Babies in Hell?

[Helen]

Thank you all. It is over. Well, almost. One smiling note. Chris is adopted. He got encephalitis AFTER we adopted him. Two things come to mind here

1. We didn't turn him back in as damaged goods and ask for another....LOL. He is ours and God knew all this would happen.

2. Isn't it neat his birth mom named him Christopher? "Christ-bearer"

Craig, you know I disagree strongly with you. Paul was using first person singular in Romans 7:7+ and was not talking about Israel in terms of himself. After all, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles! He used 'us' plenty of times, such as at the beginning of Ephesians and other places. But he used the first person singular all the way through from Romans 7:7 to the end of the chapter. In other words, he was using himself as an example, and that clearly shows that before the law comes into a personal life, the person is not yet spiritually dead, or separated from God.

Nor is anyone responsible for something that happened before he was born. That is the most ridiculous bit of theology I know of. We are affected by Adam's sin, but most certainly not responsible for the decision he himself made thousands of years ago. To say we share responsibility is to imply any one of us could have prevented him from sinning. Maybe YOU could have, but I was not around then and there is no way I could have.

I was born sick with sin, and it would later cause my spiritual death -- the same as Paul refers to in Romans 5 -- but I was not born dead spiritually. The fact that we all, who are not to be raptured, will die physically is what affects all, but obviously not all as babes and children or we here on BB would not be here!

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by billreber:
Helen, I agree with your ideas. Only God knows for sure, but I beleive infants and those who cannot understand sin are treated fairly by God. I look forward to meeting you and your son in heaven!

Bill [/QB]

This has been the point of the Calvinists that have said there is no explicit statement of Scripture as to the destiny of infants, and now, apparently, of those who cannot understand.

Helen, I am sorry this has gotten so personal. I brought in the story of my sister's daughter who died in the hospital and I would have probably been very offended if you had responded to me like Bro. Reuben did to you.

We all can agree on one thing. In regards to the destiny of infants we trust that they will be treated fairly by God. This has been my point all along.

I just don't like the fact that people are trying to make verses say things they don't because they have emotional involvement. I have emotional involvement too. I was there when my niece took her last breath. I was, at the time, unable to do the funeral. I didn't try to make up meanings to verses, but rather, pointed to the faithfulness and justice of God, who loves us.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
We all can agree on one thing. In regards to the destiny of infants we trust that they will be treated fairly by God. This has been my point all along.

Amen, this is key. Is God trustworthy? Will He not do right?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
Craig, you know I disagree strongly with you. Paul was using first person singular in Romans 7:7+ and was not talking about Israel in terms of himself. After all, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles! He used 'us' plenty of times, such as at the beginning of Ephesians and other places. But he used the first person singular all the way through from Romans 7:7 to the end of the chapter. In other words, he was using himself as an example, and that clearly shows that before the law comes into a personal life, the person is not yet spiritually dead, or separated from God.

Helen, I agree with you that Paul was referring to himself. However, I disagree with you that Paul was saying that he was not spiritually separated from God before the Law came to him. He is simply saying that he would not have known he was a sinner if the law had not given him the lines he couldn't cross.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

The law came in to reveal sin, not to create it. Paul is not saying he never coveted before the law came in. He is saying he didn't know it was sin. It was sin, but he didn't know it. He thought he was alive, but when the law came in, he realized he was dead.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

He says here the law did not become death. Sin (which was already producing death in him because it was in him already) produced more death through the law. Sin became exceedingly sinful. It did not start when the law came it, it got worse. That is his point in Romans 7. The law can't make you obey it, it only makes you more sinful because now you are a transgressor of the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Paul was very clear that it didn't matter whether the law came in or not, people would perish with the law or without it.

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned -- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Be very careful for verse 13. If you think it says that no one is guilty before God until the law comes in, then everyone who died before Moses came down off the mountain is covered by the blood of Christ and is in heaven. That is obviously not what it means. But verses 12-14 is saying that everyone is born into the sin of Adam. The evidence is that everyone, including babies, dies.

Notice I am not saying that babies go to hell. I do not believe that. But I also don't believe that the verses you have put forward prove that. Rather, you are interpreting them in a Pelagian fashion, which was deemed heretical by the church in the 4th century.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:

Craig, you know I disagree strongly with you. Paul was using first person singular in Romans 7:7+ and was not talking about Israel in terms of himself. After all, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles! He used 'us' plenty of times, such as at the beginning of Ephesians and other places. But he used the first person singular all the way through from Romans 7:7 to the end of the chapter. In other words, he was using himself as an example, and that clearly shows that before the law comes into a personal life, the person is not yet spiritually dead, or separated from God.

Paul was indeed the “Apostle to the Gentiles” but in his Epistle to the Romans he is writing to a church a large portion of which was Jewish, and very much of the epistle, including all of chapter 7, is directed specifically to those Jewish Christians. In verse 1 he explicitly states that he is speaking to those who know the Law,” and in verse 6 he explicitly writes, “we have been released from the Law.” The Gentiles were NEVER under the Law and could NOT, therefore, be released from it. The entire chapter has to do with the Law and the Jewish people under the Law. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gentiles.

Romans chapter 7 consists of two parts, each with its distinct theme and argument:

Part 1. The Jurisdiction of the Law

This part of chapter 7 is an elaboration and explanation of what Paul had written in verse 14 of the previous chapter: “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.”

1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The primary purpose of this part of chapter 7 is to establish that Jewish Christians are no longer under the Law because they “have been released from the Law, having died to that by which [they] were bound.” (v. 6)

Part 2. The Nature and Function of the Law

This part of chapter 7 deals with the question that arises from Paul’s words in verse 5 of this present chapter, “the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law….”

7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
The Conflict of Two Natures
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

(NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Nor is anyone responsible for something that happened before he was born. That is the most ridiculous bit of theology I know of. We are affected by Adam's sin, but most certainly not responsible for the decision he himself made thousands of years ago. To say we share responsibility is to imply any one of us could have prevented him from sinning. Maybe YOU could have, but I was not around then and there is no way I could have.

I was born sick with sin, and it would later cause my spiritual death -- the same as Paul refers to in Romans 5 -- but I was not born dead spiritually. The fact that we all, who are not to be raptured, will die physically is what affects all, but obviously not all as babes and children or we here on BB would not be here!

Helen, you are here calling the doctrine of original sin “the most ridiculous bit of theology I know of.” That comes dangerously close to heresy. Babies die, not because they are born with a disposition toward sin that would result in them sinning had they not died, but because they sinned in Adam. Paul specifically attributes all deaths prior to the giving of the Law to the participation in Adam’ sin by those who died. That may not seem reasonable to you, and it may not seem reasonable to some other people, but that is what Paul wrote.

Your precious son would never have been so sadly afflicted had it not been for Adam’s sin and the fact that your son and everyone else sinned in Adam. I do not believe that your son has ever sinned on his own, but someday, unless the second coming of Christ occurs first, your son is going to die, and he is going to die for only one reason, the very same reason why we are all going to die—he, like us, sinned in Adam.

 

[Helen]

I have bolded a few of the bits in what you quoted, Craig. I have also inserted some comments in italics:

7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Knowledge is required for a sin to be committed.

8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
If sin is dead apart from the law, then it cannot harm one. It may be there, but it is not capable of doing anything to hurt the person.

9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
He was alive. He gained knowledge of the law. He sinned in regard to that knowledge. He died. He is using first person singular. He is talking about himself.

10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
Again, it was the commandment, which he mentions above as needing knowledge of it, which caused his death -- and that because of his reaction to the commandment.

11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
A baby does not have the mentality to be deceived. One must be old enough to be the subject of deception in order to be killed by the law through one's volitional sin.

12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
This is speaking of an unsaved person. Paul has here put himself in the state of spiritual death in his narrative. No saved person is sold into bondage to sin. See Romans 6:18 -- "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
It is clear that the mind even of the sinful, unregenerate man can discern good and evil, just as Adam and Eve were able to AFTER the fall. But the unregenerate man is in this constant state of war within himself because the good he wants to do is the very good he is incapable of doing.

18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
If Paul were speaking as a saved person in this part of his narrative, he would not be saying this, for Christ indwells each saved person through the Holy Spirit, as he says in the second part of his narrative (when he puts himself in the saved position) in chapter 8. In addition, it is the Holy Spirit which gives us the power to do the good we know we want to do. The saved person is not incapable of doing the good he wants to do. In fact, the Holy Spirit helps him want to do the very good He empowers him to do.

19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
This is the war inside the unsaved person. It is the consciousness of this war which causes many to repent.

21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Again, we are freed from sin. We are "no longer slaves to sin" Romans 6:6-7

24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
No Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit calls himself 'a wretched man'! We are full of joy and peace and are victors in Christ. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit Himself and that is FAR from 'wretched'!

25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
This closes chapter 7, and his part of the narrtive which deals with spiritual death due to the law and resultant sin. The unsaved man who knows the law is torn in half internally because he cannot obey it. But for the Christian, the law is fulfilled and this war no longer exists. Which is exactly why Paul exclaims in the beginning of Chapter 8:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature, but according to the Spirit.

And THAT is the cry of victory of the saved person after the internal war described in chapter 7.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Helen wrote concerning Rom. 7:14,

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
This is speaking of an unsaved person. Paul has here put himself in the state of spiritual death in his narrative. No saved person is sold into bondage to sin. See Romans 6:18 -- "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Paul is writing here using the rhetorical “I” as he did in vv. 7-13. The man being described here and throughout the remainder of the chapter (with the exception of the short interjection in verse 25: Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!) is the devout Jew who loves and cherishes the Law of God more than life itself but who finds that the Law is incapable of saving him from the bonds of sin. This was not Paul’s personal experience as a Jew, however, and we know that from what he himself wrote of himself as a Jew:

If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (Phil. 3:4-6)

I do not have the time to comment of the rest of your notes regarding Roman 7, and I believe that the discerning readers of this thread will see for themselves that your interpretation needs some further adjustments.

 

[Helen]

Ok, call it the 'rhetorical I'. That does not matter. It is an individual who was not spiritually dead before he knew the law. That is the point.

I consider it Paul's own story as that devout Jew, but your interpretation is up to you.

 

[Brother Bob]

It doesn't say "sin revived and I realized I was already dead". It says "The commandments came, sin revived and I died". And those without the Law was those before the Commandments came or those who are children as Paul was at one time. Jeepers! You are rewriting the scriptures to fit your case.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Ok, call it the 'rhetorical I'. That does not matter. It is an individual who was not spiritually dead before he knew the law. That is the point.

Great! Wonderful! We have no need to spend a fortune sending missionaries to the heathen who don’t know the Ten Commandments because they are not spiritually dead and they are going to heaven without hearing the gospel!

 

[Helen]

I think you are ignoring what you want to ignore, aren't you, Craig? Read Romans 2 again...

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Helen, you are here calling the doctrine of original sin “the most ridiculous bit of theology I know of.” That comes dangerously close to heresy. Babies die, not because they are born with a disposition toward sin that would result in them sinning had they not died, but because they sinned in Adam. Paul specifically attributes all deaths prior to the giving of the Law to the participation in Adam’ sin by those who died. That may not seem reasonable to you, and it may not seem reasonable to some other people, but that is what Paul wrote.

your son is going to die, and he is going to die for only one reason, the very same reason why we are all going to die—he, like us, sinned in Adam.

[/QB]

We're born into a "body of sin", (Flesh) that is "appointed" to death, regardless of the souls condition of saved/lost.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But what about the "SECOND DEATH", death of the "SOUL", show me scripture where it (soul) is "Appointed" (predestinated) to die, if God not willing for any to perish it certainly isn't appointed.

If it's not appointed, then there's two options, No sin of it's own, or Jesus paying for it's sins, but either way, sinless,

but what is sin, "Transgressing the law", do babies "know" the law??

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law wasn't given to "condemn, but to save, distinguishing between "Good/Evil" that we may know the good and reject the evil.

Do babies know these "differences" enough to "transgress the law" and sin??

According to the law, "IF" it was never trangressed, a person would be Sinless and qualified to enter heaven, did you ever consider that??

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

The law has the power to save as well as condemn, providing it is never transgressed.

"WHAT" sin will a babies soul be charge with as having..knowingly... "transgress the law"??


Even though we have a "saved soul" inside a "sinful body", most can't separate a babies "body of sin" from it's "Soul".

We're actually two people, and "Inward man" (soul) and an "outward man", (Flesh)

the outward man is appointed to die, (perish) but for the inward man it is not "Appointed", (predestined) for any to perish.

 

[Brother Bob]

amen Me3Him

 

[saturneptune]

[ March 18, 2006, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Helen, you are here calling the doctrine of original sin “the most ridiculous bit of theology I know of.” That comes dangerously close to heresy. Babies die, not because they are born with a disposition toward sin that would result in them sinning had they not died, but because they sinned in Adam. Paul specifically attributes all deaths prior to the giving of the Law to the participation in Adam’ sin by those who died. That may not seem reasonable to you, and it may not seem reasonable to some other people, but that is what Paul wrote.

your son is going to die, and he is going to die for only one reason, the very same reason why we are all going to die—he, like us, sinned in Adam.

We're born into a "body of sin", (Flesh) that is "appointed" to death, regardless of the souls condition of saved/lost.

</font>[/QUOTE]“You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures.” The phrase “body of sin” occurs only once in the New Testament, and it has nothing at all to do with the “flesh.”

Rom. 6:6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

The Greek word translated “body” here is the Greek word σομα. The Greek word commonly translated “flesh” in the KJV and the NASB is σαρχ. These two Greek words are not related and express two VASTLY DIFFERENT concepts.

The rest of your post is further gibberish and does not merit a detailed reply.

 

[saturneptune]

You all do as you wish, but the more you respond to Craig, the more he responds ... [edited] Ignoring is the best solution.

[ March 18, 2006, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Craigbythesea]

[ March 18, 2006, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
We're born into a "body of sin", (Flesh) that is "appointed" to death, regardless of the souls condition of saved/lost.

I once got into a debate with some Presbyterians who asserted that Baptists were Gnostics at the core. I thought that was a ridiculous assertion. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
You all do as you wish, but the more you respond to Craig, the more he responds ... [edited] Ignoring is the best solution.

for the most part, agreed. Every once in awhile I yield to the urge to respond to him.

I think of "they will know we are Christians by our love" and wonder about some...

[ March 18, 2006, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]