Baptism and obedience

[MEE]

Originally posted by MEE:


What is it that they say, "Birds of a feather flock together."

Anyway, we could go on and on over this, but you believe it your way and I'll just stick with the Bible.

MEE

Carol, I have to say I find that birds of a feather comment on the insulting side.

Blessings. [/QUOTE]

** thess. I didn't mean it to be an insult. I just meant that this is a 'Trinitarian' board and all of you stick together.

Although the Church of Christ folks do admit to the fact that the 'name' of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.

I have heard that some will go as far as to say, upon baptising "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is Jesus Christ."

That's why I was curious as to how a Church of Christ member may have answered my question.

MEE

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Read James chapter 2 in context of course. James has quite a bit to say about how faith and works need to work together:


What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself . James 2:17

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works ." James 2:18

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless ? James 2:20

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected ; James 2:22

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone . James 2:24

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead . James 2:26

When you boil Christianity down to the essentials, It is faith and nothing else. We have nothing solid or tangible by which we can say we are saved.

We can repeat the thoughts of others such as James, Paul, and the rest of the Bible authors, but even to do that one must have Faith. There simply is no solid tangible proof the dead go anywhere but the grave. No science that proves there is life after death. No tangible proof that the places called heaven and hell even exist! We have no tangible proof that Jesus is the Messiah, or that Jesus saves. And NO, we have nothing other than faith knowledge upon which to trust. When is the last time you saw someone arise from the grave after being there for 3 days? For that matter when is the First time you personally in the flesh saw it?

Everything you believe about life after death is faith knowledge regardless of the source of that knowledge.

Without faith we have nothing of an eternal nature!

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:

You don't seem unified with your Catholic brethern in the insistance
of joining the "church started by Jesus."

I don’t insist on anyone joining any church and have not noticed any other Catholic here insisting on it either. I do believe however that Jesus started a church, and left His authority to baptize and teach all He has commanded, and promised to be with His church to the end of time. : "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Nor have you mentioned baptism
as the mechanism of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Jesus covered the necessity of Baptism with His great commission to do all He has commanded

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism , one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Ephesians 4:4-7

Do you agree that salvation can be secured by following the invitation
on the Baptist Board frontpage as such : ?

No, I believe what the bible teaches that with faith working through love we have in Jesus Christ hope of salvation. This is salvation by grace.

“Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” 1 John 3:21-24

Grace is God's
part and faith and love are all that we can offer, so in that sense, our
obligation is to have faith and love.

Scripture teaches that faith, hope, and love are from God, with the greatest gift being love. That breastplate of faith and love and helmet of hope of salvation are gifts from God...not anything we can boast about. This is grace. You seem to believe faith and love come from man. This is very untrue. All grace is from God. Doing God’s will is not possible without God’s gift of grace.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:

Do you believe doing God's will is possible without grace?

God Bless

 

[Singer]

I don’t insist on anyone joining any church and have not noticed any other Catholic here
insisting on it either

Good, then we can discount the need to join the Catholic church as either beneficial or
on the basis of commanded by God. Your posts HAVE indicated that you do not hold
to that belief of most Catholics.

I do believe however that Jesus started a church, and left His
authority to baptize and teach all He has commanded, and promised
to be with His church to the end of time.

I understand that thoroughly as the 2x2 Group I was born into also holds to that
belief of their own "Way" ...nearly word for word.

No, I believe what the bible teaches that with faith working through love
we have in Jesus Christ hope of salvation. This is salvation by grace.

All good Catholics do not claim salvation as a present situation of the soul. It is always
in the state of being created. That would leave me with no joy...only fear and wonderment.
It is not wrong to say we have the hope of salvation, nor is it wrong to say we are
saved. The invitation from Baptist Board is a proper approach to accept the Lord.

You seem to believe faith and love come from man. This is very untrue.
All grace is from God. Doing God’s will is not possible without
God’s gift of grace.

No, it does not come from man,but we must EXERCISE it for it to work.Will you
accept that term? (Exercise)

We do know only God can provide the Grace.

Singer

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:

All good Catholics do not claim salvation as a present situation of the soul. It is always
in the state of being created. That would leave me with no joy...only fear and wonderment.
It is not wrong to say we have the hope of salvation, nor is it wrong to say we are
saved. The invitation from Baptist Board is a proper approach to accept the Lord.

The invitation from Baptist Board is not supported by what Holy Scripture teaches. I, right this moment, have hope of salvation. This brings me joy. St. Paul had great joy in spite of teaching the need to work out one's salvation with "fear and trembling". We are promised hope of salvation. Have you ever heard a Protestant pastor say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling? I haven't.

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling" Philippians 2:12

No, it does not come from man,but we must EXERCISE it for it to work. Will you
accept that term? (Exercise)

Doing God’s will is only possible by the grace of God. Does doing God’s will involve exercising our minds and muscles? Yes. We can’t do God’s will without his gift of grace. It is Jesus Christ working through us. This is what being a Christian is about. We are Jesus Christ’s arms and legs here on earth. We are the Body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the head. What good works we do is only doing God’s will. Doing God's will means we are His brothers and sisters and belong to Him. It is faith working through love. Salvation by grace.

God Bless

[ May 19, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:50

"Faith alone" is not taught in Holy Scripture. As far as Baptism, it is God's will for all of us.

"Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

It is nothing we can brag about apart from the grace of God. To respond in obedience to God, is to do God's will, with God's grace.



God Bless

[ May 18, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:
Baptism apart from God’s will and God’s grace would be just getting wet, or making a public statement. The Baptism Jesus commands is about God’s grace, not human efforts. Among other things it is about our becoming adopted children of God and members of the Body of Christ. It is about hope of salvation by grace.

To respond in obedience to God, is to do God's will, with God's grace. It is faith working through love, giving us hope of salvation through the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross.

No, I am not saying you have to become a Catholic to be saved. I do hope however that you seek God’s will in your own life and be the best Christian you can be with the grace God gives you, and don’t ignore what Scripture teaches, such as working out your salvation with fear and trembling. I also hope you put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. Faith, hope, and love, are free gifts from God and the greatest is love which will endure forever.

God Bless

[ May 19, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

Kathryn,

This is what being a Christian is about. We are Jesus
Christ’s arms and legs here on earth. We are the Body of Christ

This contradicts other Catholic input that the RCC is the Body of Christ.
I agree with your version; not the official Catholic.

"Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name
of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift
of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:3

Repent..I have. Baptism..I have not. Yet I have received the Holy Spirit. Tell me how
this is possible according to Acts 2:3...?

............and don’t ignore what Scripture teaches, such as working out your
salvation with fear and trembling.

I do not concentrate on the fear and trembling . Salvation was "worked out"
26 years ago and now I concentrate on the assurance of the same and carrying out
the will of God for me through song and personal contact. Also received another
work of grace known to me as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". Awesome..!!

Singer

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:

I do not concentrate on the fear and trembling . Salvation was "worked out" 26 years ago and now I concentrate on the assurance of the same and carrying out the will of God for me through song and personal contact. Also received another work of grace known to me as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". Awesome..!!

I am sorry to hear you believe your salvation was worked out 26 years ago. You seem to decide for yourself that the will of God for you is song and personal contact. Jesus has commanded much more. Holy Scripture teaches salvation is a life long struggle made possible with the grace of God. It also teaches salvation is with difficulty. Holy Scripture doesn't support your working it all out 26 years ago. St. Paul didn't work it all out one moment in time.

“ I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable . Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified .” 1 Corinthians 9:23-24

“So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure ”. ; Philippians 2:12- 13

“AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED , WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER ?” 1 Peter 4:18

I am not going to club you over the head. I would like though to know what you think Jesus meant by: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

God Bless

[ May 19, 2003, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

I am sorry to hear you believe your salvation was worked out 26 years ago.
You seem to decide for yourself that the will of God for you is song and
personal contact. Jesus has commanded much more. Holy Scripture teaches
salvation is a life long struggle made possible with the grace of God. It also
teaches salvation is with difficulty. Holy Scripture doesn't support your working
it all out 26 years ago. St. Paul didn't work it all out one moment in time.

Wherein lies your joy, Kathryn.
In the fact that IF you obey and IF you follow commandments and IF
you fight the fight and IF you overcome and IF you persevere and IF you pray
diligently and IF you run the race and IF you win the race you will be saved ...?

That's alot of IFs.
The problem with than analogy is that it leaves open an option of IF NOT
and that's scary.

Jesus said "Whosoever believes in me shall never die".

That's a present state of existance (don't die first)

.

"Today is the day of salvation "

Jesus has run the race for us and he has won.

Singer

 

[Briguy]

Kathryn, Faith justifies. The proof of real faith is works. We are created for "good works". To do the good works we must have first been "created" (saved). Saved first, then works. If a person has no works then they were not created (saved). That is what the Bible teaches in a nut shell.

OK, Question on the great commission. We are told by Jesus to go into the whole world and preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I said above "we" but is this really for "we". With the exception of DHK, who in this conversation is witnessing AND baptizing people. I don't baptize and never have. Most of you don't. The question is twofold. Who is this commission for? and if it is for us are we disobeying by not baptizing those who we have helped lead to Christ?

Thanks

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Kathryn]

Singer says:

That's alot of IFs.
The problem with than analogy is that it leaves open an option of IF NOT
and that's scary.

It is not an analogy I made up, it is the teaching of Holy Scripture. There are many other warnings in the word of God that do not support once saved always saved.

You asked where my joy is: My joy is the life of Christ within me. Grace.

“Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” 1 John 3:21-24

I have eternal life with Jesus Christ within me in the here and now, just like the Apostles. When I sin, I repent and am forgiven. Scripture teaches us the necessity of ongoing conversion. You ignore the parts of Holy Scripture that don’t fit what you want to believe, all of Scripture is the truth and is the word of God. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is my hope of salvation. Yes, I have eternal life in the here and now...this is sanctifying grace.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Brian:

OK, Question on the great commission. We are told by Jesus to go into the whole world and preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I said above "we" but is this really for "we". With the exception of DHK, who in this conversation is witnessing AND baptizing people. I don't baptize and never have. Most of you don't. The question is twofold. Who is this commission for? and if it is for us are we disobeying by not baptizing those who we have helped lead to Christ?

This was the great commission to the leaders of the church Jesus established on earth. He had given them His authority and sent them out to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He also gave them the authority to teach the disciples from all over the world to observe all He has commanded, and He promised to be with them, always, even to the end the age. This commission for the leadership is till the end of time.

“But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them , saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age ." Matthew 28:16-20

God Bless

[ May 19, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

Hey Kathryn:

The scriptures you provide sure don't support Catholic doctrine at all !!

“Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence
before God and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we
keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus
Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one
who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know
by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”
1 John 3:21-24

Look at the promises in the verse above that are present.

The only IF is the "If our heart does not condemn us".
Once that is out of the way through becoming "right with God" via repentance,
acceptance, belief in Him,....whatever you want to call it, then the rest is His
responsibility to provide. He puts the new heart in us...we have no power to.
He gave us the faith in the first place. He uses us how He has need. We are
just his hands and feet/ following orders.

"By the spirit He has given us"...shows that we do not change our spirit...it is
given.

We have the ''confidence before God"....we can't have that with so many doubts
and IFs involved.

We are not all eyes, nor feet, nor hands to which we can condemn each other.
If God says I am to provide witness through music and personal contact, who
is to criticize. If I am to say I am saved; who is to criticize.

My joy is full..it cannot be stolen by mere man (woman)

Singer

 

[Yelsew]

Kathryn,

This was the great commission to the leaders of the church Jesus established on earth. He had given them His authority and sent them out to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He also gave them the authority to teach the disciples from all over the world to observe all He has commanded, and He promised to be with them, always, even to the end the age. This commission for the leadership is till the end of time.

The Great Commission is to the end of the age. The Apostles all died within their alloted times (within 120 years) of their birth. Yet the commission still stands valid, so who is to carry out that commission to make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Is it "ordained priests" or is it "disciples"? Christianity, like all other religions is a Hand-Me-Down religion, where the first believers, teach others to be believers, who then teach others to be believers, etc. Therefore, whoever becomes a believer has the authority to teach others, not only the authority, but the obligation to do so. (if you confess me before men, I will confess you before My Father in Heaven). Teaching the Gospel message is not reserved for only those who are "ordained by an organization", for truly every disciple of Christ is ordained, even commanded, to bring others into the discipleship (adherance to the teachings) of Christ.

 

[Kathryn]

Singer :

Hey Kathryn:
The scriptures you provide sure don't support Catholic doctrine at all !!

“Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence
before God and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we
keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus
Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one
who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know
by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”
1 John 3:21-24

Look at the promises in the verse above that are present.

The only IF is the "If our heart does not condemn us".
Once that is out of the way……..

I posted 1 John 3: 21-24 because all of it is Catholic doctrine, even the “if” part.

You say “once that IF is out of the way…..”. How do you get this “IF” out of the way? Why did the word of God put the “IF” in? This is why the doctrine of OSOS is not true. Our heart can condemn us.

The word of God teaches the need for ongoing conversion. When we fail and sin, we need to confess and repent. That is why Jesus gave the apostles His authority to forgive sin. We are to live in grace not sin. We are called to be holy, as our heavenly Father is holy, with Christ within us. Jesus Christ is my hope of salvation. My hope of salvation is within me just as Holy Scripture teaches. Faith working through love.....salvation by grace.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

[The Great Commission is to the end of the age. The Apostles all died within their alloted times (within 120 years) of their birth. Yet the commission still stands valid, so who is to carry out that commission to make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?]

The Great Commission was to the leadership of His Church. That leadership under the Holy Spirit has been passed down and will continue to the end of the age, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Yes we are all called to spread the Good News, but this is not the Great Commission.

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
[The Great Commission is to the end of the age. The Apostles all died within their alloted times (within 120 years) of their birth. Yet the commission still stands valid, so who is to carry out that commission to make disciples, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?]

The Great Commission was to the leadership of His Church. That leadership under the Holy Spirit has been passed down and will continue to the end of the age, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Yes we are all called to spread the Good News, but this is not the Great Commission.

God Bless

For the sake of textual accuracy, the great commission was to Jesus' selected Apostles. Therefore after they died so did the commission.

The reality is the Great Commission is to any and All who adhere to the teachings of Jesus, and not just to the leadership of the church. What you say about the commission is a Catholic church based, self perpetuating fallacy!

To accomplish great things, mankind assembles and organizes itself so that the great thing may be accomplished. Thus the church. But the church is not established to give selected persons positions of authority. It is established to perform the great commission. In order to do that, the authority must be placed in the lowest echalons responsible for the work, and that is the individual believer. That is what Peter was saying when he called the believers a "kingdom of priests". As priests all believers have the same authority that the "high priest" has. All priests are responsible to the same Lord and Master. All priests have direct line of communication to God the Father, and authority from Jesus the Son of God, to carry out the commission first handed to the Apostles. To think otherwise is pure shortsightedness.

 

[Briguy]

Kathryn, Thank you for your answer on my great commission question. I was interested in what others thought. At least you and Y. responded. Jesus was speaking to His very best faithful friends when he gave the talk above. However, my contention is that it is not a commandment but a pep talk. Jesus was like a coach sending His team out on the field. He used baptism in that case becasue in the early church baptism was what labeled a person as a believer. If you were actually converted then you proved it by being baptized. Once Baptized you were a member of "the way" and open for persecution.
Sorry, I am making a short answer long here. The bottom line is that followers of Jesus were told to spread the Gospel and teach others. Baptism has changed and if Jesus was coaching a team today he would say things differently, I suspect. The essense of the speech would be the same, that is to win souls and train them up. The great commission is for leaders, yes but not to the exclusion of any believers. Hope that made sense.

Kathryn, you didn't take any shots on my "faith justifies" post above. Last time I discussed that topic with Carson he just quit. It is not like Brother Carson to do that but in that case he did. I am willing to make it a new thread if you care to continue it, seeing how here it is off topic. Let me know. Thanks again for your quick responses

In Christ,
Brian