Baptism and obedience

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

For the sake of textual accuracy, the great commission was to Jesus' selected Apostles. Therefore after they died so did the commission.

Holy Scripture tell us Jesus gave the Great Commission to the ones who had the keys to the Kingdom, the eleven. He was talking to the leadership of His church whom He had given His authority. He was talking to the foundation stones of His church with Him as the cornerstone. He knew His church would endure to the end of time and He promised it would.. St. Peter and the others wasted no time passing this authority on to Mathias. The Apostles are the foundation of His church; they passed on the authority of the keys to fulfill Jesus’ promises. He built His church on rock not sand. The Great Commission to baptize all nations and teach the gospel was brought to the four corners of the earth for almost 2000 years and will continue to the end of the age. No, we all don’t have this authority. The leadership have the authority to baptize and teach. I can share the gospel, but I don’t have a teaching authority from God, and I don’t have the authority to baptize unless it is a life and death situation. In such a situation, the church has given me authority to baptize.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Hi, Brian:

Kathryn, Faith justifies. The proof of real faith is works. We are created for "good works". To do the good works we must have first been "created" (saved). Saved first, then works. If a person has no works then they were not created (saved). That is what the Bible teaches in a nut shell.

You are explaining that works are a result of faith. Works and love will naturally come later if the faith is real. Do you agree faith, hope, and love are gifts from God? That they are not anything we can boast about.

Faith justifies, but not faith alone. Faith can not be alone. If it is, it’s dead faith and won’t save anyone. It must be faith working through love…..salvation by grace. To say one is “saved” then later good works and love will come is not taught by Scripture.

“Faith alone” even for a short period of time apart from love is not a teaching of Scripture. “You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected” James 2:22 Faith and love have to be together for the hope of salvation which is Jesus Christ. There is no hope of salvation without love.

It is about a relationship between the two. You can’t have a relationship, if the one isn’t there. God gives us the faith, the hope, and the charity (love). Yes, we are created for good works. It is Jesus working within us.

Scripture teaches that God calls us and gives us the faith, love, and hope. That is why St. Paul says to put on the breastplate of faith and love and helmet, the hope of salvation. It is one breastplate made up of faith and love together. St. Paul and James are talking about the relationship between faith, hope, and love. Grace saves. Faith working through love.


God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Brian:

Jesus was speaking to His very best faithful friends when he gave the talk above. However, my contention is that it is not a commandment but a pep talk.

Scripture could have said Jesus called His best faithful friends and gave them the Great Commission to share with everyone else, or something close. But it didn’t. It was specific it was the 11. Even Mary was not there.

Jesus had given these 11 the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the power to forgive sins, and told Peter to feed my lambs, feed my sheep, feed my lambs. He had established a church. We were not to be left shepherdless when these men died. The church Jesus set up had a job to do. This was the Great Commission. These eleven according to Holy Scripture are the foundation stones of His church. He gave the Great Commission to them. There is no way around it. It was the eleven who had His authority to teach all He commanded, and baptize, forgive sins, to pass down this authority, and to spiritually feed us.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

The Great Commission in the Book of Acts
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

A short time later:
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

And then:
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Still on the same day:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Sometime later:
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

The Result:
Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

May I draw your attention, in this chain of events, who it is that carried out the Great Commission, as contrasted who was commanded to carry out the Great Commission. Acts 8:4 plainly says that the church at Jerusalem was scattered abroad. And those people went everywhere preaching the word, i.e., carrying out the Great Commission. The church at Jerusalem by this time had probably reached about 100,000 or more according to some historical sources. It had grown fast. A brief reading through the first few chapters of Acts would give credence to this view. It is also interesting to note in the first verse of chapter eight that the apostles, even in the midst of this persecution, remained in Jerusalem. This is precisely what the Lord had told them had not to do. Jerusalem had been evangelized and was being evangelized quite effectively. There was no need for all of them to stay there. They were to go into Judea, Samaria, and into the rest of the world and preach the gospel. They were not doing this. They were disobeying the Lord’s command. And thus God sent a great persecution to get the church “motivated” in doing the work that he had commanded them to do. It is obvious from what is written here, and what happened here, that the Great Commission was not just given to the Twelve, but to all the church—to every Christian. If you are not actively involved in carrying out the Great Commission, you are actively disobeying the Lord.
DHK

 

[Singer]

The church at Jerusalem by this time had probably reached about
100,000 or more according to some historical sources

Please note that this was NOT the Catholic Church, and Peter wasn't the
only one receiving this commission and they all spoke in tongues, and
thousands got S A V E D and...and.....and....

 

[Kathryn]

Please note that this was NOT the Catholic Church, and Peter wasn't the
only one receiving this commission and they all spoke in tongues, and
thousands got S A V E D and...and.....and....

Holy Scripture says Jesus was giving this commission to the 11, the leaders, not the whole church and everyone who belonged to it. Like I said, He had already given them His authority, keys, power to forgive sins, etc. He built His church on the foundation stones of the apostles with Him as the cornerstone and promised to be with it to the end of the age.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

I provided you the Scripture Kathryn. You provided me an opinion. You argument is not with me. And from what I can see it is not with Singer either. Your argument is with God. Take it up with Him.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:16-20

No Mary, no women, nobody but the foundation stones of His church. This is about Jesus giving His authority. It isn’t a pep talk for everyone in the church. I know a lot of everyday Christians and I don’t know any who baptize people they share the Good News of the gospel with. They refer them to someone they believe has authority to baptize “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. So, I can’t see the stretch that this is a commission for everyone. I also know many Christians who don’t believe they have to do anything, much less teach others all Jesus has commanded. Some believe “faith alone” and don’t teach even their children the commandments, Sermon on the Mount, do this in rembrance of Me, etc. "Faith alone" and I am saved. Everyone teaching what they believe to be true is chaos, and not how Jesus set up His church. There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Jesus left a church with authority and promised to be with it to the end of the age.

God Bless

 

[Yelsew]

Kathryn,

Holy Scripture says Jesus was giving this commission to the 11, the leaders, not the whole church and everyone who belonged to it.

Then you must believe that Jesus came for a select few humans, and not for those whom He said he died for.

Like I said, He had already given them His authority, keys, power to forgive sins, etc.

Do you mean without being given the "power to forgive sins" we cannot forgive sins? We are commanded to forgive those who tresspass against us, so that power to forgive sins must have been handed down to ALL of us.

If we confess Jesus before man, He will confess us before His Father in Heaven. What is confessing Jesus before man? It is essentially the Gospel message. How can we do that if we do not have the authority? So, too, the authority has been handed down to all of us. "The KEYS" now that is difficult to understand, but if we bind something here on earth is it bound in heaven? I believe so, because we bind it in our spirit. Our spirit is all that is taken to heaven, so if we have something bound in our spirit, it remains bound when we get to heaven. Another feature of Faith that has been handed down to ALL.

He built His church on the foundation stones of the apostles with Him as the cornerstone and promised to be with it to the end of the age.

He Built his church on the truth that He, Jesus, IS the Son of God, The Messiah. The church building consists of those who believe in Jesus and have faith that Jesus is who he said he is. Dead human carcasses form the weakest of foundations, because the foundation crumbles as the flesh decays. Jesus did not build his church upon humanity, but upon truth.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:

No Mary, no women, nobody but the foundation stones of His church. This is about Jesus giving His authority. It isn’t a pep talk for everyone in the church. I know a lot of everyday Christians and I don’t know any who baptize people they share the Good News of the gospel with. They refer them to someone they believe has authority to baptize “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. So, I can’t see the stretch that this is a commission for everyone. I also know many Christians who don’t believe they have to do anything, much less teach others all Jesus has commanded. Some believe “faith alone” and don’t teach even their children the commandments, Sermon on the Mount, do this in rembrance of Me, etc. "Faith alone" and I am saved. Everyone teaching what they believe to be true is chaos, and not how Jesus set up His church. There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Jesus left a church with authority and promised to be with it to the end of the age.

"I know of no one..." Perhaps you live a very sheltered life.

1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

My foundation is not the Catholic Church (thankfully--for it is a sinking ship), but my foundation is Jesus Christ, the solid Rock.

I go and not only "share" the gospel as you put it, but preach the gospel as the Lord commanded. I baptize those that are saved by the authority of Jesus Christ which he has given me, and in obedience to His command. If it is not I that baptizes, I delegate that responsibility to another pastor. Yes, the Great Commission is being carried out. If you are blind to these things, I am sorry.

Your refusal to believe Eph.2:8,9 that salvation is by faith alone, leaves you in grave danger of eternal damnation.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK, you say:

Your refusal to believe Eph.2:8,9 that salvation is by faith alone, leaves you in grave danger of eternal damnation.

My refusal to believe the doctrine of Sola Fide is not the same as refusing to believe Eph 2:8-8. I completely believe in salvation by grace through faith and that salvation is not a result of my own works. It is "faith alone" I don't believe in.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9


God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Yelsew:

But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age ." Matthew 28:16-20

Holy Scripture speaks for itself.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

God Bless

If it is not as a result of works, as you just quoted, then salvation is by faith alone, as the verse teaches. You must believe either one or the other.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

Salvation is by grace…....... not "faith alone". Faith saves, but not "faith alone". The faith St. Paul talks about is a faith working through love.

God Bless

[ May 19, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

(Quote by Kathryn)
Holy Scripture says Jesus was giving this commission to the 11, the
leaders, not the whole church and everyone who belonged to it.
Like I said, He had already given them His authority, keys, power to
forgive sins, etc. He built His church on the foundation stones of
the apostles with Him as the cornerstone and promised to be with it
to the end of the age. (Kathryn)

One question:

If the authority, keys, power to forgive sins, etc were only given to the 11,
and they've died; how is it that modern day Catholic Popes have those
powers...? Is this the supposed succession..?

 

[Kathryn]

If the authority, keys, power to forgive sins, etc were only given to the 11,
and they've died; how is it that modern day Catholic Popes have those
powers...? Is this the supposed succession..?

Yes.

 

[Singer]

(Quote Yelsew):

He Built his church on the truth that He, Jesus, IS the Son of God, The
Messiah. The church building consists of those who believe in Jesus and
have faith that Jesus is who he said he is.

If we confess Jesus before man, He will confess us before His Father in
Heaven. What is confessing Jesus before man? It is essentially the Gospel
message. How can we do that if we do not have the authority? (Yelsew)

Man ....that's some good preachin, Yelsew !!

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If the authority, keys, power to forgive sins, etc were only given to the 11,
and they've died; how is it that modern day Catholic Popes have those
powers...? Is this the supposed succession..?

Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]Another term that comes to mind is SHEER SPECULATION !!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Salvation is by grace…....... not "faith alone". Faith saves, but not "faith alone". The faith St. Paul talks about is a faith working through love.

God Bless

Comprenez vous Anglais??

I already explained this verse to you on page 5 of this thread. You ignored it then. If I repost it now will you ignore it again?

Love is not joined with faith in justification. That is not what is being taught here. Three times in the Bible does it say that the just shall live by faith. More than once does it refer to Abraham being justified by faith. Many times over does the Bible say that we are saved by faith. Don't stop at Gal.5:6, taking the verse out of context, but read down to Gal.5:14.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The fulfillment of the law is love. The fulfillment of the law was at the cross in Christ.
So all the law is fulfilled in Christ, and only by faith in Christ is one able to truly fulfill the law of Christ (which is love).
Salvation is by faith, and faith alone.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

He Built his church on the truth that He, Jesus, IS the Son of God, The
Messiah. The church building consists of those who believe in Jesus and
have faith that Jesus is who he said he is.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Jesus built his church on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, Ephesians 2:20

Luke 6:48
he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

If we confess Jesus before man, He will confess us before His Father in
Heaven. What is confessing Jesus before man? It is essentially the Gospel
message. How can we do that if we do not have the authority?

The Great Commission however is not about us confessing Jesus before man. We are commanded to do this elsewhere in the gospel, but it’s not the Great Commission to the eleven.

God Bless