Baptism prior to the 1520s

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
It's obvious to me that you do not think confession is required. It's obvious you do not think repentance is required either since these verses do not mention them either.

When one believes he confesses. Do you, or do you not, believe that Jesus alone is the way to Heaven? (John 14:6)

You did not show how one "obeys the gospel". You did not show how one obeys the death, burial and resurrection.

I did. Do you, or do you not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven? (John 3:16)

It is true the verse you quoted do not include the word baptism. I believe and accept every one of them. They are all in perfect harmony with Mark 16:16 which does say that he that believeth and is baptized will be saved.

It also says: "he that believeth not shall be condemned." No mention of baptism there; only unbelief. Do you, or do you not, belief that Jesus is the only way to Heaven? (John 3:16)

I Pet 3:21 tells us baptism saves us. These verses still are in the bible whether or not you like it or believe them.

No it doesn't say that baptism saves it. You have only quoted a part of a verse. Psalm 14:1 says "there is no God." Is this your theology?
1Pet.3:21 says,
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
--Sure missed a lot didn't you??
The first thing you missed is "The like figure whereunto" Peter specifically indicates that it is a figure, a symbol, a similie, a figure of speech. Baptism doesn't save. He is using symbolic language and specifically says so at the beginning of the verse. The latter part of the verse tells us what does save: Jesus Christ, by His resurrection.

I have shown a logical explaination of how one obeys the gospel, yet you cannot do that because it will include baptism.

Contrary. You have shown a heretical belief, and ignored Scripture. You have taken Scripture out of context and tried to make mean something other than what it really means.

Show me through the scriptures how one obeys the gospel.

Show me through the scriptures how one gets INTO Christ.
Thank you.

I have shown you many times already.
Again I will repeat it:

I will reiterate what I have said before. Paul clearly defines what the gospel is:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

In verse one Paul says this is the gospel which I declare unto you.
In verse two Paul says, it is by this gospel that you are saved.
In verses three and four he defines what the gospel is--the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, according to the Scriptures. Nowhere does this gospel include baptism.
In fact Paul clearly states that baptism is not important. In his missionary journeys Paul did not baptize, or did it very little, as is indicated by the first chapter of this epistle:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

It is evident from this verse that baptism has nothing to do with the gospel that saves. Paul did not baptize, but rather preached the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is that message that saves, and that message alone. Then he emphasized that any other "gospel" or message that was preached was a false gospel, and the consequences of preaching such were severe.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was serious. If your gospel contains works; if it contains baptism; then you are accursed of God. This is not my message. I am but the messenger of God. This is what God's Word says.

The answer to your question of obedience is simply to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. Salvation is a matter of faith and faith alone. The gospel is defined above. If one changes it to fit their own theology they are accursed of God.
DHK

 

[mman]

It's so simple I'll state it again.

II Thes 1:8 states that God will take vengence on those that do not "obey the gospel". How does one OBEY the gospel? How does one obey the death, burial and resurrection (Gospel)? Paul answers that clearly in Rom 6:3-4.

Can you explain another way to obey the gospel? You list scriptures but cannot logically show how one obeys the gospel. Here is another verse for you, John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The Corinthian church was divided. That's why Paul was glad that he had not baptized more than he did, because it is wrong to follow after men. It's wrong to have division (denominations teaching different things). Paul did in fact baptize some of the Corinthians. If the gospel did not contain baptism, why then did he baptize some of them(I Cor 1:14)? You have not addressed this question.

Would someone use the scriptures to show me how to obey the gospel, other than what I have described?

Would someone use the scriptures and show me how to get INTO Christ in any method other than baptism? Surely nobody here believes that you can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

The simple fact is that Philip preached Jesus and the next thing out of the Eunuch's mouth was a question about water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). The gospel is the good news about Jesus. Philips' preaching of the gospel included water baptism and the Eunuch obeyed the gospel (as described in Rom 6:3-4) and we are not to preach any other gospel (Gal 1:8). So, if you are preaching another gospel that does not include baptism, you are preaching a different gospel than Philip.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
It's so simple I'll state it again.

II Thes 1:8 states that God will take vengence on those that do not "obey the gospel". How does one OBEY the gospel? How does one obey the death, burial and resurrection (Gospel)? Paul answers that clearly in Rom 6:3-4.

If you do not believe the gospel as presented in 1Cor.15:1-4, which Paul states is the gospel by which one is saved, then Paul also states you believe in another gospel and are thus accursed. Not my words, but the Bible's.

Rom.6:3,4 do not explain the gospel. They explain the meaning of a beleiver's baptism. The believer is baptized. The believer shows in his baptism that he is now dead to his old life to sin and now rises again to live a new life in Christ. It is a picture--purely symbolically. What does the waters of baptism do? It gets you wet, and provides a picture; a symbolic picture.

Can you explain another way to obey the gospel? You list scriptures but cannot logically show how one obeys the gospel. Here is another verse for you, John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Did you deliberately misquote this verse??

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--The only way to obey is to believe. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Never does it say to be baptized in order to be saved. If you think it does you are reading the verse wrong.

The Corinthian church was divided. That's why Paul was glad that he had not baptized more than he did, because it is wrong to follow after men. It's wrong to have division (denominations teaching different things). Paul did in fact baptize some of the Corinthians. If the gospel did not contain baptism, why then did he baptize some of them(I Cor 1:14)? You have not addressed this question.

Paul did baptize some of them, when he first started the church. But it was only a few, and he thanks God that it was only a few. He clearly says that his mission was not to baptize but to preach the gospel drawing a clear distinction between baptism and the gospel. If you say that baptism is a part of the gospel you contradict Paul and count yourself as one of the accursed.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

There is a clear distinction between baptism, which Christ did not send him to do, and the gospel, which Christ did command him to preach. It is clear then that the gospel does not contain baptism. Your "gospel" is heretical, and according to Paul those that preach it are "accursed"

Would someone use the scriptures to show me how to obey the gospel, other than what I have described?

1Cor.15:1-4
The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you believe not that Christ alone took your place on the cross, and believe not that he alone atoned for your sins, you cannot be saved. His blood alone can wash your sins; not baptism. You must put your faith in Christ and in Christ alone. No works can save you--not baptism, nor any other works. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Do you believe the gospel as presented in 1Cor.15:1-4; that gospel which Paul says can save? A simple answer will do.

Would someone use the scriptures and show me how to get INTO Christ in any method other than baptism? Surely nobody here believes that you can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

Baptism simply gets you wet. It isn't magical, and cannot get you into Christ. That is superstion. To be saved you must believe in Christ as your Saviour, as I explained above. Once you put your faith in his shed blood, and trust him completely as your Saviour, the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. That is how one becomes "in Christ."

The simple fact is that Philip preached Jesus and the next thing out of the Eunuch's mouth was a question about water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). The gospel is the good news about Jesus. Philips' preaching of the gospel included water baptism and the Eunuch obeyed the gospel (as described in Rom 6:3-4) and we are not to preach any other gospel (Gal 1:8). So, if you are preaching another gospel that does not include baptism, you are preaching a different gospel than Philip.

[/b]

The Ethiopian Eunuch was saved when he called upon the name of the Lord, before they even went near the water. After he confessed Christ as Lord, he was baptized. After he was saved, he was baptized. There is no clearer passage than that passage that shows that baptism is after salvation.
DHK

 

[mman]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
It's so simple I'll state it again.

II Thes 1:8 states that God will take vengence on those that do not "obey the gospel". How does one OBEY the gospel? How does one obey the death, burial and resurrection (Gospel)? Paul answers that clearly in Rom 6:3-4.

If you do not believe the gospel as presented in 1Cor.15:1-4, which Paul states is the gospel by which one is saved, then Paul also states you believe in another gospel and are thus accursed. Not my words, but the Bible's.
-----------------
I believe it, you have failed to show how to obey it. I have shown how you obey the death, burial, and resurrection.
------------------
Rom.6:3,4 do not explain the gospel. They explain the meaning of a beleiver's baptism. The believer is baptized. The believer shows in his baptism that he is now dead to his old life to sin and now rises again to live a new life in Christ. It is a picture--purely symbolically. What does the waters of baptism do? It gets you wet, and provides a picture; a symbolic picture.
-------------------
Of course Romans 6:3-4 explains how we obey the death, burial, and resurrection. You say all baptism does it get us wet. God says it puts us INTO Christ. I believe God.
-------------------

Can you explain another way to obey the gospel? You list scriptures but cannot logically show how one obeys the gospel. Here is another verse for you, John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Did you deliberately misquote this verse??
--------------------------
I did not misquote this verse. The version you are using probably mistranslated this verse. In the Greek, two different words are used, that are both translated as believe in some versions. Read it from the NAS, ASV, ESV, RSV. The Greek word for believe is Pisteuo. The other word is Apeitheo which means to be disobedient or to not obey. This same word is used in other places such as Rom 10:21, I Pet 2:7-8, I Pet 3:20, and I Pet 4:17.
----------------------
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

--The only way to obey is to believe. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Never does it say to be baptized in order to be saved. If you think it does you are reading the verse wrong.
----------------------
I am not reading the verse wrong. I am reading the whole thing. In Acts 16:30-31, for example, the jailer was told to believe and be saved. Verse 32 says they spoke the word of the Lord. Verse 33 says he was baptized. Verse 34 says he rejoiced having believed, or believing in God. The jailer understood what it meant to believe in God, and rejoiced. Again, the word of the Lord includes instructions on baptism.
-----------------------

The Corinthian church was divided. That's why Paul was glad that he had not baptized more than he did, because it is wrong to follow after men. It's wrong to have division (denominations teaching different things). Paul did in fact baptize some of the Corinthians. If the gospel did not contain baptism, why then did he baptize some of them(I Cor 1:14)? You have not addressed this question.

Paul did baptize some of them, when he first started the church. But it was only a few, and he thanks God that it was only a few. He clearly says that his mission was not to baptize but to preach the gospel drawing a clear distinction between baptism and the gospel. If you say that baptism is a part of the gospel you contradict Paul and count yourself as one of the accursed.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

There is a clear distinction between baptism, which Christ did not send him to do, and the gospel, which Christ did command him to preach. It is clear then that the gospel does not contain baptism. Your "gospel" is heretical, and according to Paul those that preach it are "accursed"
-------------------------
Pauls gospel included baptism, that's why he baptized some of them. To say it didn't is to say that Paul was practicing something different than what he was preaching. There was division in the Corinthian Church. Read the context.
--------------------------

Would someone use the scriptures to show me how to obey the gospel, other than what I have described?

1Cor.15:1-4
The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you believe not that Christ alone took your place on the cross, and believe not that he alone atoned for your sins, you cannot be saved. His blood alone can wash your sins; not baptism. You must put your faith in Christ and in Christ alone. No works can save you--not baptism, nor any other works. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Do you believe the gospel as presented in 1Cor.15:1-4; that gospel which Paul says can save? A simple answer will do.
--------------------------
Faith alone? Really? Where do you find that? James says not by faith alone? If it were faith alone, the demons would be saved, because they certain believe, according to James. The people in Acts 2:37 believed. What would be your instruction to them? What was Peter's? They understood who Jesus was. Did Peter give them wrong instructions in verse 38? His answer and your answer provided above do not match. Were they saved before they repented? If not, why? They believed? If yes, then why did Peter give them any instruction? Peter, in Acts 2:38 says baptism is for (eis - unto) the remission of sins. The greek word eis never means because of, but is always looking forward, never in retrospect. Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
------------------------------

Would someone use the scriptures and show me how to get INTO Christ in any method other than baptism? Surely nobody here believes that you can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

Baptism simply gets you wet. It isn't magical, and cannot get you into Christ. That is superstion. To be saved you must believe in Christ as your Saviour, as I explained above. Once you put your faith in his shed blood, and trust him completely as your Saviour, the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within. That is how one becomes "in Christ."
-----------------------
You forgot to use any scriptures as back up. Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 both say that baptism puts us INTO Christ, yet, you say it doesn't. I believe God.
-----------------------

The simple fact is that Philip preached Jesus and the next thing out of the Eunuch's mouth was a question about water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). The gospel is the good news about Jesus. Philips' preaching of the gospel included water baptism and the Eunuch obeyed the gospel (as described in Rom 6:3-4) and we are not to preach any other gospel (Gal 1:8). So, if you are preaching another gospel that does not include baptism, you are preaching a different gospel than Philip.

The Ethiopian Eunuch was saved when he called upon the name of the Lord, before they even went near the water. After he confessed Christ as Lord, he was baptized. After he was saved, he was baptized. There is no clearer passage than that passage that shows that baptism is after salvation.
DHK [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Not according to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 or Acts 22:16 or Romans 6:3-4 or Gal 3:26-27 or I Pet 3:21.

You say a person believes is saved then baptized. Jesus says a person who believes and ins baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). I believe Jesus and I think he got the order right.

Can a person be saved outside of Christ? You show me one scripture that tells me how to get INTO Christ that doesn't talk about baptism.

 

[Frank]

Dhk:
My argument is not from silence. There are eight passages that specifically state what is to be done in regards to music. It is to sing. By your logic, I could take steak and water for the Lord's Supper as they are not expressly forbidden.
However, I do not do so because the bible states specifically what is to be done. You have confused specific permission from silent prohibition. There is a difference.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:

Do you believe the gospel as presented in 1Cor.15:1-4; that gospel which Paul says can save? A simple answer will do.

Still waiting

 

[Eric B]

You did not show how one "obeys the gospel". You did not show how one obeys the death, burial and resurrection.

Would someone use the scriptures to show me how to obey the gospel, other than what I have described?

Would someone use the scriptures and show me how to get INTO Christ in any method other than baptism? Surely nobody here believes that you can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

What DHK is point out in the passages he is quoting, is that to obey the Gospel is to believe. The Gospel is good news. The people under the OC had a bunch of laws from God to keep; but they were failing miserably, and still lost. That was bad news. The good news is to stop trying to work your way into salvation, and trust in Christ alone. It is not simply a new set of laws (like the Muslims also think). Then, the works we do (including baptism) are out of love towards God, not to be saved. (1 John 4:9-5:3)

Faith alone? Really? Where do you find that? James says not by faith alone? If it were faith alone, the demons would be saved, because they certain believe, according to James.

The point is in v.18. "A man may say 'you have faith and I have works': show me your faith without your works [margin "by itself"], and I will show you my faith BY my works". Once again; the works are not the CAUSE of salvation; only the proof of it. This is what baptism is all about. No one is saying that it or any other works "aren't necessary". They are just not what we trust in for salvation.

The people in Acts 2:37 believed. What would be your instruction to them? What was Peter's? They understood who Jesus was. Did Peter give them wrong instructions in verse 38? His answer and your answer provided above do not match. Were they saved before they repented? If not, why? They believed? If yes, then why did Peter give them any instruction? Peter, in Acts 2:38 says baptism is for (eis - unto) the remission of sins. The greek word eis never means because of, but is always looking forward, never in retrospect. Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

This was when the Holy Spirit first fell onto the church as a whole. The 120 received the Spirit first, now He was being given to the converts as they were baptized. This was the beginning of salvation being "opened up". Baptism itself would not be the means of salvation, but marked it in this occasion.

The simple fact is that Philip preached Jesus and the next thing out of the Eunuch's mouth was a question about water baptism (Acts 8:35-36). The gospel is the good news about Jesus. Philips' preaching of the gospel included water baptism and the Eunuch obeyed the gospel (as described in Rom 6:3-4) and we are not to preach any other gospel (Gal 1:8). So, if you are preaching another gospel that does not include baptism, you are preaching a different gospel than Philip.

The Gospel "included" baptism in the sense that it symbolized the death and resurrection of Christ, but which one is saved, and thus was used as the outward symbol of this freedom of conscience. But still, the ohysicalbaptism is not what does the saving, but rather the spiritual. The people in these passages wwere eager to make their public profession of faith.

Rom.6:3,4 do not explain the gospel. They explain the meaning of a beleiver's baptism. The believer is baptized. The believer shows in his baptism that he is now dead to his old life to sin and now rises again to live a new life in Christ. It is a picture--purely symbolically. What does the waters of baptism do? It gets you wet, and provides a picture; a symbolic picture.
-------------------
Of course Romans 6:3-4 explains how we obey the death, burial, and resurrection. You say all baptism does it get us wet. God says it puts us INTO Christ. I believe God.
-------------------

This passage dis not even necessarily speaking about literal baptism! That looks more like spiritual baptism (like 1 Cor.12:13). To be baptized into Christ's death is to be covered by His blood (forgiven of sin, and thus saved) and then immersed into His own Body. Notice, the actual "raising" we do here is not walking out of a literal pool, but a "walk in the newness of life". Thus as I said earlier, "the old man" dies, and a new man rises, spiritually.
The water baptism was to symbolize the beginning of this walk, but it itself did not accomplish this change.

One cannot have faith or truth based upon what God did not say.

And that's precisely what you're having. You are making a full scale probibition of something God did not even say!

God's word says for us to sing (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). That excludes all other music. If song books are used, there is still just one type of music. If a piano is used, there are two types of music, one authorized the other of human introduction.

Actually; the text, and musical notes ("sheet music") can be considered "another form of music"; with "one of human introduction" too!

Is that enough to lose your soul over? I'm not going to take that chance. God said the type of music is singing, so that is all I can do in faith.

WOW! So salvation is even determined over an issue like that by itself! Well; you're right. One little blemish like that is enough to condemn. But what all works-righteousness advocates fail to realize is that they make many little mistakes and erros like that every day. Once again; God giving us the instructions on the works to do to save ourselves would be a "gift of grace" --IF we could actually work ourselves to salvation; which would mean absolute perfection! You're into avoiding "chances". With Christ there is no need to worry about chances, especially on an issue of silence that man has tried to read some sort of prohibition into! If what you said was true, then if you're wrong on that, then you
will lose your soul.

My argument is not from silence. There are eight passages that specifically state what is to be done in regards to music. It is to sing. By your logic, I could take steak and water for the Lord's Supper as they are not expressly forbidden.
However, I do not do so because the bible states specifically what is to be done. You have confused specific permission from silent prohibition. There is a difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it is evident, from Paul's discussion of "gluttony" that what they were eating was something other than crumbs and little vials. (hread and wine are always mentioned; because Jesus instituted the Supper at a Passover Seder). Still, that is a whole other argument, that I am not even sure of. Still; bread and wine shown taken alone would exclude other food. "sing" does not exclude instruments any more than it does printed music. So once again; your analogies do not match.
Also forgot to address bmerr's earlier statement:

What was Jesus speaking of when He said that one must be born of wter and of the Spirit (John 3:5)?

"born of water" was an expression for natural birth. Not baptism. You can see this in 1 John 5:6, for Jesus. Water baptism was used to mark the spirit baptism anyway, so "born of water" has to be a separate occurrance. Now you might say "why would He say that you had to be born of water, [as well as] the Spirit to be saved". But it went without saying that a person was born of water. What He is saying is NOT ONLY water (not just from being BORN an Israelite, as many people thought), but also of the spirit. The contrast is always "flesh" vs. "spirit".

 

[DHK]

It ought to be evident to all by now that the teaching of the COC is salvation by works, salvation by keeping the law. Consider what the Bible says on this issue:

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The places a curse on those who do not continue in ALL things written in the law, from birth to death, every day, every minute of their lives. They must live a life of sinless perfection ever moment of their life from birth to death, otherwise they are cursed. This is the teaching of this verse. If you do "not continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them" you are cursed.
That includes lying, taking the name of the Lord in vain (even ever so lightly: "Gee" "goodness sake" "O my God," etc) Even the Bible indicates elsewhere that it is impossible to keep the whole law. If you say you do, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. You also make Jesus Christ Himself a liar (1John 1:8,10).

Here is the good news:
Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
--First no man is justified by the law, for the very fact that it is impossible to do so. Paul says straight out here: The just shall live by fiath," Not faith plus baptism, but faith alone.
There is nothing added to faith. It means faith alone. There is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that one should add anything to faith here. That would be to do injustice to the Scriptures--to wrongly divide the Word of truth.

But the law is not of faith. Your religion is not of faith. That is plain to see. Your religion (COC) is of works. You have demonstrated that in your posts. You must keep the works of baptism and other works in order to be saved. You have put yourself under the law. It is impossible to keep. You have set yourself under a curse.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--This redemption comes only through the acceptance of Christ as Saviuor. You must receive the gift through faith and faith alone. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. How? By being made a curse for us. How did he do that? He became a curse for us by dying on the cross for us and taking the punishment (the curse) upon himself. You must accept that sacrifice and appropriate it to yourself by faith. It is a free gift he offers you by faith. There is nothing that you can do to work for it. That would destroy the work that he has done for you and would be the equivalent of spitting in his face--the greatest insult possible. That is the way that Christ looks upon your baptism, when considered as a part of His salvation. He paid the price, the full price. Baptism has no part in it.

Galatians 3:21-22 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Salvation is to them that believe, and only to them that believe--not to them that believe and are baptized as part of their belief for salvation. What was the purpose of the law? Read the above verses again. "The Scriptures have concluded all under sin." It was to show us our sinfulness for we were unable to keep the law, just as you surely unable to keep your own laws.
DHK

 

[mman]

I think I see where our differences are concerning baptism.

Let me make this very clear. Baptism is not a work. Baptism is part of faith. This is made clear in Gal 3:26-27, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Nowhere in scripture is baptism said to be a work or in any way merits salvation.

Did Naaman earn his cure for leoprsy? No. Did the water have some magical power? No. Naaman's dipping in the Jordan 7 times was an act of faith. It sounded crazy to Naaman when he first heard it, he even became furious. Wash and be cleansed? How does that make any sense? Did Naaman believe in the power of God to cure him. Yes, he traveled a long way. Yet the instructions didn't make sense to him. Yet when he obeyed, he was cleansed. God did it, not the water, not the "earning" by obeying, but by faith he was cleansed.

Jesus has said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Yes I believe the gospel. Yes I have obeyed the gospel. I in no way have earned anything!!!!! Salvation is a free gift, by faith. I am a child of God by faith. Salvation by faith is a cardinal teaching in the new testament. Read all of Hebrews 11 to undstand biblical faith. Nobody has ever been said to be faithful who did not obey God's instructions.

Don't say I believe in salvation by works. That is a LIE!

There is only one way INTO Christ, according to the scriptures. Have you found it? Seek and you will find.

God bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
I think I see where our differences are concerning baptism.

Let me make this very clear. Baptism is not a work. Baptism is part of faith.

Baptism is a work. It is done by man to man. Man does it; not God. How can it be anything else but a work? If you think it is not a work, you are greatly deceived. Prayer is a work. Witnessing is a work. Even loving your neighbour is a work. These are all works--commands of Scripture that we are to obey after we are saved. They are evidences of a Christian life, not an unsaved life. One of the evidences of a saved life is that he will take a step of obedience and be baptized. That step of obedence in baptism has nothing to do with salvation. If it does, then your salvation is by works, and you believe in another gospel, a false gospel, a gospel which Paul says makes you accursed.
DHK

 

[bmerr]

The point is in v.18. "A man may say 'you have faith and I have works': show me your faith without your works [margin "by itself"], and I will show you my faith BY my works". Once again; the works are not the CAUSE of salvation; only the proof of it. This is what baptism is all about. No one is saying that it or any other works "aren't necessary". They are just not what we trust in for salvation.

EricB,

bmerr here. It seems as though one of the biggest issues keeping so many in confusion is the idea that faith and works can be separated, and still be what God desires.

Faith and works are like two sides of a coin. If you separate a quarter front and back, you do not end up with two quarters. Only two halves, neither of which would be accepted by the U.S. mint.

You cited from James 2, and I'm glad you did, for that particular chapter has much to say about the separation of faith from works.

v. 14 is a rhetorical question, basically asking, "If a man says he has faith, and has no works to demonstrate that faith, can the faith he professes save him?" The answer is, "No".

v. 17 tells us flat out, that faith, if it have not works, is dead, being alone." So much for "faith only".

v. 20 repeats the fact that faith without works is dead.

Verses 21-24 make reference to an oft used verse to support the idea that one can be declared righteous before God by faith alone. That verse is first found in Gen 15:6, and reads,

"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness."

If I remember correctly, this verse is cited by Paul in one of his epistles, as well.

Anyway, 21-24 reads,

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest that how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Did you notice at what point the imputation scripture was fulfilled? After Abraham offered his son, not just when he believed that God had commanded him to offer him.

And also, Abraham's faith was made perfect, or complete, when he acted on it, and not until then. Up to that point, he had still not obeyed.

My friend, nobody is espousing salvation by meritorius works (well, maybe the RCC, but not us). There is no earning of salvation. One cannot keep the Law in order to be saved.

But in Abraham's case, the works God commaded him to do were before the Mosaic Law. For us under the NT, God's commands are after the Mosaic Law.

Gotta go.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by bmerr:

My friend, nobody is espousing salvation by meritorius works (well, maybe the RCC, but not us). There is no earning of salvation. One cannot keep the Law in order to be saved.

If you are advocating that baptism is necessary for salvation (as COC teaches), then that is exactly what you are espousing--salvation by meritorious works.

Consider once again the plain teaching of Scriptures:

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Verses 1 and 2 state that if Abraham wanted to glory in his works he could, but not before God. That is, his works would do him no good in respect to salvation for salvation was provided 100% from God. It is God's free gift to man. You cannot work for it. Abraham could boast in all that he had done. But his good works were as filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6)

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Instead what does the Scripture say in verse 3:
Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
In other words, before Abraham set out from the Ur of the Chaldees, before Abraham did any of the works that we know him for, he was already righteous before God. He was already saved. He already had eternal life. He already had believed on God. This is what the Scripture says here. It is not only what the Scripture says; it is what the Scripture says the Scripture says. "Now what saith the Scripture?"

Verse 4 and 5 teach a beutiful truth based on the illustration of Abraham's life:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--When a person works he deserves what he works for. That is his wage. If he works for 40 hours a week, then at the end of that week he deserves the amount of money that he settled for with his employer. That is his wage. That is what he deserves. If his employer comes along and gives him a gift (instead of a wage) at his own whim and wish, the employee would be greatly put out. For a gift could be very minute. The laborer is worthy of his hire. He wants what he worked for. He doesn't want grace. He wants his wage.

But then it says 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--You don't have to work (the work of baptism included), but only believe on him (Christ) to be justified. To him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness. There is one and only one thing required for salvation here. It is faith, and faith alone. That is what was required of Abraham and that is what is required of us. Faith in the sacrifical work of the Saviuor. It is not faith plus baptism. In fact it is not baptism at all, for baptism is a work. It is simply faith. That is what this passage teaches. You cannot get anything else from this passage of Scripture. Salvation is by faith alone.
DHK

 

[mman]

Baptism is not a work of merit. It is an act of faith.

Any work that is done is on God's part. Have you not read Col 2:12, "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

That is why we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized. No contradictions in that statement. OR maybe I should just say it exactly like Paul did in Gal 3:26-27, " For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

If anyone says it is some type of work, then I challenge them to prove it using scripture, not just make unsupported statements.

Others say they put on Christ before baptism, yet this verse clearly teaches that we put on Christ in baptism and we are baptized INTO Christ. You can search the bible from cover to cover and you will not find any other way to get INTO Christ.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by mman:
Baptism is not a work of merit. It is an act of faith.

Your assertion is just plain silly, without any Biblical evidence. It is an act, a work that man does, that man receives. If God did it at all, it would have been when Christ baptized on earth, but even then His disciples did the work of baptism on his behalf. God baptizes no one. This is an absolute ludicrous suggestion. Show me where God came down from heaven and baptized anyone. It is a work of man. Who baptized you? God or man?

Any work that is done is on God's part.

Pure semantices. That doesn't mean that God does it. If it isn't done by God than it isn' an act of God. It is obviously an act of man. Man does it, whether or not it is for God. That is irrelevant.

Have you not read Col 2:12, "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

And so??
The verb "buried" is a past participle, better translated "having been buried." It symbolically refers back to our baptism. It pirctures what has been done in the believers life. It is a picture. If you take this so literal do you also (like the Roman Catholics) believe in cannibalism, when Jesus says: "This is my flesh, Take and eat."

That is why we are childern of God by faith because we have been baptized.

Mormons have faith in their baptism. So do Catholics, and so do HIndus. Your faith in your baptism is a Hindu pagan belief. It is paganism. It is superstition. It has nothing to do with the Bible. Faith in the blood of Christ is what saves, not baptism.
I wasn't baptized for two years after I received Christ as my Saviour, yet I knew I was saved. I knew that if I would have died I would go straight to heaven, just as I know that today--baptized or not. I know that because my sins are covered by the blood of Christ. I don't have to depend on baptism.

No contradictions in that statement. OR maybe I should just say it exactly like Paul did in Gal 3:26-27, " For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. That is what saves us. Why don't you believe that? That is what gives one salvation. Of course those that are obedient to Christ after salvation will be baptized. Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. Did Christ lie when he said: "I am the way"? Should he have said: "Baptism is the way"? This is COC theology.

If anyone says it is some type of work, then I challenge them to prove it using scripture, not just make unsupported statements.

I have already used Scripture. You either don't read my posts or just dismiss them. Go back and read my exposition of Rom.4:1-5.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--There is no baptism here. Why? Baptism is a work. There are no works in salvation.
Study also Eph. 2:8,9. Salvation is not of works. Baptism is a work. Man does it. It is a work.

Others say they put on Christ before baptism, yet this verse clearly teaches that we put on Christ in baptism and we are baptized INTO Christ. You can search the bible from cover to cover and you will not find any other way to get INTO Christ.

What you put on in baptism is water It gets you wet.
DHK

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Baptism is the one doctrine and practice the true Protestant should rethink from the beginning. And as far as his views agree with the new Pope's, let him know for sure it is error, and basically the doctrine of righteousness by works.
No, since I have learned about the RCC's stand on baptism, I learned baptism is the trump-card up the sleeve of the anti-christ.
The baptism of Jesus Christ is with the Holy Spirit through regeneration, conversion, and the perseverance of the saints. It is NOT a baptism in or with water - which used to be the Apostolic sign in the beginnings of the Gospel.
The pope succeeded in style to side track Protestants with issues like whether it should be baptism by immersion or with sprinkling; or of an infant or a confessing believer. He breaths scorn down the same sleeve he slipped water-baptism up in.
Just read Matt's remarks, they all highlight man's doings and merit - none of which are the work of God alone whereby a man if saved shall be saved.

 

[Eric B]

bmerr here. It seems as though one of the biggest issues keeping so many in confusion is the idea that faith and works can be separated, and still be what God desires.

Faith and works are like two sides of a coin. If you separate a quarter front and back, you do not end up with two quarters. Only two halves, neither of which would be accepted by the U.S. mint.

You cited from James 2, and I'm glad you did, for that particular chapter has much to say about the separation of faith from works.

Yes, it is two sides of a coin, as we see from comparing James 2 with Romans 4. Still, James is showing that as I said, works are evidence of faith, not faith itself. Abraham wasn't "lost" until he offered up his son, and then saved by that. Faith mean doing whatever God told him. If he didn't, then he did not have faith. Still, it is the faith that saves, because there were plenty pagans sacrificing their children, (and Israelites copied this), but they did not have faith in the true God. And in the New covenant, it is slightly different, because we do not have God speaking directly, audibly to us anymore, and it has been established that man does not always obey God, or even interpret/practice the written Word right. If our salvation were based on being baptized, or over instruments being used or not, then who can be saved?
So, yes, "works" can be "Acts of faith", but it is the faith that saves, not the works, because none of us do them perfectly.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting bmerr,
" the works are not the CAUSE of salvation; only the proof of it."

This is perfect popish, anti-christ teaching. Once you've learnt to grasp that, you'll understand why your views on baptism are all seriously wrong.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hello Eric B,
It's me, Gerhard Ebersoehn, back for a chat.
By the way, I'm busy with those discussions of ours on Galatians, be sure!

Now sorry to upset you once more, but I want to challenge you on this one, quoting you, as saying,
"So, yes, "works" can be "Acts of faith", but it is the faith that saves, not the works, because none of us do them perfectly",
with this remark: Another of those pure popish doctrine stuff, just like above where I quoted bmerr.

 

[mman]

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Gal 3:26-27 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Ac 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Ac 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

1Pet 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 ¶ There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

All is perfect harmony.

 

[DHK]

Perfect harmony in saying that:
#1. Salvation is by faith, and faith alone.
#2. Baptism always follows salvation as a step of obedience for the believer, the one who has already believed on Christ by faith.
DHK