement to people who will end up in hell....

Point taken. The theory, innocent until guilty of one's own accord, does imply that.

therefore the atonement is worthless to save.......the atonement did NOT erase their sin.

No, the Atonement erased Adam's sin, thus 'innocent until guilty of one's own accord'.

 

[kyredneck]

If he took the sins of the world Away why do some men die IN their sins.....Did Jesus miss some sin when he took it away ?

John 8:24
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

...die in your sins....

​

HUH ?

You're reading something into the text that isn't there.

What the Bible says:
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8

What Forever Settled reads into it:
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall go to hell: whither I go, ye cannot come.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall go to hell: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall go to hell. Jn 8

 

[Forever Settled]

What the Bible says:
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn 8

What Forever Settled reads into it:
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall go to hell: whither I go, ye cannot come.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall go to hell: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall go to hell. Jn 8

You may not know this.....but if a man dies in his sins....he is headed to hell .

 

[kyredneck]

You may not know this.....but if a man dies in his sins....he is headed to hell .

Did not Moses and Aaron 'die in their sin' of unbelief in the wilderness? That entire wilderness generation (excluding Joshua and Caleb) perished in their sin of unbelief. The passages in Jn 8 are perfectly synonymous with:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

...or maybe you prefer to read into the text:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall go to hell Acts 3:23

 

[kyredneck]

The Prophet was using the language of a prophet in warning Israel of the impending destruction that was soon to come upon the nation if they rejected Him.

 

[kyredneck]

<---------------> duplicate post