Balaam showed No Free Will

[AustinC]

You made nine separate declarations in your post, none of which I find in Scripture; hence the request for references.

I have studied and taught all forty-two chapters of Job. It is not about God ordaining salvation.

Read the entire Bible. It won't hurt you. [emoji57]
Job is about God's Sovereignty in all things. Either God ordains or He doesn't. Job shows us that God ordains even the evil that comes upon us.
You might care to listen to others on the book of Job. Ligonier Ministries has an excellent teaching series. Also, Sovereign Grace in Louisville has a great series on Job.

 

[AustinC]

There is no such thing as a deal when one side has nothing to offer. Man is confronted with a simple choice between God's grace and God's judgment. It's not a game show.

Yet, you teach a "Let's Make A Deal" means of salvation. You keep insisting man must choose. But, behind which curtain should man choose in order to pick the correct Redeemer?

So, you teach a game show version of salvation where the contestant picks the Redeemer or... doesn't pick the Redeemer.

If they pick correctly...then all hail the correct pick, which God is now obligated to graciously agree to.

 

[AustinC]

Scripture does not teach that saving faith is a gift. Jesus is (literally translated) the "founder and perfecter of faith." The word "our" is not in the text.



On the contrary, John 3:11 refers to receiving God's witness and testimony; John 3:12 and 15 refer to believing that witness. Your concept of "the ones whom God chooses to be born again" is nowhere to be found in that context.

We disagree.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that faith is a gift from God. Hebrews 12:2-3 is clear that Jesus is the author and finisher of that faith.

Regarding John 3, you refuse to grasp the context of Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus and thus understand that only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe.

 

[Tsalagi]

I agree, and to this I would add, "most wholeheartedly".

However, it seems that between the two of us, how we put together the pieces and harmonize them, is entirely different.
When you assemble the pieces, it appears that you're coming up with a co-operative effort on the part of men to acquire something that Scriptures tells us is strictly a gift ( Romans 6:23 );
When I put them together, I end up with an operative effort begun and finished by the Lord alone, have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace, and I didn't just come to His table with empty hands... I was brought to His table completely bankrupt, blind, deaf, poor and naked;
A destitute and willfully rebellious sinner in desperate need of His grace, which was a gift dropped into my lap when I wasn't even looking for it.

I will simply observe that this view strains the natural meaning of Romans 3:21-26. Why does Paul not simply express salvation in the terms you give above? He says that the gift is "unto all and upon all them that believe" rather than "unto all and upon all them that God chooses." You say my view appears to represent a cooperative effort on the part of men to acquire salvation, which requires the basic assumption that saving faith represents works. But Paul says faith is NOT works, right? Faith is not effort, it is choice. A rough analogy: a man with severe pain in his side is told he has appendicitis, and that without an immediate appendectomy he will die; if he believes the diagnosis and allows a surgeon to remove the infected organ, is it accurate to characterize his deliverance from death as a "cooperative effort"? Extending the example a bit, what would be thought of that surgeon walking through a hospital with ten similarly afflicted patients and choosing to operate on only two of them? I confess I have great difficulty reconciling such a view with the compassion of Christ revealed in the Word.

Matthew 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick...

Matthew 14:14 And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.

Matthew 19:2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

Matthew 21:14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.

Mark 6:56 Wherever He entered, into villages, cities, or the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged Him that they might just touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched Him were made well.

Mark 3:10 For He healed many, so that as many as had afflictions pressed about Him to touch Him.

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Luke 6:19 And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.

Luke 5:17 Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

Luke 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.

Luke 9:11 But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.

 

[Tsalagi]

Yet, you teach a "Let's Make A Deal" means of salvation. You keep insisting man must choose. But, behind which curtain should man choose in order to pick the correct Redeemer?

He chooses the Redeemer revealed by the convicting power of God's Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11).

So, you teach a game show version of salvation where the contestant picks the Redeemer or... doesn't pick the Redeemer.

If they pick correctly...then all hail the correct pick, which God is now obligated to graciously agree to.

Read Deuteronomy 28 and see if your uninspired caricature holds up in the light of Scripture.

 

[Tsalagi]

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

In Ephesians 2:8 the noun for "faith" (πίστις) is feminine, while the demonstrative pronoun "this" (τοῦτο) and the noun "gift" (δῶρον) are both neuter gender; so that which is not of ourselves but is a gift is not faith, otherwise the latter two words would have been feminine in form. God's entire provision of salvation by grace through faith is the gift.

 

[Tsalagi]

Read the entire Bible. It won't hurt you. [emoji57]
Job is about God's Sovereignty in all things. Either God ordains or He doesn't. Job shows us that God ordains even the evil that comes upon us.
You might care to listen to others on the book of Job. Ligonier Ministries has an excellent teaching series. Also, Sovereign Grace in Louisville has a great series on Job.

So that's a "no" on providing any actual Scripture for your nine contentions. Vaguely citing the entire Bible is less than persuasive, sorry.

 

[Tsalagi]

We disagree.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that faith is a gift from God. Hebrews 12:2-3 is clear that Jesus is the author and finisher of that faith.

Regarding John 3, you refuse to grasp the context of Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus and thus understand that only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe.

As I said in another reply above, your understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not comport with the text. Hebrews 12:2-3 is not talking about saving faith, it is talking about Christ's example as an encouragement for us to live by faith after salvation - unless you think laying aside every weight and sin, and running with patience is required for salvation.

 

[Tsalagi]

Regarding John 3, you refuse to grasp the context of Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus and thus understand that only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe.

I encourage you to observe the details in this passage a bit more closely. Jesus said "born of the Spirit" - not born of Himself. To say "only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe" is reading your theology into John 3 instead of deriving understanding from it.

For me to "refuse to grasp" your idea from this context it would first have to be present; as I said before, it quite clearly isn't there.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Why would a born-again child of God want to exercise their ability to disobey their Father? My spiritual struggle is to continually be obedient to the will of God and subdue my will.

[Phl 2:5 KJV] 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

God chastises His children. I recommend avoiding His chastisement by confessing our sins.

[Heb 12:8 KJV] 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Do you believe that Christians sin? They shouldn't, but they do.

And the devil does NOT make them do it.

 

[AustinC]

So that's a "no" on providing any actual Scripture for your nine contentions. Vaguely citing the entire Bible is less than persuasive, sorry.

As I said in another reply above, your understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not comport with the text. Hebrews 12:2-3 is not talking about saving faith, it is talking about Christ's example as an encouragement for us to live by faith after salvation - unless you think laying aside every weight and sin, and running with patience is required for salvation.

I encourage you to observe the details in this passage a bit more closely. Jesus said "born of the Spirit" - not born of Himself. To say "only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe" is reading your theology into John 3 instead of deriving understanding from it.

For me to "refuse to grasp" your idea from this context it would first have to be present; as I said before, it quite clearly isn't there.

We disagree. It seems you disregard context.

 

[Tsalagi]

We disagree. It seems you disregard context.

Far from it; I am asking you to point out this alleged context. Why won't you document your nine claims from the Bible - are you having a problem finding scriptural support for these beliefs? Nor do you seem able to enlighten me on where in the context of John 3 it says or even implies that "only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe."

Lack of scriptural authority for these notions should be of concern to any genuine seeker of truth.

 

[MB]

Far from it; I am asking you to point out this alleged context. Why won't you document your nine claims from the Bible - are you having a problem finding scriptural support for these beliefs? Nor do you seem able to enlighten me on where in the context of John 3 it says or even implies that "only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe."

Lack of scriptural authority for these notions should be of concern to any genuine seeker of truth.

It seems he wants us to believe him instead of scripture.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

Was the death physical or the second death as in spiritual ?


Blessings

Egad, what a stupid question.....we're talking snake bite in the wilderness here, not the fall of man in Eden:

6 And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7 And the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee; pray unto Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

 

[AustinC]

Far from it; I am asking you to point out this alleged context. Why won't you document your nine claims from the Bible - are you having a problem finding scriptural support for these beliefs? Nor do you seem able to enlighten me on where in the context of John 3 it says or even implies that "only those whom Jesus causes to be born again will believe."

Lack of scriptural authority for these notions should be of concern to any genuine seeker of truth.

Sigh...
I pointed it out. I shared passages of scripture.
Tsalagi, at this point you seem to be rejecting the context of the text. I suggest you actually read the entire Bible and when you are done we can have a conversation regarding this topic.

 

[Tsalagi]

Sigh...
I pointed it out. I shared passages of scripture.
Tsalagi, at this point you seem to be rejecting the context of the text. I suggest you actually read the entire Bible and when you are done we can have a conversation regarding this topic.

I have read the entire Bible many times, thank you, and I am more than ready to have a conversation with anyone who backs up their contentions with Scripture instead of making vague allusions to "context."

If you can't document your nine claims from the Word of God, where are you getting them - are they merely traditions of men?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Do you believe that Christians sin?

Yes.
[1Jo 1:9 KJV] 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[AustinC]

I have read the entire Bible many times, thank you, and I am more than ready to have a conversation with anyone who backs up their contentions with Scripture instead of making vague allusions to "context."

If you can't document your nine claims from the Word of God, where are you getting them - are they merely traditions of men?

I backed up with scripture. You make an unsubstantiated claim and want me to back up your claims.

Second, I suggest you go back and read the Bible again since you're still preaching works salvation.

 

[Tsalagi]

I backed up with scripture. You make an unsubstantiated claim and want me to back up your claims.

No, you didn't. Unsubstantiated claims - that's you, my friend. You made nine bold "doctrinal" statements supported by zero Scripture references - and you still have not offered a single passage for any of them despite repeated requests to do so.

Second, I suggest you go back and read the Bible again since you're still preaching works salvation.

When I talk about being saved by grace through faith and you call it "works salvation," you are directly contradicting the Scriptures. The Bible says faith is not works. Your argument is with the apostle Paul, not me.

 

[AustinC]

No, you didn't. Unsubstantiated claims - that's you, my friend. You made nine bold "doctrinal" statements supported by zero Scripture references - and you still have not offered a single passage for any of them despite repeated requests to do so.



When I talk about being saved by grace through faith and you call it "works salvation," you are directly contradicting the Scriptures. The Bible says faith is not works. Your argument is with the apostle Paul, not me.

You are talking about salvation by picking the right curtain. That is not salvation by grace. That is human choice. That is not God's grace.
Despite a vast number of passages that tell us God chooses His sheep from their dead in trespasses and sins and makes them alive with Christ, you still demand that humans are the cause agent of their salvation.
Now, show us scripture where human free will is the cause of salvation.