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Baptism and obedience
- Thread starter thessalonian
- Start date
Y
Yelsew
Guest
If he has faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah He will be saved.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
btw, I am not at all convinced that the works in eph. 2:10 are in regards to Mosaic Law.
Brian, in all seriousness, you should really read What Did St. Paul Really Say? (click here). I'm not kidding - N.T. Wright is fun to read, and he's at the very top in contemporary NT Biblical scholarship. I enjoy him immensely.
Aside from that, even if Paul is speaking of morality in Eph 2:9, that would - in no way - contradict Catholic doctrine. I'm just pointing out a truth that I've discovered in my study of the Pauline corpus, which makes Paul - in my estimation - better understood and more readable.. according to his mindset, situation, and religious paradigm.
Also, I just read this in Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which - in my estimation - is a wonderful synthesis:
"That is why the Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to be good. They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one; or - if they think there is not - at least they hope to deserve approval from good men. But the Christian thinks any good he does comes from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us; just as the roof of a greenhouse does not attract the sun because it is bright, but becomes bright because the sun shines on it."
[ May 21, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Brian, in all seriousness, you should really read What Did St. Paul Really Say? (click here). I'm not kidding - N.T. Wright is fun to read, and he's at the very top in contemporary NT Biblical scholarship. I enjoy him immensely.
Aside from that, even if Paul is speaking of morality in Eph 2:9, that would - in no way - contradict Catholic doctrine. I'm just pointing out a truth that I've discovered in my study of the Pauline corpus, which makes Paul - in my estimation - better understood and more readable.. according to his mindset, situation, and religious paradigm.
Also, I just read this in Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which - in my estimation - is a wonderful synthesis:
"That is why the Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to be good. They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one; or - if they think there is not - at least they hope to deserve approval from good men. But the Christian thinks any good he does comes from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us; just as the roof of a greenhouse does not attract the sun because it is bright, but becomes bright because the sun shines on it."
[ May 21, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Give me that old time religion;
It is good enough for me.
It was good for Paul and Silas
And it is good enough for me."
Discovering what St. Paul Really Said is precisely "that old time religion", which was good for Paul and Silas. This is precisely the aim of contemporary Biblical scholarship. So, your point is...?
It is good enough for me.
It was good for Paul and Silas
And it is good enough for me."
Discovering what St. Paul Really Said is precisely "that old time religion", which was good for Paul and Silas. This is precisely the aim of contemporary Biblical scholarship. So, your point is...?
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
contemporary Biblical scholarship, as I know it, is just a code word for liberal and apostate.
Well, perhaps an education is in order for yourself, DHK. Because, contemporary means "occurring or existing at the same time", and this means that the qualifier contemporary bespeaks of the present. According to your definition, all present Biblical scholarship is apostate. Is this the case?
I would certainly hope not.
Well, perhaps an education is in order for yourself, DHK. Because, contemporary means "occurring or existing at the same time", and this means that the qualifier contemporary bespeaks of the present. According to your definition, all present Biblical scholarship is apostate. Is this the case?
I would certainly hope not.
I don't think a game of semantics is necessary. However modernism is certainly not modern. It is liberalism at its worst, totally unbiblical if not anti-biblical.
Higher Criticism--does not hold to a high standard except to deny the Bible wherever they can. They are highly skilfull at that. This group also includes modernists.
In the realm of music, all CCM, is not contemporary any more is it? In fact there are some good "old-fashioned hymns" being written today.
DHK
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Contemporary does not have to mean that Carson. For it to mean that, Contemporary must be modified by words that qualify which time. For example, saying that Hitler and Eisenhower were contemporaries does not mean that they are in the present, but rather that they were of the same time regardless of when that time was or is. Whereas, Saddam Houssein and George Bush are modern contemporaries, with 'modern' being the modifier for contemporaries and specifying currency.
In the example you were correcting, contemporary modifies Biblical Scholarship. Meaning that the biblical scholarship could occur at any timeframe the author had in mind. However, since no specific relating to time was given it is accepted that the present time is when the biblical scholarship is or has taken place as you stated.
My point is that "Contemporary" does not translate to "present".
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Contemporary must be modified by words that qualify which time.
Absolutely not. When used without such a qualifier, contemporary refers to the present period. If not, then it's pretty pointless to say "contemporary", because it could mean "at any time". Words mean things, and to make the point that contemporary can mean anything without a qualifier is pointless, because it makes out my use of "contemporary" to be pointless - for it means essentially nothing.
Perhaps you would prefer the full Merriam-Webster definition?
contemporary \ken-tem-pe-rer-e\ adj 1 : occurring or existing at the same time 2 : marked by characteristics of the present period contemporary n
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
You assert that "contemporary does not translate to present", and the dictionary disagrees with your assertion.
Absolutely not. When used without such a qualifier, contemporary refers to the present period. If not, then it's pretty pointless to say "contemporary", because it could mean "at any time". Words mean things, and to make the point that contemporary can mean anything without a qualifier is pointless, because it makes out my use of "contemporary" to be pointless - for it means essentially nothing.
Perhaps you would prefer the full Merriam-Webster definition?
contemporary \ken-tem-pe-rer-e\ adj 1 : occurring or existing at the same time 2 : marked by characteristics of the present period contemporary n
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
You assert that "contemporary does not translate to present", and the dictionary disagrees with your assertion.
Hi Carson, These are some commentaries on Eph. 2:10 They do support what I have said. No commentaries that I checked supported your mosaic law conclusion. I need to do more checking but did not want to leave you hanging. I hope to respond more later or tomorrow.
In Christ, Brian
J, F, B :
10. workmanship--literally, "a thing of His making"; "handiwork." Here the spiritual creation, not the physical, is referred to (Eph 2:8, 9).
created--having been created (Eph 4:24; Ps 102:18; Isa 43:21; 2Co 5:5, 17).
unto good works--"for good works." "Good works" cannot be performed until we are new "created unto" them. Paul never calls the works of the law "good works." We are not saved by, but created unto, good works.
before ordained--Greek, "before made ready" (compare Joh 5:36). God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand, the particular good works, and the time and way which tie sees best. God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance (Joh 15:16; 2Ti 2:21).
that we should walk in them--not "be saved" by them. Works do not justify, but the justified man works (Ga 5:22-25).
Johnson: 9. Not of works. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting. 10. For we are his workmanship. It is God who saved us; as new creatures, he had made us through the gospel. We are not saved by works, but are his workmanship, created unto good works, designed henceforth to abound in them. Which God hath before ordained. It is his ordination that all who believe the gospel and are saved should practice good works. God has graciously quickened us, saved us, made us new creatures, and prepared us unto good works.
Adam Clarke
Verse 10. For we are his workmanship
So far is this salvation from being our own work, or granted for our own works' sake, that we are ourselves not only the creatures of God, but our new creation was produced by his power; for we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. He has saved us that we may show forth the virtues of Him who called us from darkness into his marvellous light. For though we are not saved for our good works, yet we are saved that we may perform good works, to the glory of God and the benefit of man.
In Christ, Brian
J, F, B :
10. workmanship--literally, "a thing of His making"; "handiwork." Here the spiritual creation, not the physical, is referred to (Eph 2:8, 9).
created--having been created (Eph 4:24; Ps 102:18; Isa 43:21; 2Co 5:5, 17).
unto good works--"for good works." "Good works" cannot be performed until we are new "created unto" them. Paul never calls the works of the law "good works." We are not saved by, but created unto, good works.
before ordained--Greek, "before made ready" (compare Joh 5:36). God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand, the particular good works, and the time and way which tie sees best. God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance (Joh 15:16; 2Ti 2:21).
that we should walk in them--not "be saved" by them. Works do not justify, but the justified man works (Ga 5:22-25).
Johnson: 9. Not of works. The salvation is not due to works of law, or to our own merit; hence there is no ground for boasting. 10. For we are his workmanship. It is God who saved us; as new creatures, he had made us through the gospel. We are not saved by works, but are his workmanship, created unto good works, designed henceforth to abound in them. Which God hath before ordained. It is his ordination that all who believe the gospel and are saved should practice good works. God has graciously quickened us, saved us, made us new creatures, and prepared us unto good works.
Adam Clarke
Verse 10. For we are his workmanship
So far is this salvation from being our own work, or granted for our own works' sake, that we are ourselves not only the creatures of God, but our new creation was produced by his power; for we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. He has saved us that we may show forth the virtues of Him who called us from darkness into his marvellous light. For though we are not saved for our good works, yet we are saved that we may perform good works, to the glory of God and the benefit of man.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
No commentaries that I checked supported your mosaic law conclusion.
I've given you N.T. Wright, E.P. Sanders, and Dunn.
And, I've also already said that if Paul was speaking of "good works" in the sense of charity, this in no way contradicts Catholic doctrine.
So, there's really no purpose in continuing the discussion except for a better understanding of Paul.
I've given you N.T. Wright, E.P. Sanders, and Dunn.
And, I've also already said that if Paul was speaking of "good works" in the sense of charity, this in no way contradicts Catholic doctrine.
So, there's really no purpose in continuing the discussion except for a better understanding of Paul.
And...not to sidetrack the issue any further, but just to show the true definition of the word....I give you .....
And, for those of us that do not know how to use a dictionary....the higher numbers are less common defintions than the lower numbers. So, if you are staking your reputation on a #2, when a #1 proves someone else's point...uhm...you are in some trouble.
In Christ,
jason
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Thank YOU Jason!
Hey Carson:
Your comments about Eph. 2:9,10 are correct. The context of Epheisans 2 is, indeed, a reference to both meritorious works and works of the old law.
In verse 9, Paul says, " not of works lest any man should boast." In other words, works of man's device. It also excludes works of the Jewish law as it was taken out of the way by the better covenant.
J. W. Shepherd put it succinctly when he said in his commentary " not of the works of Jewish law, or by any works of man's invention."
Your comments about Eph. 2:9,10 are correct. The context of Epheisans 2 is, indeed, a reference to both meritorious works and works of the old law.
In verse 9, Paul says, " not of works lest any man should boast." In other words, works of man's device. It also excludes works of the Jewish law as it was taken out of the way by the better covenant.
J. W. Shepherd put it succinctly when he said in his commentary " not of the works of Jewish law, or by any works of man's invention."
Carson, I think it does matter to your doctrine what the "good works" are. I am saying that a person MUST BE CREATED before he can do the "good works" here which directly counterdicts the idea of being justified by works. You believe that works justify people before God. I believe this verse speaks contrary to that. This verse says that salvation (justification comes first). Many great Bible scholars obviously agree with me.
You of course have Frank on your side, which evens things up.
If you want to drop this we can, I firmly believe the Bible teaches justification before God is from faith only because God knows our heart, we do not have to "prove" anything to Him. As for those watching us in the world, now that is a different subject, and the true place where "works justification" comes in to play.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
You of course have Frank on your side, which evens things up.
If you want to drop this we can, I firmly believe the Bible teaches justification before God is from faith only because God knows our heart, we do not have to "prove" anything to Him. As for those watching us in the world, now that is a different subject, and the true place where "works justification" comes in to play.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
Briguy:
There are two types of works in view of salvation. One is the works of man. The second, the works appointed by God.
The Jews believed in a works doctrine that excluded gentiles. They used circumcision, animal sacrifices and ceremonial cleansings as a way to exclude others from the blessings of God. Jesus many times rebuked them for doing so. Mat. 15:6-9.
The second group of works are those appointed of God. John 6:28-30. The works of God are those of faithful obedience to HIS WORD. In other words, they EXCLUDE MAN'S INVENTIONS. Proverbs 14:12.
The system of faith puts all men on equal footing at the foot of the cross. God will save all those who render faithful obedience to the word that saves. James 1:18,21, Hebrews 5:8,9, Romans 6:17,18. Paul said in Gal. 3:26-29," For we are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither bond nor free; there is neither male nor female.
Ye are all one in Christ. And, if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:26-29. See also Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16; 18:8; 8:12-18; 2;38; 16:30-33; 8:30-40,19:1-6, James 2:21-24, Romans 4: 1-4.
There are two types of works in view of salvation. One is the works of man. The second, the works appointed by God.
The Jews believed in a works doctrine that excluded gentiles. They used circumcision, animal sacrifices and ceremonial cleansings as a way to exclude others from the blessings of God. Jesus many times rebuked them for doing so. Mat. 15:6-9.
The second group of works are those appointed of God. John 6:28-30. The works of God are those of faithful obedience to HIS WORD. In other words, they EXCLUDE MAN'S INVENTIONS. Proverbs 14:12.
The system of faith puts all men on equal footing at the foot of the cross. God will save all those who render faithful obedience to the word that saves. James 1:18,21, Hebrews 5:8,9, Romans 6:17,18. Paul said in Gal. 3:26-29," For we are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither bond nor free; there is neither male nor female.
Ye are all one in Christ. And, if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:26-29. See also Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16; 18:8; 8:12-18; 2;38; 16:30-33; 8:30-40,19:1-6, James 2:21-24, Romans 4: 1-4.