Balaam showed No Free Will

[Dave G]

Faith is not a quantitative commodity, it is a decision to believe.

I agree.
But it's also, according to Scripture, something that all men do not have with respect towards Jesus Christ.

everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see,

Respectfully, I disagree, sir.
Scripture clearly is addressed, in some places, to those that "have ears to hear" and some people are even told that they are blessed because they have such.
For example:

" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]." ( Matthew 13:10-17 ).

I'm also reminded of John 8:47.

 

[Dave G]

Jesus explains why in the next verse - they have closed their eyes. If inability were the issue Jesus could easily have said they were born blind and deaf, but instead He emphasizes that their ears and hearts have grown dull and heavy, and they have closed their own eyes.

I agree with the underlined.
In fact, I see both "inability" and willful ignorance in this passage, not one or the other.

Men are blind and it takes the power of God to make them "see"... and Israel, during it's long history as the chosen nation of God, decided to close their eyes to Him and His words.
From my perspective, a clear example of human nature in all its deadness, except for a few here and there that had experienced God's grace and mercy.

Because the Bible clearly states that to express saving faith is not a work.

I agree.
It also says that to believe on Christ is a work of God ( John 6:29), not a work of men and that is it given to believers both to believe and to suffer for his sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

 

[Dave G]

Verses here and there should not stand out in conflict with our understanding of what other passages teach; when our understanding is correct every passage should be in harmony, like properly assembling something from a high-quality kit. If you end up with a side lacking dowel or screw holes in the right places, or a panel two inches too long to go where you're trying to put it, there has been an error somewhere in the previous assembly steps.

I agree, and to this I would add, "most wholeheartedly".

However, it seems that between the two of us, how we put together the pieces and harmonize them, is entirely different.
When you assemble the pieces, it appears that you're coming up with a co-operative effort on the part of men to acquire something that Scriptures tells us is strictly a gift ( Romans 6:23 );
When I put them together, I end up with an operative effort begun and finished by the Lord alone, have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace, and I didn't just come to His table with empty hands... I was brought to His table completely bankrupt, blind, deaf, poor and naked;
A destitute and willfully rebellious sinner in desperate need of His grace, which was a gift dropped into my lap when I wasn't even looking for it.


That said, I wish you well, sir...
and I hope I have not offended you in this exchange as it was never my intention to do so.

May God bless you with much wisdom, knowledge, grace and many good and perfect gifts...
For the Bible tells us that such things come down from the Lord ( James 1:17 ) and a man can have nothing except it be given to him from Heaven ( John 3:27 ).

 

[Tsalagi]

I agree with the underlined.
In fact, I see both "inability" and willful ignorance in this passage, not one or the other.

Men are blind and it takes the power of God to make them "see"... and Israel, during it's long history as the chosen nation of God, decided to close their eyes to Him and His words.
From my perspective, a clear example of human nature in all its deadness, except for a few here and there that had experienced God's grace and mercy.

I agree.
It also says that to believe on Christ is a work of God ( John 6:29), not a work of men and that is it given to believers both to believe and to suffer for his sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Thank you for your kind wishes, I appreciate your carefully considered thoughts. Had you thought about the statement that the hearts and ears of the people had "grown" heavy and dull, indicating that (like their eyes) they didn't start out that way? Just curious.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus didn't make an example out of "everyone" in John 3:14, He cited the israelites being led by Moses in the wilderness who were suffering the judgment of death for sin. Like the bronze serpent, Jesus being lifted up creates a decision point.

I did not ignore your assertion about self-conception. I answered it with three passages of Scripture that deal with the choice to be sons of God in this world by Christ and by the brethren among whom He is firstborn. The Bible does not talk about spiritual self-conception, it talks about receiving Him to become a son (John 1:12).





Faith is authored and finished by Jesus (not by humans), Hebrews 12:1-3.

Romans 8 mentions God's elect, it does not elaborate on God's "elective work" which .



Jesus is our example of enduring faith and obedience as believers; this passage is not talking about saving faith, unless you think running with endurance is required for salvation.[/QUOTE]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

Jesus is not the "example of enduring faith." Jesus is the author and finisher of...our faith.

Faith is God's gift to his chosen people. This gift is authored by Jesus and it is finished by Jesus when we come into His Kingdom.

Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
~ John 3:4-15

This passage expresses that just as you didn't choose your physical birth, so you don't choose your spiritual birth. God chooses.
Second, those who are blind to the spiritual truths of God cannot understand.
Third, "whoever believes" is not the same as "anyone can believe." Whoever believes are the ones whom God chooses to be born again. Whoever believes are those whom God chooses to "make alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9)

 

[AustinC]

Thanks Scarlett for pointing that out. I was reading through the thread hoping someone would.

While he was a man with sufficient (human or Satanic) wisdom to function as a prophet, he sinned by being a paid prophet as Peter & Jude point out, but it was not specifically for that he was condemned in Scripture.

He used his wisdom to see that, as Israel was a people under God's protection, if he could cause them to turn away from God, that protection would cease. Balak wanted to fight them, but Balaam showed that by making friends, joining with them in corrupt worship God would turn against Israel.

There is an enduring lesson there for us. Dare we join with other faiths or Christian sects that do not hold the true Gospel that calls for repentance & faith in Christ alone? Can we faithfully witness by joining with them or will we be in danger of being condemned with them?

Scarlett proved that Balaam was not capable of saying his own words. Even though Balaam tried to break free of God's ordained will, Balsam could not. His will did not have the capacity to break free of God's ordination.

 

[Quantrill]

Note that it doesn't say "madness of the prophet of God".

Also, what distinction do you make between a mad prophet and a false prophet?

I believe I mentioned that distinction in post #(27).

We are not told that Balaam gave any false prophecies and claimed they were from God. And all prophecies he gave were from God.

His original error was in seeking gain in the world through his use of his gift from God as a prophet. Thus he was a hireling prophet. Wanting to make a profit for being a prophet.

Because he desired the favor and gain of the world, this led him to his next and worse error. (Num. 31:15-17) He counseled Balak and the Moabites that by mixing Israel with the women of Moab he could defeat Israel. This was terrible advice, of course. But it was not a prophecy Balaam was claiming from God.

In other words, it is my opinion that Balaam was a hireling prophet. He was a true prophet gone bad. And because he desired the approval and advancement of the world, and counseled the enemies of God against Israel, so he died with the enemies of God by the hand of the people of God. (Josh 13:22)

Quantrill

 

[Sai]

Everyone deserves the snakes without a Redeemer.
Numbers shows repentance of those who believe, not those who don't believe.

John 3 shows that God enables belief in those whom he wills. The entire world will not believe. (You ignored the question of how a human self-concieves in physical birth as well as spiritual birth.)

Romans 8 is a blessed passage on God's elective work.

Faith is authored and finished by Jesus (not by humans), Hebrews 12:1-3.

Were they somehow saved for by worshiping the serpent on Moses’ staff?
You’re way off on this.


Blessings

 

[kyredneck]

Were they somehow saved for by worshiping the serpent on Moses’ staff?

Yes!:

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

They were saved from death!

 

[kyredneck]

I believe I mentioned that distinction in post #(27).

So, according to you, Balaam's in heaven?

 

[Scarlett O.]

God overrode. Those are your key words.
Thus all human will is in subjection under the will of God.
Not one molecule can go against the ordination of God.

Second, there are things, which no matter how hard man tries, no man has the capacity to will.
For example, I cannot will a sunny day when God has ordained clouds. I cannot will myself to fly by flapping my arms. I do not have the capacity, even though I have the imagination.

Thus, human will is never ultimately free. Balaam is a clear example of this truth.

Ah - you and I have different definitions of free will. You think I am including in man's free will the capacity to squash God's sovereignty and his divine will.

I don't believe that. God is sovereign over all. I DO believe that man's free will is included in God's sovereignty.

I define free will as the ability of human being to think, speak, act, and choose at their own discretion. I can eat a pizza for lunch or a salad - or both. That's fairly benign.

I can also, when presented with someone who is provoking me and/or others, freely choose to attack back verbally, call him/her an idiot, or walk away. Attacking back is not so benign

I can choose to sin or not - obey God or not. Christians are presented with these dilemmas every single day. Many fail.

God, of course, can do what he pleases and stop the effects of a sin - but this does NOT take away humanity's choice TO obey or not obey.

People are not robots. We are clay - molded in accordance with God's will. And God wills for us to obey. One can only obey if one has a choice to do so or not. If one is forced to obey - blindly - that is not obedience.

 

[Sai]

Yes!:

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

They were saved from death!

Was the death physical or the second death as in spiritual ?


Blessings

 

[AustinC]

Ah - you and I have different definitions of free will. You think I am including in man's free will the capacity to squash God's sovereignty and his divine will.

I don't believe that. God is sovereign over all. I DO believe that man's free will is included in God's sovereignty.

I define free will as the ability of human being to think, speak, act, and choose at their own discretion. I can eat a pizza for lunch or a salad - or both. That's fairly benign.

I can also, when presented with someone who is provoking me and/or others, freely choose to attack back verbally, call him/her an idiot, or walk away. Attacking back is not so benign

I can choose to sin or not - obey God or not. Christians are presented with these dilemmas every single day. Many fail.

God, of course, can do what he pleases and stop the effects of a sin - but this does NOT take away humanity's choice TO obey or not obey.

People are not robots. We are clay - molded in accordance with God's will. And God wills for us to obey. One can only obey if one has a choice to do so or not. If one is forced to obey - blindly - that is not obedience.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree that humans are given capacity to act and speak within a framework. It, within that framework, appears as though it were free will, but it is confined within the ordained will of God. An illustration might be when you place a fence in your yard and allow your pet access, without a leash, in your yard. The dog can wander freely within that fenced in area, but they aren't actually free and they cannot exercise any will outside of the confines they are given.

Therefore, I do not believe actual free will exists. But, within the confines God has decreed, He gives us capacity to make choices.

In the case of Balaam, Balaam came to a confine, which God would not allow him to climb out. God stopped Balaam in his tracks and said, "No". Balaam's capacity to freely will himself to curse Israel was not allowed by God and God's will stopped Balaam.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

"Ah - you and I have different definitions of free will. You think I am including in man's free will the capacity to squash God's sovereignty and his divine will.

I don't believe that. God is sovereign over all. I DO believe that man's free will is included in God's sovereignty.

I define free will as the ability of human being to think, speak, act, and choose at their own discretion. I can eat a pizza for lunch or a salad - or both. That's fairly benign.

I can also, when presented with someone who is provoking me and/or others, freely choose to attack back verbally, call him/her an idiot, or walk away. Attacking back is not so benign

I can choose to sin or not - obey God or not. Christians are presented with these dilemmas every single day. Many fail.

God, of course, can do what he pleases and stop the effects of a sin - but this does NOT take away humanity's choice TO obey or not obey.

People are not robots. We are clay - molded in accordance with God's will. And God wills for us to obey. One can only obey if one has a choice to do so or not. If one is forced to obey - blindly - that is not obedience."

Many of the actions you include in your view of "free will" have dire consequences. You can not defy God's revealed will and be in fellowship with Him - therefore you/we pay a price for exercising our will - which is not free.

[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

Martin Luther:
Full text of "Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525""

Excerpts from the above document

"An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie"

"The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature."

"Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair"

"Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin"

"Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God."

"Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace."

"If the just man lives by faith, he that hath not faith is not just; and, if not just, he is a sinner. If whatsoever be not of faith is sin, whatever is done by mere Freewill is sin ; because Freewill has nothing to do with faith, but is by the supposition perfectly distinct from it : neither has faith any thing to do with Freewill, but has another origin. Whatsoever it doth therefore, not being of faith, is sin. So that Freewill is only sin."

The Spurgeon Library | Free-Will – A Slave

Free-Will - A Slave

By Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Dec 2, 1855
Scripture: John 5:40

The first created being to impose his will (free or not) was Lucifer, Satan, the Devil. For professing Christians to credit this lie of Satan to God is appalling..[/QUOTE]

 

[Scarlett O.]

Many of the actions you include in your view of "free will" have dire consequences. You can not defy God's revealed will and be in fellowship with Him - therefore you/we pay a price for exercising our will - which is not free.

[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

I am aware that the result of MOST choices that mankind makes are dire consequences.

We choose to disobey God and we pay a price - sometimes a heavy price.

That does not take away the choice a person has to disobey or not.

 

[Tsalagi]

I am not sure what you are getting at. However, if you doubt the Sovereign ordination of God, I suggest reading the book of Job where God ordains that Job can lose everything but his life when He prods Satan by proclaiming the uprightness of Job.
Do you question a covenant between God and Abraham? Do you question the choice of God regarding His sheep and their hearing His voice? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

You made nine separate declarations in your post, none of which I find in Scripture; hence the request for references.

I have studied and taught all forty-two chapters of Job. It is not about God ordaining salvation.

 

[Tsalagi]

Where does God offer us a choice of a sunny day or far worse than cloudy one?
Where is that "Let's Make A Deal" offer displayed?

There is no such thing as a deal when one side has nothing to offer. Man is confronted with a simple choice between God's grace and God's judgment. It's not a game show.

 

[Tsalagi]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
~ Hebrews 12:2

Jesus is not the "example of enduring faith." Jesus is the author and finisher of...our faith.

Faith is God's gift to his chosen people. This gift is authored by Jesus and it is finished by Jesus when we come into His Kingdom.

Scripture does not teach that saving faith is a gift. Jesus is (literally translated) the "founder and perfecter of faith." The word "our" is not in the text.

~ John 3:4-15

This passage expresses that just as you didn't choose your physical birth, so you don't choose your spiritual birth. God chooses.
Second, those who are blind to the spiritual truths of God cannot understand.
Third, "whoever believes" is not the same as "anyone can believe." Whoever believes are the ones whom God chooses to be born again. Whoever believes are those whom God chooses to "make alive with Christ." (Read Ephesians 2:1-9)

On the contrary, John 3:11 refers to receiving God's witness and testimony; John 3:12 and 15 refer to believing that witness. Your concept of "the ones whom God chooses to be born again" is nowhere to be found in that context.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I am aware that the result of MOST choices that mankind makes are dire consequences.

We choose to disobey God and we pay a price - sometimes a heavy price.

That does not take away the choice a person has to disobey or not.

Why would a born-again child of God want to exercise their ability to disobey their Father? My spiritual struggle is to continually be obedient to the will of God and subdue my will.

[Phl 2:5 KJV] 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

God chastises His children. I recommend avoiding His chastisement by confessing our sins.

[Heb 12:8 KJV] 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Scripture does not teach that saving faith is a gift. Jesus is (literally translated) the "founder and perfecter of faith." The word "our" is not in the text.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: