Baptism and obedience

[Kathryn]

DHK:
Read in context what St. Paul teaches about salvation then read what James teaches about salvation and you should get an idea of the relationship of Faith, Hope, and Charity to salvation...all gifts from God and how we are saved by Grace. Faith saves, but not "faith alone". I do not agree with you that faith "working through love" is not the faith St. Paul is talking about. Faith, hope, and love are all gifts from God.

As St. Paul says put on your breastplate of faith and love, and helmet of hope of salvation. Christ working within us doing the will of the Father is nothing we can boast about...it is grace. Like I say St. Paul and St. James explain how it all works. Don't however just read one and not the other. They compliment each other, not contradict.

God Bless

P.S.

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:2

[ May 19, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

My foundation is not the Catholic Church (thankfully--for it is a sinking ship), but my
foundation is Jesus Christ, the solid Rock. (DHK)

1 Cor 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual rock
that followed them; and that Rock was Christ.

If Christ is the "ROCK" and Catholicism agrees, why do they need another
'rock' in Peter ?

 

[DHK]

Kathryn,
You are very confused in your application of Scripture. You cannot use Scripture addressed to and speaking about the Christian life, to explain salvation. 1Cor.13 is speaking about love and the spiritual gifts given to believers in Christ. It is not speaking of salvation at all. If I interpreted the Bible as you do I might as well say that the Bible teaches that "there is no God," and so it says that "there is no God,"

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

You interpret the Scriptures the same way.
Now get down to basics. Here is Eph.2:8,9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tell me the meaning of this verse without going to other Scriptures since you can't seem to discern which are written about the Christian life and which are written about salvation. Just stick to this one passage. Do you believe it or not. If you believe Eph.2:8,9, then explain what it means.
It doesn't say faith working through love. It says faith, and that not of yourselves. It says: not of works. What does this mean??
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

1 Cor 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual rock
that followed them; and that Rock was Christ.

If Christ is the "ROCK" and Catholicism agrees, why do they need another
'rock' in Peter ?

Because Jesus decided to leave His authority on earth in His church. The keys to the kingdom from the Old Testament where to signify the leaving of the authority of the king to his representative in his absence. That is what Jesus decided to do with His church. The apostles are the foundation and Jesus Christ Himself is the cornerstone. He is the rock and He changed Peters name to rock. He was going to heaven and was leaving His authority with promises to be with it to the end of time. Interestingly, when God changes peoples name in the Bible it is for a big change, not just as little nicknames. Abram to Abraham, and Saul to Paul are examples. It means God has plans.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
There is no God.


(Singer)

Another verse ( out of context) would tell us to follow Paul

1 Cor 11 : 1

"Be ye followers of me" (Paul speaking)

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:

The apostles are the foundation

1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Kathryn]

DHK: I already have done this. You just don't like my answer. I will repost it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your refusal to believe Eph.2:8,9 that salvation is by faith alone, leaves you in grave danger of eternal damnation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My refusal to believe the doctrine of Sola Fide is not the same as refusing to believe Eph 2:8-8. I completely believe in salvation by grace through faith and that salvation is not a result of my own works. It is "faith alone" I don't believe in.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Like I said before, read what St. Paul and St. James explain about salvation in context. It is a couple of chapters, but they agree with each other and you don't have to count how many times one says something versus how many times another says something, and discard one as being wrong. It is all true. They both agree that salvation is by grace.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

The apostles are the foundation


1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the foundation. He made it that way, no man.

God Bless


P.S.
"And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Revelation 21:14

 

[Carson Weber]

For those who are interested in the Catholic doctrine of justification:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:

Like I said before, read what St. Paul and St. James explain about salvation in context. It is a couple of chapters, but they agree with each other and you don't have to count how many times one says something versus how many times another says something, and discard one as being wrong. It is all true. They both agree that salvation is by grace.

You really contradict yourself and demonstrate your inability to discern which Scriptures are speaking of salvation and which are speaking of Christian living.
James is a book which is speaking of practical Christian living. He is not discussing salvation when in James 2, he discusses the topic of works. Thus, so many quote James out of context.

On the other hand Paul writes a book on soteriology. It is a treatise on the theme of salvation. It is Paul that says that a man is saved by faith alone, even if he doesn't use the word "alone," the doctrine is still there.

Rom.4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham believed God. What did he do? Nothing! He had faith. Faith alone. That is all. Faith alone was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now if you work for your salvation then your salvation is not of grace but of debt. God's salvation is not that way. It is all of grace.

But to him that does absolutely no work at all, but simply accepts salvation by faith and by faith alone, his faith is counted for righteousness. Because he believes on Him who justifies the ungodly. He believes, only believes, no work involved. That is called faith alone. That is what Eph.2:8,9 teaches.

Then Paul goes on to add in Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Forgiven without works!
Salvation without works!
What a blessing!
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The apostles are the foundation


1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the foundation. He made it that way, no man.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hey, I didn't write the Scripture! God did. I just quoted it. Take your argument up with Him.

 

[Carson Weber]

He is not discussing salvation when in James 2, he discusses the topic of works.

Did you guys hear that? I think I just heard James rolling over in his grave!

 

[Carson Weber]

Carson: Paul, what avails?

Paul: Well, Carson, "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).

Carson: I'm sorry, did you say... *ahem*.. "working"?

Paul: Why, yes I did.

 

[Kathryn]

DHK:

...discern which are written about the Christian life and which are written about salvation.

You separate Christian life from Salvation in order to come up with "faith alone". Salvation is Christ's life within me. They can not be separated. The gospel doesn't separate them either.

God Bless

 

[Carson Weber]

Salvation is Christ's life within me.

That would be, "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27).

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Gal 2:20).

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
He is not discussing salvation when in James 2, he discusses the topic of works.

Did you guys hear that? I think I just heard James rolling over in his grave!

And perhaps this is the very reason you do not understand the Word of God Carson. Mockery, and perhaps the same pharasaical attitude that those in Christ's time had. They knew better, didn't they? That's why they crucified Christ.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

James taught that works was an outcome of his faith. That teaching is very plain here. The theme of the book is practical Christian living. If you don't keep that in focus, you will become confused. Even so, the passage is clear. Works is the outcome of the believers faith; it is not a prerequisite of the believers faith. It is the result, the outcome. You have it backwards.
DHK

 

[Carson Weber]

James taught that works was an outcome of his faith. That teaching is very plain here.

We have no disagreement over this simple and clear point.

Even so, the passage is clear. Works is the outcome of the believers faith; it is not a prerequisite of the believers faith. It is the result, the outcome. You have it backwards.

No, actually DHK, the strawman that you've constructed has it backwards. I agree with you.

I also agree with the rest of what James says, without having to downplay or twist his arguments.

Works, which follow faith and which are the outcome of faith, complete faith and therefore, since the works are inseparably bound up with the faith, which they express, works justify - that is, faith working in love.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works" (James 2:22)

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)

You recognize half of what James affirms, but you reject the second half of what James affirms.

Why not accept all of what Scripture affirms?

That's right.. if you did, then you would (1) Lose your Sola Fide battlecry, (2) Lose face, (3) Have to admit that the Bible, I mean, Catholics are right, and (4) stop jumping through Scriptural hoops.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
You separate Christian life from Salvation in order to come up with "faith alone". Salvation is Christ's life within me. They can not be separated. The gospel doesn't separate them either.
God Bless

Yes salvation is a one time event, not an on-going process as you suggest. I was saved only once.

I am married. It happened once in my life. The ceremony is still not going on today. I became a part of the bride of Christ when I was saved. It happened once. It is still not going on in my life toay.

I was born into this world once. I am not still in the process of being born. {That would be painful to my mother). I was born again--once. Only one time in my history was I born into God's family. I became His child. It is not a process. I am not continually being born or becoming His child.

Salvation is not a process. When a person is drowning in the midst of the sea, and calls out, "Help, save me!!" He hopes for help immediately to jerk him out of the water and put him on safe ground. The last thing he would want is someone to tell him, "In order for me to pull you out of the raging sea, it will take the rest of your breathing life for it is an on-going process that cannot be completed until you have finally taken your last breath, then I can finally save you. That is Roman Catholic salvation. And even then it falls short.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

Roman Catholic salvation is having Christ within me...His saving grace.

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Gal 2:20).

God Bless

 

[Carson Weber]

Round Two: DHK vs. the Bible.. *ding, ding, ding*

DHK: salvation is a one time event, not an on-going process

Bible: "As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9).

"salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11)

I was born into this world once. I am not still in the process of being born. {That would be painful to my mother). I was born again--once. Only one time in my history was I born into God's family. I became His child. It is not a process.

Ah.. yes, you were reborn in Christ as a child of God, but guess what? You now have the task of growing as a child of God as your conform your life to that of Christ, and this growth in Christ is the continuing of your salvation.

The Council of Trent defined our justification as our divine sonship. It's that simple. And, as children of God, we grow in divine sonship as we are conformed to his image (Rom 8:29).

I am not continually being born or becoming His child.

But you are continually growing as a child of God.

Salvation is not a process. When a person is drowning in the midst of the sea, and calls out, "Help, save me!!" He hopes for help immediately to jerk him out of the water and put him on safe ground.

But, you aren't completely on safe ground until you've been made sinless. Christ came to save us from our sin, and this includes the arduous process of sanctification, which is our being made holy.