Baptism method and meaning across denominations

[kyredneck]

Good question Kyred....but the writer to Hebrews 9 beat me to it....read the whole chapter as He explains how Jesus is the fulfillment as our great High priest.

K. I'm missing the 'water' connection you make between Heb 9 and Jn 3:5. Is this it?:

19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, Heb 9

I like the YLT for Jn 3:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
7 Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` YLT

I waffle between 'born of water, even the Spirit'

...and

'born of water (of the word, i.e. the gospel) and the Spirit'

IMO, both of these renderings jibe with the same OT passages (like Ezek 36).

It's clear that 'born from above' and 'born of the Spirit are synonymous.

Before one can 'see' the kingdom one must first be born of the Spirit.

Before one can 'enter' the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit.

[add]

Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith (Edersheim's view) in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, i.e., entering into the kingdom. (Conforming to the type of those redeemed from Egypt had to believe the gospel and act in order to enter into His rest)

 

[unprofitable]

The new covenant ordinance of baptism given to the church/kingdom coming forth or being revealed was practiced by John and the servants of Christ in the same manner as it was administered to Christ, full immersion. His example was the express evidence/pattern needed for the scriptural church to continue its practice and obey the ordinances/commandments given to it by its savior.

The true church has been promised by Christ that whatsoever they ask in his name in the context of the edifying of the body of Christ as a kingdom/nation he would give it/show it/reveal it to them. (Jn 14:13) (Eph 3:10) Also reference Gen 18:17-19)

The ordinance of baptism was initiated to bring the old covenant brethren into the new covenant just as the individual is brought into covenant relationship with the church. It was evidence of repentance from the dead works taught by the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. By entering into the new covenant, they would have/show evidence of a clear conscience toward God knowing that only the blood of Christ, and not of bulls and goats, could take away sins.

What of any of the above can an infant do, know, be a witness of or repent from?

The little ones are "of such" or "likened to." This verse is speaking of the apostles as babes in Christ who could only take the milk and not the meat concerning the new covenant/kingdom of God and does not mean 4 or 5 year olds doing the will of the Father

 

[ntchristian]

That is also different than sprinkling babies.

I know.

 

[Cathode]

Yet when the New Testament talks about water baptism, it is immersion. That is what we go by, that is the model, that is the mandate.

No, you only assume immersion. When people were baptised in their houses, they didn’t have a river running through their houses.

You assume that infants weren’t baptised as well. Tell me where infants were specifically refused baptism in Scripture.

Infants were always baptised in Church history, from the first century till today.

 

[Reformed1689]

No, you only assume immersion. When people were baptised in their houses, they didn’t have a river running through their houses.

You assume that infants weren’t baptised as well. Tell me where infants were specifically refused baptism in Scripture.

Infants were always baptised in Church history, from the first century till today.

Catholic hogwash

 

[Cathode]

Catholic hogwash

The only real debate that took place between the early Churches was whether infants should be baptised immediately or on the 8th day in line with Jewish custom of circumcision.
They decided as soon as possible.

I don’t know why you are hung up on immersion vs other methods, this seems the most superfluous of objections considering you don’t believe Baptism does anything anyway.

 

[Cathode]

Thanks for replying Cathode. My thoughts on John's Baptism in Mt 3:

"Baptize (“baptisei”) with the Holy Spirit and fire" are opposites (he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn), the first was being 'clothed with power from on high' and the latter signifying vengeance poured out from on high. Wind, water, are indeed common metaphors or symbols for the Spirit. Fire, on the other hand, is by far and away primarily the metaphor/symbol most commonly used for the wrath of God.

Well the context of the scripture I used was not one of punishment but the pouring out of the Spirit bringing the gifts of The Holy Spirit.

 

[Cathode]

Actually, the Didache did allow for pouring, as a secondary mode when immersion could not be done.

"Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit..."

But, as you point out, the Didache is not canonical.

It doesn’t have to be canonical to be Apostolic, it can just be contemporary at the time of the Apostles.
The Church had many things handed on in custom and tradition from the Apostles that weren’t written.

 

[Cathode]

Except they are not innocent.

So how are babies and mentally disabled saved if they can’t do the work of a profession of Faith?

For Catholic’s we say the parents or guardians make the profession of Faith for them, since they have authority and care over them.

 

[Reformed1689]

So how are babies and mentally disabled saved if they can’t do the work of a profession of Faith?

For Catholic’s we say the parents or guardians make the profession of Faith for them, since they have authority and care over them.

HERESY

 

[Cathode]

HERESY

Oh come on mate, tell us a story.

 

[Marooncat79]

The only real debate that took place between the early Churches was whether infants should be baptised immediately or on the 8th day in line with Jewish custom of circumcision.
They decided as soon as possible.

I don’t know why you are hung up on immersion vs other methods, this seems the most superfluous of objections considering you don’t believe Baptism does anything anyway.

That depends on what you mean by early.

 

[Marooncat79]

Early issues included:

the Canon

Baptism (discussed here in many threads)

Gnosticism (I John, Colossians)

Sola Fide (Galatians and Romans)

the Resurrection of the body (I Corinthians, Romans, and I Thess)

actually, these and many other issues are discussed in more Biblical books than I mentioned

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Oh come on mate, tell us a story.

By Baptist standards it is. Live with it.

 

[Reformed1689]

By Baptist standards it is. Live with it.

Correction, by BIBLICAL standards.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Correction, by BIBLICAL standards.

That too.

 

[ntchristian]

No, you only assume immersion. When people were baptised in their houses, they didn’t have a river running through their houses.

You assume that infants weren’t baptised as well. Tell me where infants were specifically refused baptism in Scripture.

Infants were always baptised in Church history, from the first century till today.

Actually, there is not one instance of infant baptism in the NT or early church, including the Didache. Thus, infant baptism is a mere "tradition of men".

 

[Reformed1689]

For Catholic’s we say the parents or guardians make the profession of Faith for them, since they have authority and care over them.

And how is this biblical?

 

[Salty]

The only real debate that ...

Okay, Cathode
Very simple tell us 1) how you believe all what a person must to go to Heaven & 2) and is it possible for him to loose that salvation

 

[Cathode]

Okay, Cathode
Very simple tell us 1) how you believe all what a person must to go to Heaven & 2) and is it possible for him to loose that salvation

If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.

Those who break the Commandments will loose their salvation.

Those who don’t love God and love their neighbour as themselves aren’t regenerated new people in Christ. They are still the old man

The fruit of regeneration is first of all Love, and a great ecosystem of Love forms around those regenerated in Christ Jesus.

Because Love is Eternal, it’s effects go out from the regenerated in time and then into Eternity.

You have got to have both Faith and Love, Love is the greater of the two.