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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, Mar 22, 2022.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If you see Christ as our substitute, truly bearing our sins and receiving their due to spare us, then your halting at the idea of wrath is not a great concern of mine, because you will see it in time.

    If one wonders if He of Whom it is said that He spared not His own Son, actually did spare His own Son from wrath, then one must conclude 1) He didn't bear the penalty, or 2) wrath is more than what one's sins deserve, and therefore unjust.

    But there is direct Scripture. Psalm 102 is a Messianic psalm.* This is a prayer of Christ. The whole prayer, not just the parts one might disagree with.

    Psalm 102:9-10 For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
    ​
    If that seems foolish to you, or the act of child abuse, or of a petulant god exacting his pound of flesh, you're not alone. They that perish also see the preaching of the Cross to be foolishness, but they which believe, see it as the power of God to save.

    *Actually, all the Psalms are Messianic, but 102 is universally seen in the same light as Psalm 22.
     
    #61 Aaron, Mar 29, 2022
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  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Did God the Father forsake Lord jesus while he was bearing the judgement due us for our own sins?
     
    #62 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2022
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Still seems that some just want to avoid that God indeed has reserved unto Judgement day Divine wrath towards all not in Christ Jesus!

    Started with CH Dodd , who moved the wrath from strong propitiation towards weaken expiation , to now those such as NT Wright removing wrath and needed to be appeased out altogether!
     
    #63 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2022
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I ask for scripture (because I can find none) and you respond with questions. :(

    Does the fact that you are moving the goal posts on "God poured His wrath against US and OUR SINS on JESUS at the Cross." mean that you are also questioning if this can actually be demonstrated from scripture?
     
    #64 atpollard, Mar 30, 2022
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus died in our stead, so whatever we were to face in our judgement he did for our sake!
     
    #65 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2022
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    • And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” [Matthew 27:46]
    • To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
      My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
      Why are You so far from helping Me,
      And from the words of My groaning? [Psalm 22:1]
    • Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NKJV]
    • For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV]
    • “I even venture to say that, if it had been possible for God’s love towards his Son to be increased, he would have delighted in him more when he was standing as the suffering Representative of his chosen people than ever he had delighted in him before.” (Spurgeon)
    You tell me.
     
    #66 atpollard, Mar 30, 2022
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus as the sin bearer experienced what we was due to for being sinners before a Holy God
     
    #67 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2022
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I have no questions about the WHAT ... scripture is clear on that.
    It is the WHY (God's 'motive') that feels more like human speculation than I am comfortable proclaiming as fact.

    It is the same problem that I have with "Limited Atonement" ... it makes perfect sense and is IMPLIED by some scripture, but nothing EXPLICITLY states it. So I list it as "Probably True" rather than "Unquestionable Fact".

    Some things in scripture are crystal clear and some things are not. On another board, someone is arguing for Universal Salvation through purification via the fires of Hell as a teaching of the ECFs. The division of mankind into "saved" and "damned" is 100% crystal clear in scripture as is the permanency of that state post-mortum. One can make an argument that the eternal fire consumes the damned (although I think scripture leans towards eternal life vs eternal torment as the two destinies), however one really cannot make a strong case for hell being a purifying fire resulting in universal salvation. The point being, I like to clearly mark what is absolutely certain and explicit in scripture from what is merely implied and probable.

    Christ Victorious is 100% verifiable.
    Christ the Sacrifice is 100% verifiable.
    Christ as our Sin is 100% verifiable.
    God punishing Christ ... implied but not really verifiable (yet) ... but the search goes on. :)
    God shrugging off sin ... disproved.
     
    #68 atpollard, Mar 30, 2022
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Eternal damnation? (Matthew 25:41)
    Verse, please.
     
    #69 atpollard, Mar 30, 2022
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    That being forsaken by the father is what lost sinners will experience for all eternity!
     
    #70 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2022
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If Christ were not the uncorruptible God, the pains of death would have bound Him eternally. However, He IS the uncorruptible God, and it was impossible for them to hold Him.
     
    #71 Aaron, Mar 30, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    A plethora of MORE opinions and a dearth of scripture affirming them ... that is what I receive when I ask for a verse to support an opinion. THAT is why I am suspicions of stated "theology" and seek scripture I can read for myself.

    "Trust, but verify."
    "Where's the beef?"
     
    #72 atpollard, Mar 31, 2022
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You're copping out. You don't get a verbatim. God requires you search for knowledge as for hidden treasure.
     
    #73 Aaron, Mar 31, 2022
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Copping out? ... maybe.
    However I NEVER asked for a verbatim, I just requested scripture over Pontification.

    [Yoda voice] "Searching, I am. Finding, I am not." ;)
     
    #74 atpollard, Mar 31, 2022
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Ample Scripture has been provided. But you're copping out because you can't find a certain wording appealing to your feelings.

    The Sadducees couldn't find the Resurrection in the books of Moses, either, but Jesus matter-of-factly told them it was because they didn't know the Scriptures nor the power of God. Then He quoted Moses and told them of the obvious conclusion they were responsible to draw.
     
    #75 Aaron, Mar 31, 2022
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