Baptism

[Aaron]

"Y'all" ask questions, and then YOU attack those that give answers. This might be tolerable, and I might accept your reproof, if your charges were TRUE, however you make FALSE charges against me.

Jon asked a question: "show me where it says Jesus received our punishment". I went looking and if you read the ACTUAL WORDS THAT ARE IN THE BIBLE it does not quite say that, so I understand that much of Jon's argument. However, I never claimed any of the things you accuse me of saying:

• and then deny that Jesus paid our debt of sin? (I never denied that Jesus paid our debt of sin, I asked where it says GOD PUNISHED innocent Jesus for guilty us ... Did God "torture" the sin offering the way Jesus was tortured? ... You say "PUNISH" where scripture only says "died". I am looking for the verse that says punish to affirm what I have been TOLD but cannot READ for myself.)
• That that's what is meant by bearing our sins in His own body? (I never denied this, but bearing our sin only IMPLIES punishment for our sin because that is the "theological lens" that has been used to view the verses. I am seeking EXPLICIT verses to support IMPLICIT teaching.)
• Because it just doesn't make sense to you? (You need to reread what I wrote. Both arguments make perfect "sense", however I am not looking for ideas that make sense - even semi-Pelagianism makes sense, having an internal logic, but is not true - I am looking for TRUTH that has explicit scriptural support to affirm it. The verse that clearly speaks of OUR PUNISHMENT (GOD'S WRATH) on CHRIST. So it was NEVER about making sense to me: your charge is false.)
• Who are you? (Someone seeking TRUTH in actual Scripture rather than well thought out THEOLOGY arguments.)

Just for the record, I believe that "punishment" is correct ... it fits the definition of "propitiation" better than any other theory I have ... BUT what I believe is irrelevant. The test is "WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY?"

It is we-all that have failed to provide the requested verse that says OUR PUNISHMENT (GOD'S WRATH) placed ON JESUS.
(So stop falsely accusing me and just post the SCRIPTURE that ends the argument!)

If you see Christ as our substitute, truly bearing our sins and receiving their due to spare us, then your halting at the idea of wrath is not a great concern of mine, because you will see it in time.

If one wonders if He of Whom it is said that He spared not His own Son, actually did spare His own Son from wrath, then one must conclude 1) He didn't bear the penalty, or 2) wrath is more than what one's sins deserve, and therefore unjust.

But there is direct Scripture. Psalm 102 is a Messianic psalm.* This is a prayer of Christ. The whole prayer, not just the parts one might disagree with.

Psalm 102:9-10 For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
​

If that seems foolish to you, or the act of child abuse, or of a petulant god exacting his pound of flesh, you're not alone. They that perish also see the preaching of the Cross to be foolishness, but they which believe, see it as the power of God to save.

*Actually, all the Psalms are Messianic, but 102 is universally seen in the same light as Psalm 22.

 

[JesusFan]

That is what I am asking, only I am not accepting "OPINIONS" (I already have a closet full of theological opinions), I am asking for SCRIPTURE.

The answer that I was taught was that the punishment that was due us was poured out on Jesus. God poured His wrath against US and OUR SINS on JESUS at the Cross. I have even heard it taught from Baptist Pulpits that the punishment extended beyond the cross to the eternal hell that we deserve. Setting the details of Hell aside, where does it say in scripture that the WRATH of the Father fell on the Son? I want to prove what I have been TOLD from scripture that I can read for myself.

Is that such a terrible goal? To desire to know from the WORD OF GOD that the teaching of men is correct?

Scripture SAYS Jesus bore our sins, so that is not in question. "WRATH" is the word that is frequently assumed but seldom quoted and never quoted against Jesus. That is the point that leads Jon to his conclusions and me to my questions.

You claim that I am robbing the Cross of its glory. This is untrue. I desire the Cross to have its TRUE glory. I refuse to follow the error of the RCC and claim "truths" that are not there. Like the Bereans, I am searching the scriptures to see it the words spoken are true. Saying Christ bore our sin is in Scripture (1 Peter 2:24). Saying Jesus is the "propitiation" is in scripture (Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).

When we speak of the "Wrath of God", here is what scripture says:

• [John 3:36 NASB95] 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
• [Rom 1:18 NASB95] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
• [Rom 5:9 NASB95] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.
• [Rom 12:19 NASB95] 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath [of God,] for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
• [Eph 5:6 NASB95] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• [Col 3:6 NASB95] 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
• [Rev 14:10, 19 NASB95] 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ... 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered [the clusters from] the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
• [Rev 15:1, 7 NASB95] 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, [which are] the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. ... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
• [Rev 16:1 NASB95] 1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
• [Rev 19:15 NASB95] 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Thus we have affirmation that we are "saved from the wrath of God" (Romans 5:9), but nothing here suggests that God's wrath fell on Jesus. Does it? Do you have another verse that speaks to God punishing Jesus? (That is the part of Penal Substitution that I am questioning: Jesus suffered [fact], God forgave [fact]. Jesus blood is the reason we are forgiven [fact]. God punished Jesus in our place [speculation unless you can provide the verse that I cannot locate].)

Did God the Father forsake Lord jesus while he was bearing the judgement due us for our own sins?

 

[JesusFan]

If you see Christ as our substitute, truly bearing our sins and receiving their due to spare us, then your halting at the idea of wrath is not a great concern of mine, because you will see it in time.

If one wonders if He of Whom it is said that He spared not His own Son, actually did spare His own Son from wrath, then one must conclude 1) He didn't bear the penalty, or 2) wrath is more than what one's sins deserve, and therefore unjust.

But there is direct Scripture. Psalm 102 is a Messianic psalm.* This is a prayer of Christ. The whole prayer, not just the parts one might disagree with.

Psalm 102:9-10 For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
​

If that seems foolish to you, or the act of child abuse, or of a petulant god exacting his pound of flesh, you're not alone. They that perish also see the preaching of the Cross to be foolishness, but they which believe, see it as the power of God to save.

*Actually, all the Psalms are Messianic, but 102 is universally seen in the same light as Psalm 22.

Still seems that some just want to avoid that God indeed has reserved unto Judgement day Divine wrath towards all not in Christ Jesus!

Started with CH Dodd , who moved the wrath from strong propitiation towards weaken expiation , to now those such as NT Wright removing wrath and needed to be appeased out altogether!

 

[atpollard]

Did God the Father forsake Lord jesus while he was bearing the judgement due us for our own sins?

I ask for scripture (because I can find none) and you respond with questions.

Does the fact that you are moving the goal posts on "God poured His wrath against US and OUR SINS on JESUS at the Cross." mean that you are also questioning if this can actually be demonstrated from scripture?

 

[JesusFan]

I ask for scripture (because I can find none) and you respond with questions.

Does the fact that you are moving the goal posts on "God poured His wrath against US and OUR SINS on JESUS at the Cross." mean that you are also questioning if this can actually be demonstrated from scripture?

Jesus died in our stead, so whatever we were to face in our judgement he did for our sake!

 

[atpollard]

Did God the Father forsake Lord jesus while he was bearing the judgement due us for our own sins?

• And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” [Matthew 27:46]
• To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
  My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
  Why are You so far from helping Me,
  And from the words of My groaning? [Psalm 22:1]
• Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NKJV]
• For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV]
  
• “I even venture to say that, if it had been possible for God’s love towards his Son to be increased, he would have delighted in him more when he was standing as the suffering Representative of his chosen people than ever he had delighted in him before.” (Spurgeon)

You tell me.

 

[JesusFan]

• And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” [Matthew 27:46]
• To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
  My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
  Why are You so far from helping Me,
  And from the words of My groaning? [Psalm 22:1]
• Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NKJV]
• For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV]
  
• “I even venture to say that, if it had been possible for God’s love towards his Son to be increased, he would have delighted in him more when he was standing as the suffering Representative of his chosen people than ever he had delighted in him before.” (Spurgeon)

You tell me.

Jesus as the sin bearer experienced what we was due to for being sinners before a Holy God

 

[atpollard]

If one wonders if He of Whom it is said that He spared not His own Son, actually did spare His own Son from wrath, then one must conclude 1) He didn't bear the penalty, or 2) wrath is more than what one's sins deserve, and therefore unjust.

I have no questions about the WHAT ... scripture is clear on that.
It is the WHY (God's 'motive') that feels more like human speculation than I am comfortable proclaiming as fact.

It is the same problem that I have with "Limited Atonement" ... it makes perfect sense and is IMPLIED by some scripture, but nothing EXPLICITLY states it. So I list it as "Probably True" rather than "Unquestionable Fact".

Some things in scripture are crystal clear and some things are not. On another board, someone is arguing for Universal Salvation through purification via the fires of Hell as a teaching of the ECFs. The division of mankind into "saved" and "damned" is 100% crystal clear in scripture as is the permanency of that state post-mortum. One can make an argument that the eternal fire consumes the damned (although I think scripture leans towards eternal life vs eternal torment as the two destinies), however one really cannot make a strong case for hell being a purifying fire resulting in universal salvation. The point being, I like to clearly mark what is absolutely certain and explicit in scripture from what is merely implied and probable.

Christ Victorious is 100% verifiable.
Christ the Sacrifice is 100% verifiable.
Christ as our Sin is 100% verifiable.
God punishing Christ ... implied but not really verifiable (yet) ... but the search goes on.
God shrugging off sin ... disproved.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus as the sin bearer experienced what we was due to for being sinners before a Holy God

Eternal damnation? (Matthew 25:41)
Verse, please.

 

[JesusFan]

Eternal damnation? (Matthew 25:41)
Verse, please.

That being forsaken by the father is what lost sinners will experience for all eternity!

 

[Aaron]

Eternal damnation? (Matthew 25:41)
Verse, please.

If Christ were not the uncorruptible God, the pains of death would have bound Him eternally. However, He IS the uncorruptible God, and it was impossible for them to hold Him.

 

[atpollard]

A plethora of MORE opinions and a dearth of scripture affirming them ... that is what I receive when I ask for a verse to support an opinion. THAT is why I am suspicions of stated "theology" and seek scripture I can read for myself.

"Trust, but verify."
"Where's the beef?"

 

[Aaron]

A plethora of MORE opinions and a dearth of scripture affirming them ... that is what I receive when I ask for a verse to support an opinion. THAT is why I am suspicions of stated "theology" and seek scripture I can read for myself.

"Trust, but verify."
"Where's the beef?"

You're copping out. You don't get a verbatim. God requires you search for knowledge as for hidden treasure.

 

[atpollard]

You're copping out. You don't get a verbatim. God requires you search for knowledge as for hidden treasure.

Copping out? ... maybe.
However I NEVER asked for a verbatim, I just requested scripture over Pontification.

[Yoda voice] "Searching, I am. Finding, I am not."

 

[Aaron]

Copping out? ... maybe.
However I NEVER asked for a verbatim, I just requested scripture over Pontification.

[Yoda voice] "Searching, I am. Finding, I am not."

Ample Scripture has been provided. But you're copping out because you can't find a certain wording appealing to your feelings.

The Sadducees couldn't find the Resurrection in the books of Moses, either, but Jesus matter-of-factly told them it was because they didn't know the Scriptures nor the power of God. Then He quoted Moses and told them of the obvious conclusion they were responsible to draw.