Back to our roots

[rlvaughn]

Clint, for the meantime on Primitive Baptist discussion, why don't you check in the "Denominational Discussions" forum for the "Primitive baptist" thread. You might find it interesting.

If your church is of Separate Baptist descent, you may likely find feetwashing in its history. On the initials BYPU, I think it stands for Baptist Young People's (or persons) Union. I am not, and never have been, in the Southern Baptist Convention; but I'm pretty sure on that terminology.

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Thanks for the well wishes. I have sorta gotten the hang of one handed typing, just takes longer, so maybe I won't be so long winded.

Elder Elmer Skeen is pastor at Thornton Gap, has been for many years.

More later.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Hi folks:

Some rambling thoughts.

I am pretty sure there is a quote in Fristoe's history from a Baptist minister in Virginia to Madison about the establishment of religion. The Baptist being opposed to it. I could be wrong on the source, but have read such a thing. Can anyone help my memory out on this one?

Mr. Kritzer, I have several items of historical interest to Virginians on my personal web site. You might find something of interest. http://www.ls.net/~newriver/nrv.htm

There are some religious petitions from Virginia on the Library of Congress Web site. These aren't all Baptist, but there are some there.

Another good source of early writings (secular and religious) is the Making of America project. I don't have an URL handy, but it is located at the University of Michigan, so a Google search should turn it up. I can spend days on that site.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

In my original posting I had said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> In the other forums what may begin as a topic of faith or doctrine seems to dwindle to stalemates or worse still, turns into a totally unrelated topic than the original poster designed.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I commend this panel on their focus. However, back to the original list, I have found concurrences between Mr. Vaughn's list and my own on all but 3 points:
1)the importance of each INDIVIDUAL
*in fact we have discussed the individual's submission to the wills of the church's decisions, and the need to find new fellowship if irresolvable differences occur.
2)a GOD-CALLED CLERGY,
and 3)implementation of the GREAT COMMISSION.
I left out the high regard of Jesus Christ as Lord and Scripture as God's word. It appears we seem to be inagreement on this if one reads between the lines. At least that is the flavor I have of this post.
As for the implementation of the Great Commission, Mr. Weaver may be able to confirm this but I understand that the Primitive Baptist are non-evagelical and it is for this fact that Missionary Baptist split and started their own sect. IF this is so, sir, have your numbers declined? As I said before, I have heard nothing but good on the fervency and adherence to scripture that your branch follows.
Also on a personal note, I want you other fellows to know that Mr. Weaver struggled through his pain to type the answer to a Mr. Roger's Neighborhood trivia question that my wife posted on the youth forum. The answer Mr. Weaver gave her was "Henrietta Pussycat". Gentlemen, we are in the presence of a very versatile man. (Couldn't resist it, Jeff. Sorry.)

- Clint

 

[rlvaughn]

Clint, on the three points from your original list:

1. The importance of each individual - Most Baptists would agree that individuals are important. The main reason I left this off is that I think what is distinctive and common about this is covered under the ideas of religious freedom and soul liberty.
2. A God-called clergy - I certainly believe and agree with this point. I left it off my list because I am not sure of the historical significance of this point among Baptists, and how much the difference is over this issue between Baptists and other Christians. In my realm of experience, Baptist churches have held this to be a very important point.
3. Implementation of the Great Commission - I feel there are too many differences of opinion, even historically, over the Great Commission to place it as one of the more important things Baptists hold in common. There is variation concerning to whom the commission was given: apostles, preachers, Christians, the local church, etc. There are differences over its extent, application, methodology, etc., etc. I believe there is as much disagreement as agreement over this point.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Mr. Kritzer wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I commend this panel on their focus. However, back to the original list, I have found concurrences between Mr. Vaughn's list and my own on all but 3 points:
1)the importance of each INDIVIDUAL
*in fact we have discussed the individual's submission to the wills of the church's decisions, and the need to find new fellowship if irresolvable differences occur.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No argument from me on this one, or point #2 either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

2)a GOD-CALLED CLERGY,
and 3)implementation of the GREAT COMMISSION.
I left out the high regard of Jesus Christ as Lord and Scripture as God's word. It appears we seem to be inagreement on this if one reads between the lines. At least that is the flavor I have of this post.
As for the implementation of the Great Commission, Mr. Weaver may be able to confirm this but I understand that the Primitive Baptist are non-evagelical and it is for this fact that Missionary Baptist split and started their own sect. IF this is so, sir, have your numbers declined? As I said before, I have heard nothing but good on the fervency and adherence to scripture that your branch follows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one is always problematic for us. How to spread the gospel? We are usually described as anti-missionary, which isn't true. But the problem arose in the 1820s and 1830s over missionary societies, etc. Our problems with missionaries were this:

a. There were no missionary socities mentioned in scripture.
b. We read where Jesus told his disciples to "Go" not to "Send." And to us therein lies the problem, there haven't been enough of us to go into all the places where we should go or have gone. We still establish a new church here or there, but not as many as we should, and several congregations have consolidated in recent years.

Our numbers have declinded in places and increased in others. In 1906 there were 121,000 Primitive Baptists in the US. There are now about 75,000 in primarily white churches, which is a decline, and about 50,000 in primarily African-American congregations which is an increase, so over all about a wash. But we should be stronger than we are. Is the lack of traditional evagelism the cause --maybe, but I think there are other causes as well. Until about 10 years ago we fought to much with each other over this and that. We don't have anything special, such as camps, choirs, etc. to draw in those folks who like those things. We have very plain services, and often the meeting houses are very old and uncomfortable. I know the pews in our meeting house are horrible, so I take a lawn chair.

In some places we have a lot of folks who attend faithfully but who have never been baptized. Lots of our folks join the church to die. I know that probably sounds odd, but it is true in many cases.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Also on a personal note, I want you other fellows to know that Mr. Weaver struggled through his pain to type the answer to a Mr. Roger's Neighborhood trivia question that my wife posted on the youth forum. The answer Mr. Weaver gave her was "Henrietta Pussycat". Gentlemen, we are in the presence of a very versatile man. (Couldn't resist it, Jeff. Sorry.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am a jack of all trades and master of none. I rarely turn the TV from PBS, so one learns things. I am disabled, so in the afternoons when there is nothing else is on TV but talk shows or soaps, I watch some PBS kids shows, a rerun of Nature, and the Antiques Roadshow. I am also a book nut. The books in this house are worth more than the house is. I am book poor.

I do a few things to supplement the Social Security and pension, in the literary world. But a lot of days I don't feel like doing much. I was down in Washington today, at the National Archives doing some research when the bottom fell out of my blood sugar, and when that happens, down you go. Some kind fellow and lady found me on the street, and I remember saying diabetic, and passed completely out for a bit, not sure how long. When I came to she had put three pieces of candy in my mouth, and when the amblance came she left. I didn't get her name, wish I had. So, if she should ever pass this way, a big thank you. The ambulance guys gave me 10 units of fast insulin, and in 10 minutes I was fine, except for mangling my hand when I fell. Lots of folks malign the District of Columbia, but the ambulance folks wouldn't even take my medicare card or insurance card. They offered to take me to the hospital, but with all the Anthrax scares going on here, I thought they would be needed other places, so I took myself to the VA hospital, and they were, as always wonderful. So, despite a bad day on level, it was a very good day on another one. I know this doesn't belong here, but felt like saying it. Hope no one minds.

I have some diseases I will sell cheap.
Systemic lupus
hypertension
a variety of heart difficulties
diabetes
depression
rheumatoid arthritis.

What's your bid.??

Jeff.

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Greetings again, gentlemen.

First I would like to thank you all for the MANY links you have on this posting. I have not had time to follow but a few, but give me time and I will get there. Mr. Weaver, your webpage page is very impressive and extensive. I won't promise I'll EVER get through that!
As to the God-called clergy... is there any church in the Baptist faith that you may know of that does NOT have an ordination for men who were called before they began ministering? And if there is, back to Mr. Honeycutt's point, would we refrain from calling them Baptist? When the issue of church and state is brought up my response is immediate. On this issue, my gut tells me that something is wrong with the elder, a scriptural officer, not being led by God to his decision to minister.
As to the Great Commission, I appreciate Mr. Weaver's contribution above. Being raised in a sheltered environment of a rural town where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Southern Baptist, I never felt a NEED to define the final command of Christ in the book of Matthew. I will need meditation as much as research on this.
I must commend ALL of the contributor's to this post. I have learned a great deal, and as is always the case with research, I now have even more unanswered, unexplored questions. I am indebted to you, Mr. Vaughn, Mr. Weaver, Mr. Honeycutt, and Mr. Tyndale.
Finally, for this posting, I have really felt a brotherhood form here. This is exactly what I wanted when I registered for this forum and more than I expected in knowledge and discussion. That being said, Mr. Weaver, BROTHER Weaver, as far as I'm concerned, you are free to speak your mind on any issue you see fit in which I am involved in the discussion. "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20 (NIV)

God keep you until our next meeting

- Clint

 

[ellis]

The church I attend can trace its roots, though a direct line of founding congregations, back to the original Baptist church at Providence, RI. With just a few updates in the language (English obviously originally written as spoken in those days) our statement of faith is virtually unchanged. In that regard, we believe we are practicing our faith in the historic tradition of Baptists. With some topical re-arrangement in categories and points, what Walter Shurden has written about Baptist distinctives relates closely to what we have in our statement.

It is very interesting to me, as a relatively younger person, how some of the things that we look at as Baptist distinctives are very visible and obvious in the older members of the church. Priesthood of the Believer, and local church autonomy are subjects which can generate serious discussions among our older folks, and the free church in the free state, or the separation of church and state, can be fighting words.

I also find it interesting to note that there are others who have similar feelings with regard to the expression of ideas, the fact that we may find ourselves in total agreement with an idea, but resistant to the way some Baptist have elected to present the idea. Most of the people that I know who hold to traditional Baptist values are politically conservative, but are also highly resistant to efforts like the Christian Coalition, even though they may agree on many issues.

The particular aspect of what I see as traditionally Baptist, that I personally feel has kept me passionately Baptist, is the idea that everyone is welcome in the church. There is diversity that does not lead to heresy, but the recognition that as fellow believers on the same journey, none of us have "immaculate perception" when it comes to the Bible. Our concept of growing spiritually is a product of the discipleship ministry of the entire church. We respect our pastors and staff, but do not expect them to take responsibility for the entire doctrinal security of the church--an impossible task at any rate. When you are part of a community of faith, instead of an individual "lone ranger" Christian, you benefit from more than just your own reading and study of the Bible. Look in there, it's the Biblical way.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Hi folks

Some of you might be interested in some of the historical items found on this web site:
http://www.pbministries.org/index.html

One that was especially interesting was this one: http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Sermons&Tracts/sermon_54.htm

The gist of it is that Gill believed singing of Psalms was an ordinance of the church. Thoughts? Comments, Discission?

Till later
J. W.

 

[tyndale1946]

I would like to ask any of you brethren where I would go to find out information on the our early history of Primitive Baptist and Baptist of our order in general in the West.

When was the big migration? Where did most come from? What members were instrumental for there constitution in this area of the country? How did they get from your part of the country to our part of the country?

I know my dad came from Texas during WWII and stayed here and the church here was founded in 1939 by Elders D.A. Layne and Moore. Where did their people hail from Oklahoma, Arkansas, and did they imigrate during the dust bowl. During the land rush in I forget what year? I would appreciate it if any of you brethren have or could direct me where to find that information... Brother Glen

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Good evening all-
First, I would like to thank Ellis for coming down to our room. Last night I checked the announcemant page and read an eloquently written address on being Baptist by a member of this board whose ideas personified, I feel, this groups discussion. Here is a highlight from Ellis' soliloqy:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I am a Baptist because:
1. I attend a church that is Baptist in practice and theology, and follows historical and traditional Baptist practices and theology that it can trace back to the founding of the First Baptist Church in America.
2. There is no mediator between myself and God except Jesus Christ himself. Therefore, I stand competent and accountable for my own relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The result of this relationship is the regeneration of my own soul by the indwelling Holy Spirit. My soul is eternally regenerate, and nothing can change that.
3. I belong to an independent, autonomous body of Christ as called by the Holy Spirit and gathers together to fulfill the called, Biblical functions of the church. Our associations and cooperations with other bodies of Christ are at the leading of the Spirit, and of our own choosing. We recognize only the authority of Christ as led by the spirit and taught by the written Word of God, in the Bible.

That is what makes me a Baptist. I can believe that women are called to the ministry, and while that makes me a minority among Baptists, it still does not change the fact that I am Baptist. I can believe that the sky is purple with pink polka dots, and it still does not change the fact that I am Baptist. All 28 million or so (or however many of us there are in this country, and in the world) could take a vote and decide that I am not a Baptist and it would not change the fact that I am still a Baptist. I can believe that speaking in tongues is still a viable spiritual gift and I am still a Baptist. I can raise my hands and shout in church, and I am still Baptist. I can walk through the door of a Catholic church, worship in the Mass, pray, kneel and take communion, and I am still a Baptist.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Needless to say I invited this member to our forum. Having said that, I would like to know if Ellis is your first name, surname or pseudonym because in these discussions I think you will find I like to remain formal with the fellow members of this panel and I would like to address you as you wish. I hope you read the discussion prior to this page. You will find the gentlemen in here polite, knowledgable, tolerant and informed. I feel that they have gained my respect as instructors, as I am, admittedly, a novice student of these topics. Welcome to our discussion and I hope for your input.
First of all I have a few more corrections to my earlier corrections. Robert H. Pitt's address to the VA Assembly was in 1925, not the '50's. Secondly, I was appalled upon reading through the discussion that I did not cite credit to Fred Anderson, the executive director of the Virginia Baptist Historical Society for the first list on the first posting. I modified and paraphrased the list into my own vernacular, but the inspiration was his and I am sorry for any mis-leadings.
Gentlemen, I feel our discussion has yielded much. I am grateful for the many resources that have been added to these postings. I could stay busy for months even now. Yet I want to explore more and I think the subject is evolving into a new topic. If this forum was "Back to our roots" I think the next step should be "Standing upon the stump". (Clever? Goofy? Dumb? Maybe one of my journalistic companions can inform me.) I would like, if all concur, to start a new chapter in our discussion under a new posting heading. I am not sure of the protocol that has existed in these forums, but I feel this is a logical step. Please look for the new topic later this evening. To wrap up such an EXCELLENT discussion, I would like to ask Mr. Vaughn if he could make a final list from the contributions of this panel defining the Baptist distinctives we explored. Sir, I feel you are the most qualified to do this and I hope that you agree to oblige.
If we had been meeting eye to eye, I believe that I would ask Mr. Weaver to lead us in a benidictory prayer. I know, sir, that you write history texts, but you have the heart of a poet. Your testimonial on faith, to me, was one of the highpoints of this entire discussion.
I ask these things of you because I was the person who first posted. I had no idea that I would get the response I did. I called to you and you answered. Mr. Weaver, Mr. Vaughn, Mr. Tyndale, and Mr. Honeycutt, I have grown to admire and respect all of you who contributed. When I awoke the last few mornings my first act was to check for new postings. When there were none, I was disappointed. When there was a long void, I missed you.
Enough gushing. I am going to a new subject and will be seeking your help and enlightenment. If we are all reasonably satisfied that we have explored our common doctrine, I will now start a new post on our slight variances.

May God Bless each and every one of you.

- Clint

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Mr. Weaver, another thought. I use the NIV for my own personal study and it is the Bible I keep by the computer. I read in the Primitive Baptist thread that your faith adheres to King James. I am bringing out my KJV for any scripture I may cite in the future in respect of this. I, personally, LOVE the poetic nature of the King James, but my NIV is a study Bible with extensigve cross-referencing and is a very important tool for my scriptural study. I apologize for my ignorance and it is no loss to me to use the KJV for future referencing. - Clint

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother Clints post said:
If this forum was "Back to our roots" I think the next step should be "Standing upon the stump".

I'm going to use constructive argumentation to answer your question. To make the next forum "Standing upon the stump," is to imply the tree has been cut down and the stump and the roots are all that remain.

I believe the true baptist faith is planted on the banks of the river of God eternal love. This is a living tree that bears much fruit and is constantly growing in every generation. Other trees that claim they are the true one are those we see hewn down and the tree cast in the fire.

Our roots are deep and they branch out in the fertile soil of the Word and words of God... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Hi folks:

First, I want to thank Mr. Kritzer for the kind words, I don't know how to express how that made me feel.

Second, I think it may be time to close this thread and open up a variety of new ones to discuss some of the points made here, so as to be less confusing, we have covered a lot of ground in a short amount of space.

Bro. Glen, as to the origins of the Primitive Baptists in the west, I think that question might be best answered on the Primitive Baptist History forum http://www.primitivebaptist.org
I wish I had a good answer for you, but don't, but some over there probably would. You might interview some of your brethern out there to find some of the answers to these questions.

More later, time for medications.

Jeff

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Glen, I can in no way speak authoritatively on Baptists in the West; but I will say this from my experience - Most Baptists out that way that I have known, and heard of, had much connection back to Arkansas and Oklahoma.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

It's nice to see you gentlemen today. I started the new thread so that we may begin our new discussions on it. I went with an excerpt from Mr. Tyndale's last post for a title after several edittings. I like the new title. It sounds so old-timey! I am glad Mr. Weaver is an agreement to tying this one up. I have never had a resource like this before and I am very grateful. I have nothing new to add today but I would have felt odd if I had not come in to say hello to all of you. God bless and have a great day , fellows.

- Clint

 

[rlvaughn]

I have certainly enjoyed this thread of discussion. Here follows my attempt to fulfill your request. Clint Kritzer: "I would like to ask Mr. Vaughn if he could make a final list from the contributions of this panel defining the Baptist distinctives we explored."

You will notice that I have made the list shorter (numerically) than the ones either Clint or I posted, though longer than the four of Walter Shurden. This is in part due to combining several related beliefs under one number. I hope this fairly portrays the agreements we seemed to have reached through this discussion. I believe two other things we discussed, God-called ministry and the Great Commission, are both held in some fashion by most all Baptists, but, with such wide divergence of meaning, to hard to catergorize as common distinctives.

1. The centrality of Jesus Christ as Lord and the Bible as God's word; including the New Testament as the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice
2. A regenerated church membership
3. The local church is independent and autonomous
4. The concept of baptism of believers (by immersion) as opposed to baptism of infants
5. A non-sacramental understanding of the ordinances, especially baptism and the Lord's supper
6. The separation of church and state; that the state has no right to compel men in matters of conscience (and should, in fact, protect free religious exercise)
7. Soul Liberty - the right of the individual to interpret and believe Scripture as led by the Holy Spirit; and one's right to deal directly with God without human mediation

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Mr. Kritzer

It would seem I have one item left dangling in this thread, about the KJV. Some of our folks won't use anything else, and that is fine with me. I think most of our folks would say that the KJV is the preferred version. I personally have several versions, but almost exclusively use the KJV or a Greek New Testament. I never did learn Hebrew though.

As for the version, I think it is best left to each individual to decide which version is comprehensible to them. It isn't an issue with me personally.

As I know you have already discovered, there are lots of folks here who don't seem to be able to see the forest for the trees.

The versions issue is like trying to decide whether a particular tree in that forest is a white oak or a spanish oak. I am going to run and hide now.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

I didn't know where this might be best noticed, but there are some interesting and informative links on this page:
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/list.htm

 

[TXVET58]

One distinction about a particular strain of Baptist has a confusing odor to it: Recently, I was hooted down for suggesting that many Southern Baptists appear to be rascist white supremists, though they won't dare admit to it.
I said MANY, not ALL Southern Baptists.
I cited as examples the 1845 founding of the Southern Baptist Convention, the result of northern Baptists' objections to slavery. Southerns Baptist strongly supported the Confederacy and its dedication to slavery. Even into the mid-1900's, Southern Baptists preached the virtue of segregation and many SB's were strongly opposed to integration. I personally recall that as a child in Texas. Finally, who can forget what happened in Plains, Georgia when a black man tried to join Jimmy Carter's local Southern Baptist church? (I do understand Carter no longer attends that church).
Personally, I would not be trying to "return to my roots" if I were a Southern Baptist.
Quickly, somebody prove me wrong and I promise I will repent and apologize!!