saturneptune
New Member
Biblical standards are black and whilte. Your opinions are shades of gray.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Bankruptcy
- Thread starter Judith
- Start date
Biblical standards are black and whilte. Your opinions are shades of gray.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I don't see how my opinion is the gray when I stand on a truth and follow a logical conclusion. The grey area comes in when people say, "Normally this is wrong, but it's OK because it's protected by law."
I am simply stating that to not pay a debt is stealing. Even if there's a legal way out. That's cut and dried. Black and white. You are the one making it gray, by adding circumstances in which you think it is OK to not pay someone what they are owed. I don't see it that way.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Sapper, you are making perfectly reasonable arguments from what you maintain to be basic Biblical Principles.
Nothing wrong with your opinions or how you've arrived upon them. I, personally, am inclined to agree with you; although it is a complex issue in some cases which may not always be so very simple to judge. Those who are jumping down your throat are out of line for doing so.
You are on no "high-horse".
You are not being "judgemental"
You are admittedly only expressing YOUR honestly held view as YOU see it.
You are being treated as though you are Pharisaically condemning any who disagree with you with abandon. It is not so. Yours is a perfectly valid and reasonably expressed opinion.
Prov. 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion
Nothing wrong with your opinions or how you've arrived upon them. I, personally, am inclined to agree with you; although it is a complex issue in some cases which may not always be so very simple to judge. Those who are jumping down your throat are out of line for doing so.
You are on no "high-horse".
You are not being "judgemental"
You are admittedly only expressing YOUR honestly held view as YOU see it.
You are being treated as though you are Pharisaically condemning any who disagree with you with abandon. It is not so. Yours is a perfectly valid and reasonably expressed opinion.
Prov. 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I agree with those words as stated. But I believe that going bankrupt is refusing to pay a debt. You are forcing the other person to forgive your debt. Everyone can pay something towards a debt, even if its only a couple dollars a month.
There are alternatives to bankruptcy. There are people who can talk to creditors and get them to stop charging interest so your debt doesn't continue to grow. Sometimes they can even get the creditors to forgive past late payments and interest. This is what my wife and I did. We had only one creditor who wouldn't stop interest, so our focus was on paying that one off. Then we paid off smallest debts first.
We've only been out of debt for about 2.5 years now, and I'm already getting credit card offers for 12mo no interest.
I am thankful to God that someone showed us a way besides bankruptcy, as it allowed me to improve my credit score and not have that 7 year black mark, as well as keep my testimony intact.
I feel for anyone who believes that bankruptcy is the only way out of their situation. But I believe it is sin, a detriment to your life, and a detriment to your testimony.
That is his view. He did not assign that to anyone nor pronounce some kind of outcome on the. He answered the question in the op directly. Maybe we could start a thread on what it means to judge someone else.
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree with those words as stated. But...
But...
Yep, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and it's my hope you never face such a situation as having to declare bankruptcy but...
Perhaps you're in a financial situation money is of no concern, but...
Not everyone can fit within the parameters of your current attitude. Not everyone can fit in the same mold as all others. Life just doesn't work that way.
I hope you never suffer a broken leg but...
Should you, you gotta get it fixed or else you'll be lame for the rest of your life.
The next product you purchase take the time to read the printed guarantee very closely. Never mind a contract, just read the "guarantee" very closely. The money changers have it sewed up so tight the consumer doesn't stand a chance.
Try living in the Peoples' Republic of Virginia and be 25 minutes late with your Electric Bill and watch what happens.
Find yourself facing a legal matter. Lawyers go for the jugular vain of your bank account in a heart beat, else, there's the door. Not everything is an open and shut situation.
But...
Yep, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and it's my hope you never face such a situation as having to declare bankruptcy but...
Perhaps you're in a financial situation money is of no concern, but...
Not everyone can fit within the parameters of your current attitude. Not everyone can fit in the same mold as all others. Life just doesn't work that way.
I hope you never suffer a broken leg but...
Should you, you gotta get it fixed or else you'll be lame for the rest of your life.
The next product you purchase take the time to read the printed guarantee very closely. Never mind a contract, just read the "guarantee" very closely. The money changers have it sewed up so tight the consumer doesn't stand a chance.
Try living in the Peoples' Republic of Virginia and be 25 minutes late with your Electric Bill and watch what happens.
Find yourself facing a legal matter. Lawyers go for the jugular vain of your bank account in a heart beat, else, there's the door. Not everything is an open and shut situation.
Hamel I agree.
If this were the land where the rules were biblical, then the ugly of bankruptcy wouldn't be an issue or so one sided against the consumer, and then again, the consumer would be "surety" for their own debts. The point being that everyone would be a lot more interested in playing fair.
I understand the thinking of some that bankruptcy is not paying debts, and that creditors will make allowances. Some may, most will not.
There are many causes for a person to be found in overwhelmingly insurmountable debt. Sickness, death, accident... all come our way, and can break the believer from financial security. Cancer is often a sickness that will take every resource from a family and leave them totally destitute, unable to meet demands they once met. A one person business owner who is injured or by accident is unable to fulfill a contract is liable and can be "taken to the cleaners."
There are ungodly folks who take advantage of the consumer with all manner of devices from scams to shams. Remember, the children of the ungodly are wiser (more shrewd) than the children of light (Luke 16).
But there is another matter I would like some to consider on this thread.
What part does the assembly play in bankruptcy of one of the faithful?
Why is it that a believer is not surrounded by such support, that folks are left with no other option?
Is the assembly so weak that it cannot sit on the ash heap with that person and offer Godly support in a substantial way?
Has the assembly gone bankrupt?
When should an assembly step up, and when should the assembly be held as accountable by God for not sharing in the pain of one of its own?
When does the assembly loose the right to proclaim the blessing of giving when one of their own is in desperate need?
Who would take even from their own needs to give to one who is in more need? Paul reflects that the churches throughout the world gave to meet the needs of the assembly in Jerusalem.
Is this not then showing that ALL believers should help - cross assembly lines - those believers in need?
What message will God deliver to those who have much, and give little out of the much, compared to those who have nothing and yet are willing to give of time, talent and other non-monetary areas?
These questions are hard, and I find that even bringing rebuke to my own living.
How much are we more like Ananias and Sapphira in that we claim to "give all" and yet keep a portion back?
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Inspector Javert
Active Member
There are not...there is ONE CASE...only one, namely, demanding or acquiring the property or services of someone else on credit while also being incapable or unwilling to pay for it. That is a breach of contract and is therefore sin.
Is free... I've never owed anyone money in order to become sick or ill. Sickness costs nothing.
Is also free.
Costs nothing.
Also free..............
I just took my sister-in-law on a ride on my motorcycle....
I dropped it!!!
It cost me $0.000 to have that accident.
Since I felt I should purchase medical services for the wounds she sustained in that accident...
I'm now out a few bucks (about $2,000.00 worth)......but the accident was free.
Please define what "accident" means as far as a word which renders one non-liable for paying for honest services rendered to repair any possible damage sustained therein. I am not seeing the point.
B.T.W....if MORE people actually bothered to PAY for medical services...then it wouldn't be so expensive for those of us who actually pay what we owe.
It's people like Sapper and I who pay to make up for people like YOU........who apparently refuse to pay the medical bills you acquire. They charge people, like Sapper and I, who actually pay the bills MORE because they are cognizant of thieves who refuse to pay their bills. I'm personally sick of paying astronomical medical bills because people refuse to pay them. It's killing my family.
No it isn't...Cancer is free. It costs no one money to have cancer.
As is perfectly fair. A one-man business incapable of paying what he owes is still liable for his/her debts. You make no Biblical point yet.
Possibly, they should help him or her to pay their debts....
they should consider anathema any thieves who scream "bankruptcy" when that person refuses to pay what they owe for goods or services rendered.
Because the assemblies are equally as wicked as those who demand the government absolve them of debt that they don't think there is any NEED to help that person.
Why should they come to the rescue of their own????
Their own can simply steal from another with "Bankruptcy" Laws...
Why bother?
You can't insist on the one hand that financial difficulty can be removed by appealing to bankruptcy, and ALSO appeal to some demand that the Assembly help it's members out of their debt....
Make your choice:
My choice...is that members pay what they owe...and the assembly does what they can to help one another do just that. But, you can't have it both ways.
Yes, you are encouraging the Assembly to go "Bankrupt". Aren't you aware of what you are preaching?
If you had your way...yes.
If Sapper has his way..... no.
As soon as the members of that assembly are willing to own up to and pay the debts that they owe...
Good grief.... this is so elementary. :sleep:
When the "ones in need" think that it is perfectly Biblical to simply welch on all their debts and refuse to pay them. At that point, I imagine, the assembly is as free to welch on debt as anyone of it's members are.
Many Godly people would...I've seen it SCORES of times. God's people are WONDERFUL!
Yes they did...what Paul did not do, is tell the believers at Jerusalem to welch on their honest debts and refuse to honestly pay them.............he had other believers help them. I fail to see how this helps your argument.
Of course it is...
But that's not what you want to argue..
You aren't arguing that believers should help the needy (specifically their own)...you want to argue that believers should fail to pay their debts which are honestly owed. Those are two different arguments, and conflating the two won't fly.
No they aren't...they are really quite easy. Not complicated in the least.
You should only feel rebuke if you insist on welching on your debts. Otherwise, there is nothing to rebuke you for.
Not much at all.
Different scenario:
They belonged to the Assembly at Jerusalem,
that Assembly held "all in common".
They were partakers,
they were literally stealing from the congregation and other members.
It's completely irrelevant.
Last edited by a moderator:
Inspector Javert, over the past 48 years my wife and I have found ourselves in serious tight situations on several occasions. As Sapper, we worked hard and paid our way out of debt.
...but there comes a time, given the right ingredients, where one simply cannot "work" their way out of it.
So, there's no need for sarcasm. When I enlisted, 1965, we received a whopping $95.00 a month.
...but there comes a time, given the right ingredients, where one simply cannot "work" their way out of it.
So, there's no need for sarcasm. When I enlisted, 1965, we received a whopping $95.00 a month.
HAMel,
Again, I agree.
Some seem to draw conclusions from vapor and make broad sweeping condemnations to which there is obviously no information to support from your or my posts.
Perhaps this is a point at which some have encountered there own dark times, and post out of reactive reflections.
I don't know that there is any believer who has not faced some situation or another in which they are not more tender as a result.
Think that we i the Church need to realise that if someone is saved by the Lord jesus, that we will ALL experience hard times and troubles in this life, and that things such as bankruptcy/divorce etc are NOT unpardonable sins, nor reason to exclude Christ grace towards us!
How true. One of the most illogical ideas that are placed in the minds and hearts of new converts is that as Born Again Believers, all their troubles will be dissolved. Not so. It's just the beginning.
John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Source: The Bible - John 16:33
Even the super rich have problems and tribulations only they are exempt from worry when it comes to their next electric bill. Just consider that night time Soap Opera of years ago..., Dallas. Just a TV show at heart but perhaps Dallas really reflected the internal strife of said Super Rich.
Thank goodness I'll never know what it's like to be super rich. Not in this life, that is. In the world, men hoard gold. In glory it will be under our feet.
Just because a debt becomes more than we could ever pay does not mean we are free to dissolve it. Bankruptcy is sin when we use it to dissolve our debts. If we have a debt we pay on it until death if need be but we do not dissolve it after we have accepted the benefits of the product or services. That is the sin and it is called theft by litigation.
I agree with prophet.
There are those who are evil and will use "usury" (the practice of making unethical or immoral loans) as a tool for their predatory lending.
For instance. A person "pays" for passage to America for someone else, but then forces repayment by submitting that "someone else" to all manor of evil. Everyone recognizes that as totally wrong.
The same applies to the loan shark, or even the credit card companies that have complete authority over the interest rates and minimum payment schemes.
Is it righteous that a believer use the credit card for purchases?
I am coming to the conclusion that it isn't.
Too often "traps" by the adversary are set that "bind" the believers into servitude because of the credit cards.
Do yuo hold that all debt is sinful, or that we cannot ever be in will of God with any outstanding debt owed?