Bankruptcy

[saturneptune]

I am one of those who believes that a type of bankruptcy is sin. The one where you halt your debt with the intent to pay it off I don't believe is. The one where you liquefy all assets to pay off what you can and then drop the rest, I believe is sin. My personal belief is that, regardless of the circumstances that brought you there, it is stealing.

My wife and I contemplated bankruptcy at one point. But she got a job and I took a second job (until i joined the military) and we paid off our debt in about 6 years. We went without a lot of things during that time.

Someone provided a service or goods and deserves to get paid. If they aren't, then they are stolen from.

I do not judge those who go into bankruptcy, any more than I judge a single mother. Sin is sin, but it is in the past and we need to move forward.

Baloney. Your opinion of Scripture does not make something a sin or not a sin. Your opinion is just what you said, your personal belief. Bankruptcy is a tool in law, and nothing wrong with using it unless it is a deliberately planned evasion of payment. Most people do not do that. What amazes me is that you take chapters of the bankruptcy code and divide them between sin and no sin. Say, what about the subchapters and paragraphs?

You are right about one thing, you do not judge me, or others. If a sin is truly a sin, one does not just move forward. One learns the lesson then moves forward. Oh, and tell Dave Ramsey I said hi.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Baloney. Your opinion of Scripture does not make something a sin or not a sin. Your opinion is just what you said, your personal belief. Bankruptcy is a tool in law, and nothing wrong with using it unless it is a deliberately planned evasion of payment. Most people do not do that. What amazes me is that you take chapters of the bankruptcy code and divide them between sin and no sin. Say, what about the subchapters and paragraphs?

You are right about one thing, you do not judge me, or others. If a sin is truly a sin, one does not just move forward. One learns the lesson then moves forward. Oh, and tell Dave Ramsey I said hi.

First off, I have no clue who Dave Ramsey is. So, I guess I won't be telling him hi for you.

Secondly, I have attacked no one on here, or spoken negatively about anyone. I have answered the OP. Yet I am greeted with hostility from you.

Not sure why you're amazed. In one scenario, you are paying people back. In the other, you aren't.

Let's look at this logically. Someone gets hurt. They owe a doctor. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay a doctor. They've stolen from that doctor. It doesn't matter if it was their fault, or whether the doctor can take the hit, or anything. At its core, they were given a service and then didn't pay. Preconceived or not.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C. If not paying for a good or service is stealing and bankruptcy is not paying for a good or service, bankruptcy is stealing. Stealing is sin, right?

Again, I am not judgmental about it at all. But it is what it is.

 

[saturneptune]

First off, I have no clue who Dave Ramsey is. So, I guess I won't be telling him hi for you.

Secondly, I have attacked no one on here, or spoken negatively about anyone. I have answered the OP. Yet I am greeted with hostility from you.

Not sure why you're amazed. In one scenario, you are paying people back. In the other, you aren't.

Let's look at this logically. Someone gets hurt. They owe a doctor. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay a doctor. They've stolen from that doctor. It doesn't matter if it was their fault, or whether the doctor can take the hit, or anything. At its core, they were given a service and then didn't pay. Preconceived or not.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C. If not paying for a good or service is stealing and bankruptcy is not paying for a good or service, bankruptcy is stealing. Stealing is sin, right?

Again, I am not judgmental about it at all. But it is what it is.

Yes, very good, you win the good conduct medal, ding, ding, ding, stealing is a sin. Your problem is, life and a relationship with the Lord is not a mathematical equation. In your senario, it is a fact that the person that claimed bankruptcy did not pay the doctor. It is not a fact that not paying the doctor is a sin or stealing, as this is a procedure provided under both federal and state law. Where you err is equating not paying the doctor with theft and sin. If I got services from the doctor, and did not pay him, that is sin. If I go through the laws of the land because I have no ability to pay him, that is not a sin.

So, do you consider charity given by a local church to a needy person a sin since they are receiving some type of service they did not pay for? If someone is cold and hungry, as the book of James talks about, do you say "God bless you" and leave them cold and hungry because it is sin not to provide food and warmth since is is obvious they will not pay for it? I would suggest you read that book.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Yes, very good, you win the good conduct medal, ding, ding, ding, stealing is a sin. Your problem is, life and a relationship with the Lord is not a mathematical equation. In your senario, it is a fact that the person that claimed bankruptcy did not pay the doctor. It is not a fact that not paying the doctor is a sin or stealing, as this is a procedure provided under both federal and state law. Where you err is equating not paying the doctor with theft and sin. If I got services from the doctor, and did not pay him, that is sin. If I go through the laws of the land because I have no ability to pay him, that is not a sin.

So, do you consider charity given by a local church to a needy person a sin since they are receiving some type of service they did not pay for? If someone is cold and hungry, as the book of James talks about, do you say "God bless you" and leave them cold and hungry because it is sin not to provide food and warmth since is is obvious they will not pay for it? I would suggest you read that book.

Your logic isn't making any sense. You are basically saying that since it's legal to not pay him by claiming bankruptcy, it's not a sin. I am not putting words in your mouth; it's almost verbatim. With that logic, abortion isn't a sin. Sure, killing a baby is sin. But going through the laws to kill a baby you can't keep isn't sin.

In your second scenario, the aid was given freely. It wasn't forcibly taken. If you can't see the difference, them I'm sorry.

 

[saturneptune]

Your logic isn't making any sense. You are basically saying that since it's legal to not pay him by claiming bankruptcy, it's not a sin. I am not putting words in your mouth; it's almost verbatim. With that logic, abortion isn't a sin. Sure, killing a baby is sin. But going through the laws to kill a baby you can't keep isn't sin.

In your second scenario, the aid was given freely. It wasn't forcibly taken. If you can't see the difference, them I'm sorry.

First of all, you act like I have filed bankruptcy because I disagree with your conclusion about bankruptcy being sin. I have been debt free for longer than you have been alive. I raised a family on a very modest salary. Both kids went to college with no debt and have bachelor degrees, families and careers. The house has been paid for decades, and do not take out car loans. By the way, Dave Ramsey is a famous radio financial counselor who is on a war against debt. He is very closely aligned with military families, which is why I would have thought you would have heard of him.

Since we are throwing out opinions about sin here left and right, I contend that the sin was probably in the life style that lead to bankruptcy in some cases. That is much more likely than the bankruptcy being a sin. Aside from the problem of you using mathematical formulas and logic to explain away daily life (did you go to Camp Isosceles when you were a kid?) the very idea of comparing abortion to bankruptcy is ludicrous.

OK so lets talk about logic. Someone owns a new house with a large mortgage. The market decreases the value of the house by half. Insurance is adjusted to match the replacement value of the house. A tornado destroys the house, and the family is forced into bankruptcy because they cannot afford the payments of the first house plus a new place to live in. They file bankruptcy. What is the sin here? Did the tornado sin?

 

[evangelist6589]

I believe so. In fact, what you stated was an almost identical situation that we were in. I got hurt and lost my job at pretty much the same time. 3 hospital visits in a matter of months. It was all out of my control. But to not pay it would have been stealing from the doctors and credit card companies.

See, I believe stealing is stealing. Sin is sin. Regardless of justification. And getting a service or good and not paying for it is stealing, even if you believe that the circumstances leading up to it were out of your control.

What if you CANT pay it??? You do not make enough money and it would be impossible to pay it.

 

[HAMel]

One never knows what tomorrow may hold for them, and to be honest, I was thankful for this lawful protection!

I commend you HAMel for your honesty, and pray that with our candid confessions, others will do likewise!

...and thank you RD2 for your kind words. Honesty has always been the best policy with me! Right up there with being strong enough to admit failure..., and failure always leads to growth. If I screwed up then I screwed up. No reason to point the finger in any direction but back toward myself.

John 8:9, is a powerful verse with many applications. "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last:"
Source: BIBLE

Quite clearly, those elders spoken of here came to grips with their holier-than-thou attitude toward this woman but the cowards just turned and walked away. None of 'em were "gripped" enough regarding their own sin to apologize for their over-zealousness.

Often, when I see my neighbor out in the yard working around I'll approach him for conversation. He drinks beer.

...is it a sin for me to be neighborly with someone who drinks beer?

 

[evangelist6589]

First off, I have no clue who Dave Ramsey is. So, I guess I won't be telling him hi for you.

Secondly, I have attacked no one on here, or spoken negatively about anyone. I have answered the OP. Yet I am greeted with hostility from you.

Not sure why you're amazed. In one scenario, you are paying people back. In the other, you aren't.

Let's look at this logically. Someone gets hurt. They owe a doctor. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay a doctor. They've stolen from that doctor. It doesn't matter if it was their fault, or whether the doctor can take the hit, or anything. At its core, they were given a service and then didn't pay. Preconceived or not.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C. If not paying for a good or service is stealing and bankruptcy is not paying for a good or service, bankruptcy is stealing. Stealing is sin, right?

Again, I am not judgmental about it at all. But it is what it is.

What if they CANT pay it????? What if they desire to pay it but they cannot? Did you ever stop to think about that?

 

[evangelist6589]

Yes, very good, you win the good conduct medal, ding, ding, ding, stealing is a sin. Your problem is, life and a relationship with the Lord is not a mathematical equation. In your senario, it is a fact that the person that claimed bankruptcy did not pay the doctor. It is not a fact that not paying the doctor is a sin or stealing, as this is a procedure provided under both federal and state law. Where you err is equating not paying the doctor with theft and sin. If I got services from the doctor, and did not pay him, that is sin. If I go through the laws of the land because I have no ability to pay him, that is not a sin.

So, do you consider charity given by a local church to a needy person a sin since they are receiving some type of service they did not pay for? If someone is cold and hungry, as the book of James talks about, do you say "God bless you" and leave them cold and hungry because it is sin not to provide food and warmth since is is obvious they will not pay for it? I would suggest you read that book.

Amen. James clearly talks about giving to those in need and they may not be able to pay back.

 

[saturneptune]

One never knows what tomorrow may hold for them, and to be honest, I was thankful for this lawful protection!

I commend you HAMel for your honesty, and pray that with our candid confessions, others will do likewise!

...and thank you RD2 for your kind words. Honesty has always been the best policy with me! Right up there with being strong enough to admit failure..., and failure always leads to growth. If I screwed up then I screwed up. No reason to point the finger in any direction but back toward myself.

John 8:9, is a powerful verse with many applications. "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last:"
Source: BIBLE

Quite clearly, those elders spoken of here came to grips with their holier-than-thou attitude toward this woman but the cowards just turned and walked away. None of 'em were "gripped" enough regarding their own sin to apologize for their over-zealousness.

Often, when I see my neighbor out in the yard working around I'll approach him for conversation. He drinks beer.

...is it a sin for me to be neighborly with someone who drinks beer?

Now there is a common sense, Scriptural post without the A squared plus B squared = C squared crap. Thanks for the post. To answer your question, no, it is not a sin to talk to your neighbor.

 

[saturneptune]

Amen. James clearly talks about giving to those in need and they may not be able to pay back.

Perfect example of faith without works. Great comparison.

 

[evangelist6589]

Perfect example of faith without works. Great comparison.

Question is if Sapper Woody can read the book.

 

[Amy.G]

Let's look at this logically. Someone gets hurt. They owe a doctor. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay a doctor. They've stolen from that doctor.

First of all, it's obvious that you don't know squat about bankruptcy laws!

The purpose of the laws are 2 fold. To pay the debts you owe by liquidating ALL your assets, including your home. And to have a fresh start without debt or in some cases of bankruptcy to restructure your debt so that you CAN pay it.

In your above scenario about the doctor not getting paid, you are speaking out of ignorance. How do you know he didn't get paid? When a person has to sell their possessions (according to bankruptcy laws) it is for the sheer purpose of paying said dr.

You seem to think that the person filing bankruptcy just gets a free ride. In reality, they have to give up everything they own except for a few dollars and their car. They may not even end up with enough money to secure another place to live. Their credit is ruined for an average of seven years. It is a black spot on their record forever! It is devastating in many cases and many couples end in divorce. Many suffer deep depression and even suicide.

So get off your high horse and do some actual research before your make your blanket judgments!

 

[HAMel]

...and a thank you to saturneptune for your comments.

Bankruptcy laws are designed to protect from unscrupulous lenders and their often criminal attempts to collect. The Time Share Industry is one of the worst but when it comes to money the clowns come out of the woodwork.

I have to agree though that if someone files for bankruptcy merely to get out of paying their bills then this is wrong. On the other hand, filing for bankruptcy while showing legitimate grounds to do so, is another matter.

Before we were granted such we had to appear before a hearing officer for review. Our lawyer confirmed to said hearing officer our request was for justifiable reasons and our request was approved by the court.

I was watching a foot ball game the other day with Cheer Leaders dressed in skimpy outfits. Is that a sin? Watching 'em jump around on the sideline, I mean.

 

[Sapper Woody]

It's been shown that one can't state a contrary opinion here without being told they are on a high horse, their ability to read called into question, and being called judgmental.

Again, I have condemned no one. I have spoke ill of no one. Yet the attitude that I have received from several posters is reprehensible.

I simply stated why I believe it is a sin. And I stick to it. If you want to attack me instead of debating my position, go ahead.

But I still stand by it.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's been shown that one can't state a contrary opinion here without being told they are on a high horse, their ability to read called into question, and being called judgmental.

Again, I have condemned no one. I have spoke ill of no one. Yet the attitude that I have received from several posters is reprehensible.

I simply stated why I believe it is a sin. And I stick to it. If you want to attack me instead of debating my position, go ahead.

But I still stand by it.

I disagree with you but you are right about not being able to post one's view without being condemned. And the attitude in your posts are always gracious.

 

[Amy.G]

It's been shown that one can't state a contrary opinion here without being told they are on a high horse, their ability to read called into question, and being called judgmental.

Again, I have condemned no one. I have spoke ill of no one. Yet the attitude that I have received from several posters is reprehensible.

I simply stated why I believe it is a sin. And I stick to it. If you want to attack me instead of debating my position, go ahead.

But I still stand by it.

I have debated your position and proven you to be wrong in judging others. Yes, you have pronounced judgment because you have called something a sin that God does not. By your standards, I can say that posting on internet forums is a sin just because "I" say so.

Having a different opinion is one thing. Claiming others have SINNED because you have a different opinion is quite another.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, you have pronounced judgment because you have called something a sin that God does not.

He answered a direct question in the op. He pronounced no judgment on anyone.

 

[Amy.G]

He answered a direct question in the op. He pronounced no judgment on anyone.

He says it is a sin to file bankruptcy. How is that not judgment?

 

[Sapper Woody]

He says it is a sin to file bankruptcy. How is that not judgment?

According to webster-merriam

1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced

Accordingly, everyone on here has passed judgment. But I am not being judgmental towards anyone, contrary to some who disagree with me.

Plain and simple, I see this issue in black and white, and others don't. I am entitled to my opinion, same as everyone else. Either way, we all agree that it's an unfortunate circumstance that people need to recover from, and avoid.