Back to our roots

"Soul Freedom is the historic affirmation of the inalienable right and responsibility of every person to deal with God without the imposition of creed, the interference of clergy, or the intervention of civil government."

What is the stand on the gospel going to other countries that are not of our religious beliefs?... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

 

Bro. Glen was going to answer one or two up. I hope I am understanding what the jist is, if not disregard.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What I would like to know is why does one person believe one way and another believe another way? IMO I believe that God is the one that gives us the believeability if not we can believe in anything and usually do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have hit on a key issue, that I tried to bring up on the old board, but IIRC, to which no one responded.

What is the elemental level of faith? How does one come to have that faith?

When I was a very young little fellow, I felt a terrible guilt, and wanted to be free of it. I felt that there was One who could do for me what I could not do for myself. That is it, I think, the elemental level of faith. It certainly didn't come from me, I think I was 6 years old, when I felt that way. I was certainly incapable of forming a complex theology for myself.

Some folks, IMO, never grow beyond that simple elemental faith, and that I believe is sufficient for salvation, but not sufficient for enjoyment of the fellowship of the brethern (and sisters) in this life.

I think that we grow in faith all our lives, or at least we should grow all our lives. I don't think anyone has all the answers, considered all the possibilities, so to me faith--what is believeable is a life-long process. And therein is the trouble. We are influenced by what the folks say we should be believe, what the preacher say we should be believe, how others treat one another and the like.

My wife was physically and verbally abused as a child by her father, and still has nightmares about it 18 years after he died. She has been very adversely affected by those events of 30-40 years ago. It causes her to doubt, and crave affection, and leaves her vunerable from every religious nut case who comes down the road. So, in conclusion, I believe that God does give us elemental faith, and a mind to use to study and consider. It is just harder for some folks than others.

In hope
Jeff

 

Hi again.

Mr. Kritzer, thanks for the kind words. I think you misunderstood me on the sprinkling issue. I have never done it, and don't think my church would, but I won't fall out with you for it.

Brother Robert, leave Uncle Jimmy Madison out of it. Just kidding, but he is my claim to an illustrious ancestry, being descended from his father's sister. And yes, if you go back far enough in the tree my folks were Anglicans.

Have you read Daniel Fristoe's History of the Ketocton Association, 1766-1808? I think there is some reference in that work to Madison and Jefferson both taking some ideas of goverment from local Baptist congregations.

 

You fellows are getting out of hand! I can't keep up. I've gone through and done a little cutting and pasting to try and hit the high points.

Clint Kritzer quote: "The Baptist movement began, most believe, by a pair of Englishmen named Thomas Helwys and John Smyth who fled their country to Holland pursuing religious liberty from James I who mandated allegiance to the Church of England..." I think that the position we take on Baptist origins will affect how we categorize what constitutes basic Baptist doctrine. For example, if one accepts the English Separatist origins theory, he will not have to factor in any groups previous to the early 1600's. If one accepts the Spiritual Kinship Anabaptist origins theory, he will have to consider certain Anabaptist 'peculiarities'. There is a definite correlation between Shurden's 'four fragile freedoms' and the radical views of religious freedom held by the Anabaptists. If one accepts some kind of 'John-Jordan-Jerusalem' theory, he will have to deal also with the dissenting sects from AD? to the 1500's. I personally accept a view that Baptists are heirs of the church that Jesus built, and that 'baptistic' principles have never been out of existence among God's people through the ages. Though sometimes the stream may have flowed underground, I believe it flowed nevertheless. I find it a little amusing that some who are willing to accept almost anyone as Baptists today will not allow that any of the dissenting sects of antiquity could possibly be 'baptistic'. Would that they would extend the same liberality toward these old dissenters who endured many hardships and privations, as they do to the modern-day plethora of Baptists!

"We seem in agreement that the sacraments have nothing to do with salvation, however, I would never dare to keep one seeking salvation from the rite of baptism, even if it is in the non-standard way..." I do not want Bro. Jeff to be indicted in the sprinkling matter. It was I who stated I would rather accept them on faith alone than to use the practice of sprinkling for baptism. I think here I would apply my thoughts on soul freedom. If a person wants to be sprinkled, there are many churches who are willing to sprinkle him/her/them. I personally think if a person is physically unable to be baptized God will accept their heart. '...a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalm 51:17'

"...want to hear more about this foot(feet)washing." Here is a little more - feetwashing was practiced by some churches in the American Baptist Association and also the Baptist Missionary Association. It slowly dwindled among them. The last 'confirmed case' (sounds like a disease) was in the late 1950's. One local association of the BMA carried it in their articles of faith into the mid 1960's, but none will admit of its practice at that late a date. Also add the Ellijay association to non-affiliated Georgia groups that observe the practice. Feetwashing crops up frequently among groups that try to emulate New Testament doctrine and practice, and Baptists certainly fit that criteria.

Jeff Weaver quote: "Brother Robert, leave Uncle Jimmy Madison out of it." Well! an Anglican ancestor in a Baptist house! At least have the decency not to admit it . Actually, I think highly of James Madison, at least as a political thinker; Don't really know much about his religion. "Have you read Daniel Fristoe's History of the Ketocton Association, 1766-1808? I think there is some reference in that work to Madison and Jefferson both taking some ideas of government from local Baptist congregations." Yes, I have read it (also Burkett's History of the Kehukee), but that was at least 20 years ago [when I was a baby, I'm only 43 now]. I do remember reading somewhere about Elder John Leland promising Madison the support of the Baptists in exchange for Madison's promise to support religious liberty in the Constitution. I have also read somewhere that Jefferson saw Baptist church governance as at least some of the democratic pattern for which he was looking.

Tyndale1946 quote: "I believe that God is the one that gives us the believability, if not we can believe in anything and usually do." If I understand you correctly, Bro. Glen, I certainly agree. This explains a lot of the widely divergent belief among men. 'This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He hath sent.' 'He will guide you into all truth.' We have to be careful, though, that we not get where we think we alone are right and God is guiding us, but not others. I love this quote from Charles Spurgeon: "It seems odd that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what He has revealed to others."

Finally, it would make an interesting discussion at some point, if we could read
The Baptist Identity : Four Fragile Freedoms by Walter B. Shurden, and discuss some of it online.

 

I remember reading a book on Elder Leland and I can't recall how instrumental or what effects he had on Alexander Hamilton of course that was many moons ago.

Notice I didn't reveal my age but I think I let it slip to Brother Jeff. I've always thought that the early government was founded on the precepts of the Word Of God.
Did our country start off as a Theocracy instead of a Democracy? I'm inquiring of you learned brethren and where would I go to find out.

The information I want to know they refuse to teach in school like Scientific Creationism vs Evolution. Just a comparision and we won't go there that's another subject on another post. What does the true history say about our beliefs in founding The United States Of America?... Just my thoughts...

"How sweet and how pleasant tis for brethren to dwell together in unity." If I could I would give all of you a hearty handshake and a big hug. God Bless You and Yours is my prayer. Brother Glen

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Hi folks.

I too am a bit behind in keeping up. The faster I go, the behinder I get.

Mr. Kritzer, if you want to know more about Primitive Baptists, there is an extensive thread on us under Denominational Discussions. Two web sites that would explain more about us are:

Primitive Baptist Web Station and the Primitive Baptist History Page

Bro. Glen about the founding of this country. I think that the founding fathers did establish this country with many Christian principles. However, they were very tolerant--probably a reaction to intolerance. Some like Jefferson were Theists, and some like Franklin were agnostic. All of this was no doubt a compromise to accomodate the Congrgationalists in New England, the Dutch Reformed Church in New York, the Quakers in Pennsylvania, Catholics in Maryland, Anglicans and Presbyterians in the South. Even with this there were various state laws that restricted the voting franchise to Christians in some states until the 1830s. (I'm thinking North Carolina here--but it has been a long time since I have researched the topic).

At any rate, enough for now. Hope everyone has a good day.

Jeff

 

Elder is used by us to refer to an ordained minister. Other terms we would use are bishop and pastor. We would not use the term reverend, nor terminology from educational institutions such as Dr., etc.

 

Hi folks,

I am gooing to have to drop out for a day ior two. I had a diabetic episode today, fell dowm and mangled my right hand, amd I don't type well with the left only.

But I will be reading, will be back when I can type better,
'
J,

 

I was listening to a radio program a couple of months back and the speaker was talking about to ministers during the Revolutionary War. He was speaking about two brothers who were ministers and one was warning the other if he didn't take up arms to defend his church he would lose it.

He told his brother I'm not worried this is a church and the British will respect us and leave us alone. The British did take over his church and threw him out. Then he took up arms with the other brother and fought.

The speaker also said this is where the Minute Men originated. The program was very interesting but I never was able to find out who the speaker was or where he got his information. What part did the clergy and the congregations play in the Revolutionary War? Where can I go to find out more about this? I find this topic especially interesting in these days when we are told to be Pacifist when surely there is no peace.
The only peace to be found is in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

 

Brother Jeff, I am sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you are better soon and will be back with us better than ever. I think everyone (all four of us) is enjoying this thread.

Bro. Glen, on the Baptists and the revolutionary war I do remember this - Baptists were very close to unanimous in favor of separation from England. One prominent Baptist minister who was not in favor of it was Morgan Edwards, who was the clerk of the Philadelphia Baptist Association. He was considered a Tory, something that was a hindrance to him the rest of his life. But his thinking seems to have been that there would not really be religious freedom in America; that some group like the Congregationalists of Massachusetts would be in charge; and that Baptists would suffer worse persecution under them than from the Church of England.

One common discussion about our country is about it being founded as a Christian nation. Some say yes; some say no. If you choose your quotes carefully, you can prove either case. I say yes and no, because of the diversity of our founders. Some Protestant Christians wanted a Christian state; Baptist Christians wanted a state that would not interfere with one's religion; and some deists and agnostics probably just wanted to loosen the general hold that Christianity had on the people.

A final thought - the Anabaptists were just as strong and consistent on the "four fragile freedoms" of Shurden; should we consider them Baptists? Most contemporary historians (including Shurden unless my memory serves me poorly) do not believe they were. BTW, here is another Baptist Heritage web site. It's not finished yet, but will be a nice one. The compilers of it are of the English Separatist origins theory family.

 

Gentleman,
A most interesting thread. I am really enjoying lurking here.
Would very much like to participate in a discussion of Dr. Shurdens book. Does that really apeal to ya'll?
Russell

Jeff,
Prayers for a speedy recovery!

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: rhoneycutt ]

 

Clint, et. al., here's a few links that may interest you:

A Critique of the English Separatist Descent Theory
A Welsh Succession of Primitive Baptist Faith and Practice

and from an old Baptist Board History thread: Excerpts from the Trail of Blood, which ended up discussing scholarship related to Baptist history research.

 

Brother Jeff I pray you have a speedy recovery and here is a song I'm sure you know: The Great Physician

The great Physician now is near,
The sympathizing Jesus;
He speaks the drooping heart to cheer,
Oh hear the voice of Jesus.

Sweetest note in seraph song,
Sweetest name on mortal tongue;
Sweetest carol ever sung,
Jesus, blessed Jesus.

For Clint and Robert and the rest of you brethren, looks like I have a lot of reading to do so I better start to bone up... Brother Glen

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]