Babies in Hell?

[Paul33]

It is not blasphemy.

The Arminian God is either incompentent or unloving. He desires that none perish, but people do perish, because he's not able to save them.

Or, he creates a universe where folks are given free will to rebel, he knows that they will, and he creates them anyway.

Accusations against God in either system can be leveled.

 

[Paul33]

MP and BB,

God has free will and sovereignty. He apparently decided to create a universe where man would have free will. But God can not not know what people would do if he created them.

Therefore our choices are known before we are even born, before the foundation of the world itself.

So God loves the world so much that he sends his Son to die for the sins of the world, even for those he knows will reject him. That's love. And I'm sticking to it.

God could have decided not to create a universe where people would be allowed to rebel. But he didn't. He could have decided to create a universe where people who rebel would be anihilated, but he didn't.

He created a universe where people have free will, make their own choice about resisting Christ or not resisting, and allows that choice to stand, some to eternal life, and others to eternal conscious punishment.

What think ye?

 

[Helen]

Paul, I'm not an Arminian.

 

[J.D.]

Paul, you're learning a lot here, just as I am. Helen said she is not an Arminian. What she means by that is that she does not believe a person can lose their salvation, as Wesleyan/Holiness Arminians do. But those that like to refer to themselves as "biblicists" do hold to the 4 other points of arminianism.

Now a person that holds to 4 of the 5 points of Calvinism is a calvinist as far as I'm concerned, and visa-versa.

 

[Helen]

JD, I am a Bible believing born again Christian. Period. My life is hid with Christ in God. It is not hid in some theological box.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
JD, I am a Bible believing born again Christian. Period. My life is hid with Christ in God. It is not hid in some theological box.

Both John Calvin and James Arminius thought that they were Bible-believing born-again Christians.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Paul33:
He created a universe where people have free will, make their own choice about resisting Christ or not resisting, and allows that choice to stand, some to eternal life, and others to eternal conscious punishment.

What think ye?

You would be more correct if you wrote: "God created a universe where Adam and Eve had free will." Once they sinned their will was no longer free but in bondage to sin. Since Adam and Eve were head of the race man has inherited that nature in bondage to sin.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by Helen:
JD, I am a Bible believing born again Christian. Period. My life is hid with Christ in God. It is not hid in some theological box.

That's fine but the title of the forum is Baptist THEOLOGY & Bible Study (emphasis mine), under the Baptist DEBATE Forms (Baptist Only)(emphasis in the original). Theological terminology and labels are important to the discourse. And personally, I don't understand this aversion so many people have to being "labeled" a somethingorother.

Not all calvinists believe exactly alike, but it doesn't bother me to be called a calvinist, or a monergist, etc., and if I'm accused of being something I'm not, such as being a infralapsarian, I'll be glad to express my views on those fine points to clarify.

 

[Brother Bob]

Acts, chapter 17

"26": And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

"27": That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

"28": For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

"29": Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

"30": And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

"31": Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men , in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Jeremiah, chapter 3

"6": The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

"7": And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

"8": And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce ; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

"9": And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

"10": And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

"11": And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

"12": Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel , saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Is this the "elect" or is it that Israel that was not Israel?

 

[OldRegular]

Brother Bob

Even in Israel, the Northern Kingdom, God had seven thousand of which he said: Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.[ 1 Kings 19:18]

 

[Brother Bob]

OldRegular:
Thanks and I know but still does not answer the question, the ones who backslid, were they the elect? I know there was a remmant of Israel and even so today there will be a remmant but were these that fell the "elect"?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
OldRegular:
Thanks and I know but still does not answer the question, the ones who backslid, were they the elect? I know there was a remmant of Israel and even so today there will be a remmant but were these that fell the "elect"?

I believe that Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vessel through which God would bring Jesus Christ into the world. Out of Israel God chose Judah and eventually David whose descendants would be that ultimate vessel. Within Israel there were always what I call Spiritual Israel, the Church in the Wilderness, those who were truly saved, the elect.

As for those referred to as backsliders I suppose it depends on what you mean by backsliders. I believe that Christians, or those of Spiritual Israel, did and do sin in a manner that grieves the Holy Spirit. King David, a man after God's own heart, is a perfect example of this; but I suppose no one doubts that he was one of the elect.

If by backslide you mean loose salvation then they were not the elect or Spiritual Israel. When God chooses and saves someone they can never fall away.

 

[Brother Bob]

OldRegular:
I certainly agree that those who come up out of the wilderness were the Church. I guess what I am getting at is that God gave the ones I speak of a Bill of Divorce, but then said return unto me. If they were the "elect" I understand why they would return but if they were not the "elect", return unto what?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
OldRegular:
I certainly agree that those who come up out of the wilderness were the Church. I guess what I am getting at is that God gave the ones I speak of a Bill of Divorce, but then said return unto me. If they were the "elect" I understand why they would return but if they were not the "elect", return unto what?

Well Paul wasn't the only one who wrote some things hard to understand.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul33:
He created a universe where people have free will, make their own choice about resisting Christ or not resisting, and allows that choice to stand, some to eternal life, and others to eternal conscious punishment.

What think ye?

You would be more correct if you wrote: "God created a universe where Adam and Eve had free will." Once they sinned their will was no longer free but in bondage to sin. Since Adam and Eve were head of the race man has inherited that nature in bondage to sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Why is it everyone accept the fact that Adam sins caused everyone to be sinners, but don't accept the fact the Jesus's death can covers every sins ever committed??

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now add the fact that God isn't willing for any to perish, and would have "ALL MEN" to be saved, and only appointed "ONE DEATH" to man,

leaves predestination without an explanation of why many die a second death.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul33:
He created a universe where people have free will, make their own choice about resisting Christ or not resisting, and allows that choice to stand, some to eternal life, and others to eternal conscious punishment.

What think ye?

You would be more correct if you wrote: "God created a universe where Adam and Eve had free will." Once they sinned their will was no longer free but in bondage to sin. Since Adam and Eve were head of the race man has inherited that nature in bondage to sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Why is it everyone accept the fact that Adam sins caused everyone to be sinners, but don't accept the fact the Jesus's death can covers every sins ever committed??

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now add the fact that God isn't willing for any to perish, and would have "ALL MEN" to be saved, and only appointed "ONE DEATH" to man,

leaves predestination without an explanation of why many die a second death. </font>[/QUOTE]Only if you are unlearned in Scripture!

 

[Helen]

Now add the fact that God isn't willing for any to perish, and would have "ALL MEN" to be saved, and only appointed "ONE DEATH" to man,

The one death spoken of in Hebrews is the physical death, after which there is no longer a time for decision. You die and are judged. This precludes reincarnation or any type of Mormon spiritual life in which you 'keep progressing.' God knew these beliefs did and would come and short-circuited them from the get-go.

Yes, Jesus paid for ALL sin on the cross. Not one insult to God will be left standing for all eternity. What we do with that gift is what will decide our eternal destiny, for it is belief which is a matter of heaven or hell, not sin.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Helen:
Now add the fact that God isn't willing for any to perish, and would have "ALL MEN" to be saved, and only appointed "ONE DEATH" to man,

The one death spoken of in Hebrews is the physical death, after which there is no longer a time for decision. You die and are judged. This precludes reincarnation or any type of Mormon spiritual life in which you 'keep progressing.' God knew these beliefs did and would come and short-circuited them from the get-go.

Yes, Jesus paid for ALL sin on the cross. Not one insult to God will be left standing for all eternity. What we do with that gift is what will decide our eternal destiny, for it is belief which is a matter of heaven or hell, not sin.

That's a "misprint", it should have said TWO death, one of the flesh, one of the soul, you know how "Inaccurate" the KJ is translated.

Or it could be they were just ignorant of man dying Twice.

 

[Helen]

Look at the context, please.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Heb. 9:27-28 KJV

How many times was Christ offered?
Was it physical?
IN THE SAME WAY -- therefore physically -- it is appointed to man to die once and then be judged.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Me4Him, your grandmother was entirely wrong. God does not use the means of murder to justify the ends of His Kingdom's population count!

You, (mankind) only sees the death of a child, God "SEES" another soul "in heaven".

God made Man from "DUST", (flesh) then told satan he would eat "DUST".

"FLESH" is "Satan's "bread of life" in the same sense "Jesus's body" is our "Bread of life".

This is why Satan, as a roaring lion, "DEVOURS" flesh.

The "FLESH" doesn't mean anything to God, like the earth, it is only "Temporal", but "SOULS" live "forever", and it's that "FOREVER" that God is concerned about. </font>[/QUOTE]Me4Him, our flesh does not give life to Satan, and the flesh does mean something to God since He created our bodies. I hope you know about the resurrection of our bodies (see 1 Cor 15).

Also, per your previous post, not all aborted babies have unsaved parents.