Baptism, David Pawson, Sacrament

[phaipola]

Water baptism

When we think of water baptism, the most important thing to know is, whether it is necessary for salvation or not. There are basically two presentations of baptism and its importance to Christians: [1] "the baptismal regeneration" and "an event of salvation through baptism", and [2] "the outward sign of an inward work of God/ change of heart/ regeneration".

Depending on how we see baptism and salvation makes us put more or less weight on it. If you believe that one cannot be saved unless he or she is baptized in the water in the name of Christ Jesus, then you emphasize water baptism a lot in your preaching, teaching and spreading the good news of Christ. If you think that salvation is not needed for salvation, you put only a little weight on baptism, and preach the cross of Christ instead of baptism. Both are included in bearing witness of Jesus, but the crucial part of the Gospel or the Gospel itself is either one, not both. You will see this in a moment, if you read this document further.

If the birth of a new person (Christian birth) or eternal salvation is dependant on water baptism, then one should be baptized promptly in order to be born again from above and be saved. If water baptism is not needed for salvation, why do we then baptize people? This will be answered in the second part of this paper.

http://www.inri.fi/eng/Water-baptism.pdf

This article is an abstract of my 10 year study on this issue.

 

[matt wade]

Welcome to the BB.

Honestly, I'm not going to go off and read your 10 page PDF. So, what's your verdict? Is Baptism necessary for salvation or not?

 

[plain_n_simple]

Jesus said to get baptized. Argue with Him.

 

[preachinjesus]

Baptists historically have made the important distinction between a sacrament and ordinance. We, baptists, are not sacramental and never should consider a sacramental theology as it asserts a soteriological assertion on the two ordinances not found in Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

I once saw a cutaway baptistry on the wall of a Church of Christ in TN. :laugh: I always figured if I believed in baptismal regeneration like they do I'd get a pickup, put a baptistry in back and go out on baptism evangelism. Otherwise people are headed for Hell just because they couldn't get to the church on time! When you think about it, it just makes no sense that you have to have a ceremony/ordinance to be saved.

 

[Amy.G]

I once saw a cutaway baptistry on the wall of a Church of Christ in TN. :laugh: I always figured if I believed in baptismal regeneration like they do I'd get a pickup, put a baptistry in back and go out on baptism evangelism. Otherwise people are headed for Hell just because they couldn't get to the church on time! When you think about it, it just makes no sense that you have to have a ceremony/ordinance to be saved.

My mother once told me about her grandmother who was COC. Someone asked her if a person got saved on Sunday morning, but baptism wasn't until Sunday night, and the person got hit by a car and died before he could get baptized that night, would he go to hell, and she said "yes".

Unbelievable.

 

[John of Japan]

My mother once told me about her grandmother who was COC. Someone asked her if a person got saved on Sunday morning, but baptism wasn't until Sunday night, and the person got hit by a car and died before he could get baptized that night, would he go to hell, and she said "yes".

Unbelievable.

That's just wrong, both Biblically and morally. If someone is headed for Hell, you do what you can to rescue them.

If baptism is the way, have the pool heated up and ready to go all times of the day or night. What if someone on their death bed calls you wanting to repent? You'd better drag them down to the church for baptism.

 

[Zenas]

My mother once told me about her grandmother who was COC. Someone asked her if a person got saved on Sunday morning, but baptism wasn't until Sunday night, and the person got hit by a car and died before he could get baptized that night, would he go to hell, and she said "yes".

Unbelievable.

Won't happen in a Church of Christ. Whenever anyone is saved at a service they are baptized on the spot. If they are saved between services, the candidate is taken directly to the church and baptized. In the CoC, all adult men are allowed to baptize so you don't have to round up the pastor (or minister as they call him).

 

[Tom Butler]

"phaipola, welcome to the Baptist Board.

Two requests: One, go up to the very top of the first page to "Welcome to the Baptist Board.com" and introduce yourself. Tell us something about you, and let us give you a proper welcome.

Second, read the rules. Your profile says you are a "former Baptist." That means you may not post in this forum or any other forum marked Baptist only. The moderator may move this thread to "Other Christian Denominations," where you may post to your heart's content.

I hope you will enjoy your time here.

 

[Amy.G]

Won't happen in a Church of Christ. Whenever anyone is saved at a service they are baptized on the spot. If they are saved between services, the candidate is taken directly to the church and baptized. In the CoC, all adult men are allowed to baptize so you don't have to round up the pastor (or minister as they call him).

In those days it's doubtful if there was a baptistery in the church house. They would have gone to the creek. But the point is that my great grandmother (who died before I was born) believed a person could receive Christ as Savior and still go to hell, having not been baptized.

 

[JesusFan]

Baptists historically have made the important distinction between a sacrament and ordinance. We, baptists, are not sacramental and never should consider a sacramental theology as it asserts a soteriological assertion on the two ordinances not found in Scripture.

This is correct!

water baptism from the Baptist perspective is to be seen as a sign/symbol.
It is representing before man that the the person was saved by the Grace of God, in that it reflects/shows that the person identified/died with Christ uon His Cross, spiritually united in His death and resurrection to now unto Eternal life!

it is NOT required for salvation, not a sacramental means of Grace, but should be done in order to be obedient to the scriptures!

 

[JesusFan]

Won't happen in a Church of Christ. Whenever anyone is saved at a service they are baptized on the spot. If they are saved between services, the candidate is taken directly to the church and baptized. In the CoC, all adult men are allowed to baptize so you don't have to round up the pastor (or minister as they call him).

So they would view baptism as essential to being regenerated by God, as a sacramental means of Grace?

What happened to the thief on the Cross than?

No water, no heaven?

 

[Zenas]

So they would view baptism as essential to being regenerated by God, as a sacramental means of Grace?

What happened to the thief on the Cross than?

No water, no heaven?

They don't view it as sacramental, i.e., as a conduit of grace and, to the best of my knowledge, they reject all sacraments. Rather, it is a matter of obedience. We are told to be baptized, and with passages such as Acts 2:38 and others, it's easy to infer that there is no forgiveness without baptism. But it's mostly a matter of obedience. If we don't obey the teachings of Christ, we can't go to Heaven.

They view the thief on the cross as something of an anomaly. It would be like the rules in my office. I have a hard and fast rule--no smoking allowed. It says so right near the front door. However, if someone comes in and says, "I would like to smoke," I have the right to give them permission because it's MY rule and I can let someone break it if I want to.

"No water, no heaven" seems to be their established belief, although I think they give a little leeway for someone for whom baptism is not possible. Nothing dogmatic, just the view that God can save you without baptism if in His grace He wants to.

 

[phaipola]

Welcome to the BB.

Honestly, I'm not going to go off and read your 10 page PDF. So, what's your verdict? Is Baptism necessary for salvation or not?

Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
It is good that you do not read long papers.
Then there is hope you will not read the book "The Normal Christian Birth" by David Pawson either.

 

[phaipola]

"phaipola, welcome to the Baptist Board.

Two requests: One, go up to the very top of the first page to "Welcome to the Baptist Board.com" and introduce yourself. Tell us something about you, and let us give you a proper welcome.

Second, read the rules. Your profile says you are a "former Baptist." That means you may not post in this forum or any other forum marked Baptist only. The moderator may move this thread to "Other Christian Denominations," where you may post to your heart's content.

I hope you will enjoy your time here.

There is no Baptist Church right there where I live. By denomination I am closer to Baptists and Pentacostals than Lutherans or Catholics. I believe that the body of Christ is one and should not be divided in denominations. That is why I prefer denoting myself a member of the body of Christ rather than Baptist or Pentecostal or something else.

 

[phaipola]

There is a list of recommended reading at the end of my paper. There are some interesting links for comments on John 3:3-8 there. It is not that obvious that Jesus was talking of water baptism there. Actually, water baptism was not an issue in this discussion with Nicodemus. But see for yourselves by having a look at the articles that I refer to.

http://www.inri.fi/eng/Water-baptism.pdf

Recommended reading
• Hadavar Messianic Ministries, You must be born again or Knowing God
• Reflections by Al Maxey, Born of Water and Spirit, Reflecting on the Statement by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:5
• Robert V. McCabe, THE MEANING OF “BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT” IN JOHN 3:5, DBSJ 4 (Fall 1999): 85–107
• Dokimos Org., Water baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation
• Douglas Nicholson, Last Trumpet Ministries Org Born again
• Rabbi Maurice Lamm, Why Immerse in the Mikveh?
• Anti-Nicene Fathers, Irenæus Against Heresies, Book III, XI.I. ("... whom [Jesus] they [Cerinthus etc.] represent as having passed through Mary just as water through a tube.")
• "...one who has become a proselyte is like a child newly born"... (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 22a, 48b and 97b)
• "For, surely, in respect of twin brothers, who originated in one drop that divided itself into two..." (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 98a)
• R. Eleazar further stated: What does an embryo resemble when it is in its mother's bowels? A nut floating in a bowl of water. Should someone put his finger upon it, it would sink on the one side or on the other. (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Niddah, 31 a)
• Be baptized, John 3
• THE JEWISH BACKGROUND OF CHRISTIAN BAPTISM BY Ron Moseley, Ph. D.
• Mystical Mikveh Immersion The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism by Ron Moseley, Ph. D.
• Enduring Word, John 3 – The New Birth
• Let Us Reason Ministries What does Jesus mean we must be Born of water and of Spirit
• scribd.com, Baptism (Roots, history, meaning of)
• Bible Truth website, The New Birth, Born of the Spirit
• Job Beresford, The Great Baptism Fiasco
• Pastor G. Reckard, Abrahamic Covenant Is It for Jews Only
• H.H. Chang, The meaning of baptism (series of articles)
• Alexander Hislop, Two Babylons, Chapter IV, Section I, Baptismal Regeneration
• Peter Hoover, The Secret of The Strength, Chapter 10, On to a New Life, Chapter 11, On to Baptism and Chapter 12, On to Commitment
• Lynn Jost, Mennonite Brethren Theology of Baptism (2004).

 

[JesusFan]

There is a list of recommended reading at the end of my paper. There are some interesting links for comments on John 3:3-8 there. It is not that obvious that Jesus was talking of water baptism there. Actually, water baptism was not an issue in this discussion with Nicodemus. But see for yourselves by having a look at the articles that I refer to.

http://www.inri.fi/eng/Water-baptism.pdf

Recommended reading
• Hadavar Messianic Ministries, You must be born again or Knowing God
• Reflections by Al Maxey, Born of Water and Spirit, Reflecting on the Statement by Jesus to Nicodemus in John 3:5
• Robert V. McCabe, THE MEANING OF “BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT” IN JOHN 3:5, DBSJ 4 (Fall 1999): 85–107
• Dokimos Org., Water baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation
• Douglas Nicholson, Last Trumpet Ministries Org Born again
• Rabbi Maurice Lamm, Why Immerse in the Mikveh?
• Anti-Nicene Fathers, Irenæus Against Heresies, Book III, XI.I. ("... whom [Jesus] they [Cerinthus etc.] represent as having passed through Mary just as water through a tube.")
• "...one who has become a proselyte is like a child newly born"... (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 22a, 48b and 97b)
• "For, surely, in respect of twin brothers, who originated in one drop that divided itself into two..." (Babylonian Talmud, Yebamoth 98a)
• R. Eleazar further stated: What does an embryo resemble when it is in its mother's bowels? A nut floating in a bowl of water. Should someone put his finger upon it, it would sink on the one side or on the other. (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Niddah, 31 a)
• Be baptized, John 3
• THE JEWISH BACKGROUND OF CHRISTIAN BAPTISM BY Ron Moseley, Ph. D.
• Mystical Mikveh Immersion The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism by Ron Moseley, Ph. D.
• Enduring Word, John 3 – The New Birth
• Let Us Reason Ministries What does Jesus mean we must be Born of water and of Spirit
• scribd.com, Baptism (Roots, history, meaning of)
• Bible Truth website, The New Birth, Born of the Spirit
• Job Beresford, The Great Baptism Fiasco
• Pastor G. Reckard, Abrahamic Covenant Is It for Jews Only
• H.H. Chang, The meaning of baptism (series of articles)
• Alexander Hislop, Two Babylons, Chapter IV, Section I, Baptismal Regeneration
• Peter Hoover, The Secret of The Strength, Chapter 10, On to a New Life, Chapter 11, On to Baptism and Chapter 12, On to Commitment
• Lynn Jost, Mennonite Brethren Theology of Baptism (2004).

Wasn't The Apostle relating/contrasting between that which was born physical and that which was born again by the HS? Through the agency of the water washing us being a term for the work of the scriptures in our lives?

 

[Allan]

So they would view baptism as essential to being regenerated by God, as a sacramental means of Grace?

What happened to the thief on the Cross than?

No water, no heaven?

I have 3 friends that are CoC pastors, and one has left the denomination after coming to the realization of some of their false teachings. They all will tell you they know of no one in their churches (pastors) believes and teaches that salvation is by faith alone, in sense we discuss it - They hold water baptism is essential as it is regenerative (brings life) and that which removes sin and the very point of ones salvations.

They would tell you.. No water - no heaven.

I was told to go here for a more concise understanding of Baptism and Church of Christ.. it even deals with the thief on the cross (and that there is more evidence for him being baptized than not)

 

[HankD]

Those who endorse water baptism as necessary for salvation make water ritually applied by a man more powerful to remove sin than the blood of the Son of God.

Would the following verse be applicable?

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

No blood, no heaven.

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

Those who endorse water baptism as necessary for salvation make water ritually applied by a man more powerful to remove sin than the blood of the Son of God.

Would the following verse be applicable?

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

No blood, no heaven.

HankD​

Apostle paul quotes the OT in that "the Just shall live by faith"....

Gospel says that those who reject the Son of God, believe not in Him, are damned already, judgement of God upon them...

Those who do not believe unto jesus are already judged/lost, NOT those who refuse to get water baptised!

Did jesus ever baptise anyone?
paul said that he had done a "few"...

Would think both of them would have had more to do and say if was essential to get saved!