I gave you a well reasoned and scriptural response and you responded with this? How about actually addressing it and not skirting it?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Babies in hell?
- Thread starter kyredneck
- Start date
- Status
@kyredneck
This is the third time I have ask these...
Will there literally be babies in the eternal state?
If yes, who will run the nursery?
Who will change the diapers?
Who will feed and burp them?
How can babies bow their knee and declare Jesus is Lord?
Will you kindly respond to them?
This is the third time I have ask these...
Will there literally be babies in the eternal state?
If yes, who will run the nursery?
Who will change the diapers?
Who will feed and burp them?
How can babies bow their knee and declare Jesus is Lord?
Will you kindly respond to them?
Now, about Adam's sin.
Wilt thou forgive that sin where I begun,
Which was my sin, though it were done before?
We didn't inherit Adam's sin. We committed it.
Sin isn't being passed from generation to generation. Death is passed. But even then, we're thinking of it wrong. Death isn't a something. Death is the absence of something, and that something is life.
Mutations are a good picture. Genetic mutations are always the result of information that was lost. So when we speak of a mutation being passed, we're really talking about something that isn't being passed, the lost information. Adam lost his life, and is unable to pass it to his children.
So when we talk about original sin, we're not talking about someone's sin that isn't our own. We were there, in the Garden, and we committed that sin. And life isn't passed to us, not only because we no longer possessed it, but because we are justly sentenced to death. And if you live long enough, the sin and rebellion that is bound in your heart will work itself out into the sight of others, and you will prove that you are the corrupt seed of a corrupt father.
God is no less righteous to bring that judgment upon you in infancy than He is to let you heap transgressions into old age.
Wilt thou forgive that sin where I begun,
Which was my sin, though it were done before?
—John Donne
When the scales fall from our eyes, we will understand that Adam's sin was our sin, because we were in Adam. Levi was reckoned to have paid tithes to Melchizedek, because He was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes. And, those of us who are in Christ, have not only done His righteous works and satisfied the Law, but have paid for our sins.
We didn't inherit Adam's sin. We committed it.
Sin isn't being passed from generation to generation. Death is passed. But even then, we're thinking of it wrong. Death isn't a something. Death is the absence of something, and that something is life.
Mutations are a good picture. Genetic mutations are always the result of information that was lost. So when we speak of a mutation being passed, we're really talking about something that isn't being passed, the lost information. Adam lost his life, and is unable to pass it to his children.
So when we talk about original sin, we're not talking about someone's sin that isn't our own. We were there, in the Garden, and we committed that sin. And life isn't passed to us, not only because we no longer possessed it, but because we are justly sentenced to death. And if you live long enough, the sin and rebellion that is bound in your heart will work itself out into the sight of others, and you will prove that you are the corrupt seed of a corrupt father.
God is no less righteous to bring that judgment upon you in infancy than He is to let you heap transgressions into old age.
All men dead in Adam by physical birth.
All men In Christ by SPIRITUAL birth.
Not All in Adam make it into Christ
..agree???
Looks plain in simple Kyred.
Born again appears in a couple of verses in jn3, and once I 1pet1...does it not count because it is only a couple of verses?
That is because not all are in the second group Kyred or all would be saved.
Unbelief is a sin that gets paid for ,it does not stand apart from the cross.
Two justification? Christ died once. He sacrified once. And that act is once for all.
Forever Settled
Active Member
If God created some vessels for destruction and elected others to salvation ........why does age matter ? Men make it an emotional subject.
Jesus Saves!
Active Member
When I was 10 years old, my grandfather passed away. An ol country preacher preached his funeral. At that funeral, the Lord spoke to me the first time. The law came, I stood before the Lord, and was declared quilty of sin. My cloke or covering was removed and my spiritual state with God was revealed. I believe I was fine until that day. I became aware that I was a sinner for the first time though I was born in sin. I could of Got saved that day if I would have listened to the Holy Ghost, but I didn't. That time and several others i failed to heed his call. I believe I was hell bound after that day. Many things I've forgotten in life, but I've never forgot when God was speaking to me. I personally believe the last time he called was the last opportunity I would have and I almost let it get by. It didn't seem to be the right time. The preacher hadn't even preached yet and wasn't given an altar call. But as Gods presence began to fade, I realized this could be my last chance. So my heart cried wait Lord I'm coming. I was singing with the choir. I dropped the song book and took a couple steps and fell in the arms of my Lord by faith. I felt that old heavy burden of sin roll away and I'd been set free.
Sheesh, I leave for a couple hours and come back and I have 12 alerts.
Again, if "through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation" came from the first Adam and 'all men' here means all mankind.....
What was it that all mankind received from the second Adam?
I read the passage as 'one act of righteousness' undoing the damage of 'the one trespass'..... for all mankind.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5
Again, if "through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation" came from the first Adam and 'all men' here means all mankind.....
What was it that all mankind received from the second Adam?
I read the passage as 'one act of righteousness' undoing the damage of 'the one trespass'..... for all mankind.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5
I don't know. You have a link? I'm interested.
Did the Atonement apply pre-cross?
unprofitable
Active Member
This is always an emotional topic. I can think of nothing more painful for a parent than the loss of a child. However i must vote yes.
I base my decision on the following verses:
Luke 14:28 says, "For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he hath sufficient to finish it."
Matt 16:18 says, "Upon this rock I will build my church (calling out and gathering together, the cost as members) and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."
Christ in Luke 14:28 is pointing to Matt 16:18. Christ had already counted the cost in the sense of predestination and election. The number of members necessary to complete the task of Mt 16:18 had already been determined before the foundation of the world. The number of the members of the body of Christ needed to insure that the gates of Hell would not interrupt nor destroy the perpetuity of His body, had already been determined.
Armenians, in their belief that God looked into the future and saw these things, attempt to make the Father a fortune teller. How could he look into the future if the future had not already been determined (counting the cost) and who would determine it but the Father?
Why? Colossians 1:16 says, "For by Him were all things created (counting the cost) that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, dominions, or principalities, or powers (counting the costs) all things were created (counted) by him and for him." This was to the intent that both the Father and the Son would be glorified along with their people, the church. And Ephesians 3:21 says, "Unto Him be glory in the church, by Christ Jesus through out all ages, world without end, amen." The church is given the charge of the edifying of, the building up of the body of Christ that the work/will of the Father might be accomplished in the raising up of that spiritual temple wherein we see Jer 21:7, 31:33, 32:38, Eze 11:20 accomplished, to name a few. It is the same charge also given to Cyrus in Ezra 1:3. I Cor 12:18 says, "But now HATH GOD set the members in the body, EVERYONE of them (WITHOUT Exception) as it has pleased Him." (counting the cost)
How can any of this apply to a child, either born or unborn? And since not, how can they be counted in the cost of building a tower as the body of Christ.
Rom 5:18 cannot be interpreted apart from 12 thru 19, showing the many as the ALL. During the time before Christ, the Gentiles could not participate in the priesthood. Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God also unto the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." The elect from the nations were now admitted to the priesthood. (I Pet 5-9). This is the intention of the 18th verse. The free gift of Christ is the resorting to the priesthood, members from every nation, kingdom, tongue, and people (the ALL)(Rev 5:9) Not every single man, for then it would mean that every human being would be saved but as in where there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are ALL (the many from every nation, kingdom, tongue, and people) one IN CHRIST.(in one body, the church) (Gal 3:28)
Likewise, infants cannot exercise faith. The verse that the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit is being applied/given to the church at Rome and all bodies of Christ, the OUR as a body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is given to the members of the body either present and future. Ephesians 3:10 says, "that it might be known by the CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God." How but by the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the revelator. The very elect will be guided into the body, even from the womb.
;
I base my decision on the following verses:
Luke 14:28 says, "For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he hath sufficient to finish it."
Matt 16:18 says, "Upon this rock I will build my church (calling out and gathering together, the cost as members) and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."
Christ in Luke 14:28 is pointing to Matt 16:18. Christ had already counted the cost in the sense of predestination and election. The number of members necessary to complete the task of Mt 16:18 had already been determined before the foundation of the world. The number of the members of the body of Christ needed to insure that the gates of Hell would not interrupt nor destroy the perpetuity of His body, had already been determined.
Armenians, in their belief that God looked into the future and saw these things, attempt to make the Father a fortune teller. How could he look into the future if the future had not already been determined (counting the cost) and who would determine it but the Father?
Why? Colossians 1:16 says, "For by Him were all things created (counting the cost) that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, dominions, or principalities, or powers (counting the costs) all things were created (counted) by him and for him." This was to the intent that both the Father and the Son would be glorified along with their people, the church. And Ephesians 3:21 says, "Unto Him be glory in the church, by Christ Jesus through out all ages, world without end, amen." The church is given the charge of the edifying of, the building up of the body of Christ that the work/will of the Father might be accomplished in the raising up of that spiritual temple wherein we see Jer 21:7, 31:33, 32:38, Eze 11:20 accomplished, to name a few. It is the same charge also given to Cyrus in Ezra 1:3. I Cor 12:18 says, "But now HATH GOD set the members in the body, EVERYONE of them (WITHOUT Exception) as it has pleased Him." (counting the cost)
How can any of this apply to a child, either born or unborn? And since not, how can they be counted in the cost of building a tower as the body of Christ.
Rom 5:18 cannot be interpreted apart from 12 thru 19, showing the many as the ALL. During the time before Christ, the Gentiles could not participate in the priesthood. Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God also unto the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." The elect from the nations were now admitted to the priesthood. (I Pet 5-9). This is the intention of the 18th verse. The free gift of Christ is the resorting to the priesthood, members from every nation, kingdom, tongue, and people (the ALL)(Rev 5:9) Not every single man, for then it would mean that every human being would be saved but as in where there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are ALL (the many from every nation, kingdom, tongue, and people) one IN CHRIST.(in one body, the church) (Gal 3:28)
Likewise, infants cannot exercise faith. The verse that the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit is being applied/given to the church at Rome and all bodies of Christ, the OUR as a body of Christ. The Holy Spirit is given to the members of the body either present and future. Ephesians 3:10 says, "that it might be known by the CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God." How but by the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the revelator. The very elect will be guided into the body, even from the womb.
;
I was curious, about your beliefs on verse 18. It seemed that you may have seen the gift functioning in the manner of Wesleyan prevenient grace. I thought it best to ask.
Sermon 85 - On Working Out Our Own Salvation - General Board of Global Ministries
It's rare that a question given in answer to a question actually answers the original question.
Thank you.
I understand what you are saying Kyred.
However the one act of righteousness is only extended to those who are described in Roman's 5:1...And all of the subsequent persons described as us. This does not extend to unjustified persons.
Forever Settled
Active Member
unprofitable
Active Member
Jeremiah 31:34, says "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them to the greatest, saith the Lord, For I will forgive their iniquities and I will remember their sin no more. This a prophesy of the transition from the old covenant to the new. How can this apply to unborn children? Eph 3:10 says," ...that it might be known by the CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God." Christ said Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal (salvation) they they (ALL) might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." These are those in the new covenant. The old covenant was types and shadows. The new covenant reveals the only true God in the face of Jesus Christ.. Romans 8:15 now tells us that by the righteousness of one the free gift came on ALL men unto justification of life. The ALL here are the same as the All in the new covenant, the ALL in Christ as in Gal 3:28. The free gift of the eternal salvation by knowledge (revealing) of the only true God and Jesus Christ as (the head of the church and the saviour of the body Eph 5:23) whom thou hast sent. Neither can this blessing of the knowledge by applies to unborn children.
Yes, all of us were judged by God as guilty in the fall of Adam, but He also chose to apply saving Grace of the Cross of Christ towards those such as babies and those mentally disabled, doing for them what they could not for themselves!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Forever Settled
Active Member
Well don’t leave me in ignorance post the verses so I can read up on this...thanks.
unprofitable
Active Member
Yeshua 1,
Doesn't your post saying the saving grace of Christ concerning babies and those with mentally disabled also apply to what Christ had to do for us? Were we not blind and deaf to the righteousness of God and His kingdom in the face of Christ? (Mt 6:33, Rom 10:3) Isaiah 61:1-3 is part of the prophesy of what Christ would do for his people and the rest were blinded. (Mt 13:16) Verse 11 is especially revealing in that Christ says, "...Because it is given unto you (those in Christ in the new covenant) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." As Forever Settled said, age becomes irrelevant. The work of the godhead is always in righteousness. Neither is judgment nor discernment based on an IQ test. We had to be GIVEN the mind of Christ (I Cor 2:16) The Father has decided to whom the mysteries are to be revealed (Eph 3:10,...that it might be know by the CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God.) The work of the godhead is always in righteousness.
I also found that the age of accountability teaching was inconsistent with the doctrines of grace, especially the doctrines of election and predestination. The teaching of the age of accountability is only consistent with an Armenian doctrine. My son, in his Armenian state, once told me, as all Armenian will, "I gave my live to Christ." No , he gave us His life and spirit. He didn't want ours. We had nothing to give or barter. As Abraham said to Isaac, God will provide... (Gen 22:8). To say that we only become guilty after we reach a certain level of understanding, denies both facts that we died in Adam AND had to be given (God will provide) the life of Christ, Eze 11:19, 36:26-27). The consistent repetition of the theme of I WILL especially in Jeremiah 50 shows the work of Christ in and for His people because of their disablitiy/inability to discern "the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent (Jn 17:3)
Certainly we were ALL hell bound because of our death in Adam and could only be restored in what Christ would do because of OUR disabiliy
Doesn't your post saying the saving grace of Christ concerning babies and those with mentally disabled also apply to what Christ had to do for us? Were we not blind and deaf to the righteousness of God and His kingdom in the face of Christ? (Mt 6:33, Rom 10:3) Isaiah 61:1-3 is part of the prophesy of what Christ would do for his people and the rest were blinded. (Mt 13:16) Verse 11 is especially revealing in that Christ says, "...Because it is given unto you (those in Christ in the new covenant) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." As Forever Settled said, age becomes irrelevant. The work of the godhead is always in righteousness. Neither is judgment nor discernment based on an IQ test. We had to be GIVEN the mind of Christ (I Cor 2:16) The Father has decided to whom the mysteries are to be revealed (Eph 3:10,...that it might be know by the CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God.) The work of the godhead is always in righteousness.
I also found that the age of accountability teaching was inconsistent with the doctrines of grace, especially the doctrines of election and predestination. The teaching of the age of accountability is only consistent with an Armenian doctrine. My son, in his Armenian state, once told me, as all Armenian will, "I gave my live to Christ." No , he gave us His life and spirit. He didn't want ours. We had nothing to give or barter. As Abraham said to Isaac, God will provide... (Gen 22:8). To say that we only become guilty after we reach a certain level of understanding, denies both facts that we died in Adam AND had to be given (God will provide) the life of Christ, Eze 11:19, 36:26-27). The consistent repetition of the theme of I WILL especially in Jeremiah 50 shows the work of Christ in and for His people because of their disablitiy/inability to discern "the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent (Jn 17:3)
Certainly we were ALL hell bound because of our death in Adam and could only be restored in what Christ would do because of OUR disabiliy
Last edited:
All men in Adam received condemnation through his act of disobedience. All mankind is in Adam, as he represented all mankind.
All men in the Christ received the free gift of justification through His act of obedience. The Christ represented His elect and all He did was, is, and will be, passed onto them.
That’s what Paul is saying. Then he also wrote Ephesians 1, with careful attention to vss 4-11.
- Status