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[Dr. Walter]

Why do you misconstrue what the Bible says? Peter came to the knowledge that they can NOW be saved just like the Gentile.

BEFORE Peter made the statement in Acts 15 he had already identified the salvation of Gentiles (house of Corneilus) to be the SAME SALVATION for the Jews preached by all the prophets.

IN Acts 15 he makes no such statement that "NOW" Jews can be saved the same way as Gentiles but rather the very opposite. He says that Gentiles are saved the very same way as Jews are saved - by grace through faith without the law as the law NEVER SAVED a single solitary Jew:

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

He is saying this in response to people who believe like you. People who believed the Jews were saved through law keeping (Acts 15:2) when law keeping never saved anyone, never justified anyone, never obtained eternal life for anyone but simply acted as a teacher to instruct the Jew in the knowledge of sin and lead them from self righteousness to Christ.

 

[ituttut]

Does it matter when he wrote? [/COLOR]

Jesus tells us that John will tarry. I believe it was for two, if not more purposes. One is to have an Apostle in Jerusalem to back up what Paul had said, just as Peter is used to confirm that Paul'has the gospel to the Gentile. Both John and Peter make it much easier for us to believe Paul is the Apostle, not only to the Gentile, but also to the Jew. I see Peter as the first Book End to show the dispensational gospel of Paul has begun, and John to show the ending of the Body of Christ, it being full as we can see in the book of Revelation.

To me we live in TIME, and Time is of the utmost importance. I believe Peter was chosen to head up the Pentecostal church, and John to tarry to end it. The Body of Christ consists of those saved by the Grace of God, Through Faith, and not of ourselves (No Works). It is God's Gift to US? Will that Gift still be offered after we are caught up to Him in the air? Not according to scripture. The Body of Christ Church will be full, and His Kingdom doors will then be shut.

He recorded the words of Christ, and those words were spoken 60 years before John wrote. Are they not true just because there is a gap of time between the speaking of them and the writing of them?

True, but we see some things in John that were said, but not understood at the time they were said. In TIME before, before Damascus Road, Jesus tells us He came only for His own. It is now up to us to determine what He says to us. Where can we find this information? It is in His Word! Can't we find it in Ephesians 2, and see how important Time is?

Our Apostle Paul reveals some of the things Jesus said. John writes to Israel just as does James, Peter, and Jude. All of these shook the hand of Paul and Barnabas and said they would not go to the Gentile. I believe their Word was their Bond. Did they break it?

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
--The year in which he wrote the book doesn't change the truth one iota. Neither did he get his information from Paul or Peter. There is nothing to say that he interacted with Paul whatsoever.

Again John writes to Israel, and Paul writes to us. In any event why didn't John, Peter, or Juesus tell His people that to receive remission of sins would be by just believing on His name, and coming THROUGH His Faith, that they could be Justified? It is not there for any to see, not until after Damascus Road. Show me scriptures otherwise, and I will believe the Great Command of Repent and Be Baptized for the Remission of My Sins. That is not what I believe.

No, it is not. John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. It is likely that he had not contact with the Apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. John's revelation was straight from the Lord, both on earth when he was with Jesus, and from heaven, as when he wrote the book of Revelation.

Scripture tells us John had contact with Saul/Paul. Peter tells us John had read every Epistle that Paul wrote, including the Book of Hebrews. I can say no more than scripture will allow. The Good News is the Gospel of Paul we can find in Col 2:14-15, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

 

[DHK]

Jesus tells us that John will tarry. I believe it was for two, if not more purposes.

That is not true. Jesus never said that at all. Here is what Jesus said:

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:21-22)
That is not a declarative statement but a supposition. He never promised that John would tarry. In fact he was simply telling Peter to mind his own business; John could have died the very next day. There is no promise here.

One is to have an Apostle in Jerusalem to back up what Paul had said, just as Peter is used to confirm that Paul'has the gospel to the Gentile. Both John and Peter make it much easier for us to believe Paul is the Apostle, not only to the Gentile, but also to the Jew. I see Peter as the first Book End to show the dispensational gospel of Paul has begun, and John to show the ending of the Body of Christ, it being full as we can see in the book of Revelation.

If all that is based on John 21:21 then it is all faulty based on a faulty premise.
However, in Acts 15 all the Apostles, including Paul, were present at the Council. All the Apostles, including Paul, agreed on the same gospel message. There was no disagreement among them. In fact with great unanimity they sent Paul and Barnabas forth to the Gentiles with the simplicity of the gospel message.
Paul became known as the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Peter was known as the Apostle to the Jews.
Thomas was known as the Apostle to India.

Peter wrote after Paul. Paul wrote his letters to the Corinthians in 55 A.D. Peter wrote his epistles in the late 60's, and even mentions Paul by name.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (2 Peter 3:15)

To me we live in TIME, and Time is of the utmost importance. I believe Peter was chosen to head up the Pentecostal church, and John to tarry to end it.

In Acts, Peter started his ministry before Paul; but he wrote his epistles after Paul's death. His ministry was both before, during and after Paul.
John was at the foot of the cross with Mary. He was with Peter in Acts 5 before the Sanhedrin. He was present at Jerusalem in Acts 15. He probably wrote his gospel from Ephesus ca. 90 AD, but the Book of Revelation he wrote from the Isle of Patmos to which he was exiled. Like Peter, his ministry was before, during, and after Paul.

The Body of Christ consists of those saved by the Grace of God, Through Faith, and not of ourselves (No Works). It is God's Gift to US? Will that Gift still be offered after we are caught up to Him in the air? Not according to scripture. The Body of Christ Church will be full, and His Kingdom doors will then be shut.

True, but we see some things in John that were said, but not understood at the time they were said.

That doesn't mean that Paul was the first one was the first one to understand the gospel--a ridiculous position. Peter preaches it plainly in Acts 2; Philip in Acts 8; Peter in Acts 10, especially Acts 10:43,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

In TIME before, before Damascus Road, Jesus tells us He came only for His own.

He also says the same in His High Priestly Prayer in John 17.

It is now up to us to determine what He says to us. Where can we find this information? It is in His Word! Can't we find it in Ephesians 2, and see how important Time is?

Ephesians 2:8,9; like 1Cor.15:1-4, and John 3:1-11; are all good passages to tell a person of the salvation that the Lord has provided for us. One isn't limited to just one passage of Scripture. Genesis 3:15 is a good passage.
Philip started with Isaiah, confined himself to that book, and preached to the Ethiopian Eunuch, Jesus. Isaiah was the only book that he needed.

Our Apostle Paul reveals some of the things Jesus said. John writes to Israel just as does James, Peter, and Jude.

Not true. John does not write to Israel. You are misinformed here.

All of these shook the hand of Paul and Barnabas and said they would not go to the Gentile.

Barnabas did go to the Gentile. He was Paul's partner in doing so.

I believe their Word was their Bond. Did they break it?

Again John writes to Israel, and Paul writes to us.

A false statement.

In any event why didn't John, Peter, or Juesus tell His people that to receive remission of sins would be by just believing on His name, and coming THROUGH His Faith, that they could be Justified? It is not there for any to see, not until after Damascus Road. Show me scriptures otherwise, and I will believe the Great Command of Repent and Be Baptized for the Remission of My Sins. That is not what I believe.

Scripture tells us John had contact with Saul/Paul. Peter tells us John had read every Epistle that Paul wrote, including the Book of Hebrews. I can say no more than scripture will allow. The Good News is the Gospel of Paul we can find in Col 2:14-15, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

You are deceived and misinformed.
There are many statements of Scripture pre-Paul that plainly tell us how to be saved. Acts 10:43 is just one of them.
You do err not knowing the Scriptures.
The Epistle of James was written before all of the epistles of Paul. It was written ca. 50 AD, as was the gospel of Matthew.

 

[ituttut]

to ituttu who asked ]Why do you misconstrue what the Bible says? Peter came to the knowledge that they can NOW be saved just like the Gentile?

My answer: BEFORE Peter made the statement in Acts 15 he had already identified the salvation of Gentiles (house of Corneilus) to be the SAME SALVATION for the Jews preached by all the prophets.

The way you are saying this cannot be true for where in scripture can you find what you contend? In other words through faith justification. Before Damascus Road the Gospel of Jesus Christ in heaven gospel of how the Gentile comes to the father cannot be found, other than by proselysation.

IN Acts 15 he makes no such statement that "NOW" Jews can be saved the same way as Gentiles but rather the very opposite. He says that Gentiles are saved the very same way as Jews are saved - by grace through faith without the law as the law NEVER SAVED a single solitary Jew:

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

You love to cherry pick, and this is a good example. (NKJV and most others) "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
11. "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.'' Evidently Peter, James, John and re rest of the e hierarchy was keeping this information from the congregation, or did not fully understand. Take your pick. It is only NOW that those of the circumcision understood.

May I ask what version of the Bible you are reading? All Spirit filled Bibles we Christians use gives us the word through, and not by faith. This only confuses the issue, forcing some to completely, without cause, to dismiss what we find ONLY IN THE GOSPLE of Paul; To wit, the Gentile is justified Through Faith, and the Jew By Faith.

Perhaps this explanation I formed on this matter will make By Faith, and Through Faith more understandable, and without contradicting scripture. By Faith of Jesus makes it possible for All to be saved, "for God so loved the world". But not until after Damascus Road can we find in scripture how it is possible for the Heathen to be JUSTIFIED before God. After this became known. Peter, in Acts 15 acknowledges that those of Israel can now be saved just as the Gentile.

The Gospel has not been replaced, but additional (new) information is given to man, and that which was hidden in God (redemtion through His blood) is made known, beginning on Damascus Road.

(KJV) Romans e3:21-24, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

He is saying this in response to people who believe like you. People who believed the Jews were saved through law keeping (Acts 15:2) when law keeping never saved anyone, never justified anyone, never obtained eternal life for anyone but simply acted as a teacher to instruct the Jew in the knowledge of sin and lead them from self righteousness to Christ.

Please take another look to whom Peter is talking to, and where they are. They are in Jerusalem the City of the apostolic church, those of the circumcision. It is to those in That Church who are ignorant of the Gospel that was given to Paul. The Gentile was never asked to make covenant with God, or given the Law. I don't accuse you of being still under the Law, but I am beginning to wonder. You contend God had not hidden from man that NOW we are saved by the Grace of God, Through Faith, without works. It is a Gift from God. You evidently believe you are saved just like David was. Could David be saved like we today, even before the Faith of Jesus Christ had happened?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The way you are saying this cannot be true for where in scripture can you find what you contend? In other words through faith justification. Before Damascus Road the Gospel of Jesus Christ in heaven gospel of how the Gentile comes to the father cannot be found, other than by proselysation.

Peter himself verifies salvation is by faith in Christ alone PREVIOUS to the birth of Peter much less previous to the damascus road! He states the remission of sins by faith in Christ in Acts 10:43 was the message preached by all the prophets just as Paul stated in Acts 26:22-23.

Paul himself verifies justification by faith in Christ alone PREVIOUS to the damascus road by using Abraham as the MODEL for ALL THE PROMISED SEED (Rom. 4:11-12, 16; 22-25; Gal. 3:6-17; Heb. 4:2). ALL THE PROMISED SEED include Gentiles according to Paul in Romans 9:24. ALL THE PROMISED SEED included Gentiles as Paul was writing to GENTILE congregations in Romans 4:11 and Galatians 3:6-8

You seriously need to take the time to read the scriptures I gave you and you will see very clearly that justification by faith in the gospel of Christ has been the only way to the Father BEFORE, DURING, AFTER the Damascus road incident. There is no other gospel (Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Cor. 11:4) there is no other Savior (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12) and there is no other justification but by faith before and after the cross (Rom. 3:24-26; Heb. 4:2).

Christ never even taught Paul on the Damascus Road but later after going into Arabia. Peter was preaching this before Paul was even instructed by Christ.

 

[ituttut]

Are you saying Jesus did not know that John would tarry? I agree that Peter is told to mind his own business, but will you not consider that Jesus doesn't speak idle words? The words meant something for they were trying to understand what Jesus said. There is so much the Apostles did not understand, but we today have no excuse in not understanding. Jesus could not come out and say "John will be the last of you to die, for he will tarry until I allow him to write his books. We now know John was allowed to tarry until the end of that century.


My testimony is on truth as follows: "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24. This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true", John 21:21-24. From the above we know He willed it for John is writing his books, just as God willed it to be so, in letting John tarry.



you have your facts mixed up. We know that the Apostles at that time were still living under the Law, circumcion, and blood sacrifice as Jews (Acts 21) Here we see, by the will of God, Paul pays for his disobedience to God by going to Jerusalem. God had warned Paul early one to stay out of Jerusalem, for they wanted to kill him. God allows James to persuade Paul to be under bondage, even make a blood sacrifice. It was not God's will that Paul was to be killed in Jerusalem, and we also see God was not about to let Paul make blood sacrifice. God always wins, from Jerusalem He gets Paul to Rome.
I am not saying James wanted Paul to be killed, but James wanted Paul to do a WORK. Why? We see why in Acts 21:20-21, "And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law 21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." In that day was the gospel the same to the circumcised, and the uncircumcised?



Scripture shows Paul to be the Apostle, today, to the Jew, and the Gentile.
Scripture shows Peter to be the Apostle for the Jew, and to show the Jews that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile with the gospel of Grace Through Faith.
I cannot find where Thomas is appointed to be the only Apostle to India. Please show me what I have missed in His Word. I'll greatly appreciate it.



This is what I said that both Peter and John write after Paul had written his Epistles, and all in the Apostolic church had read them.



You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Jesus Christ chooses Peter to head up the apostolic church of the Jew. John is chosen to later bring us his gospel, books, and Revelation. Paul later is chosen to be the Apostle to both Jew, and Gentile.



At Pentecost Peter preached the gospel to the men of Israel. Phillip in Acts 8 preaches the gospel of the Jew to a proselyte, or a Samaritan. After Damascus Road, which I have consistently said, Peter was given instructions of what to do, and exactly what to say (and no more) to the Gentiles. Peter against his will is forced preach the justification gospel of through faith, in order for those in Jerusalem to accept that Paul truly is the only Apostle to the Gentile. If you believe that Peter knew of the gospel to the Jew was this same gospel, then why didn't he preach this same gospel to the House of Israel? Peter was still teaching the gospel of the circumcision, which was the Great Commission.


] Yes, and it came to pass that through Faith the Gentile would be saved, and the whole world, including all of Israel. Did this surprise Peter in Acts 10? You bet, for if not wouldn't Peter have told his own people of this. Peter did not underhand until later about through faith; not until Acts 15.We know Paul understood before Peter for Paul preached through faith in Acts 13. Can't understand why Christians will not believe, that today (after Damascus Road) that Paul is the Apostle to not only the Gentile, but to the Jew, just as scripture shows. To the Jew first, and then to the Gentile he was to go, and that is what he did.


Of course that was that needed, for through faith was not in the gospel during those times.


You say John does not write to Israel. Was John the heavenly appointed Apostle to the Gentile? Are you saying John only writes to the gentile, and not the Jew?

That's exactly what I said.
Prove it.

Yes I know James wrote his book earlier than any of Paul's Epistles. And to whom does James write his Epistle? To the twelve tribes, or to we Gentiles?

 

[ituttut]

Peter himself verifies salvation is by faith in Christ alone PREVIOUS to the birth of Peter much less previous to the damascus road! He states the remission of sins by faith in Christ in Acts 10:43 was the message preached by all the prophets just as Paul stated in Acts 26:22-23.

Paul himself verifies justification by faith in Christ alone PREVIOUS to the damascus road by using Abraham as the MODEL for ALL THE PROMISED SEED (Rom. 4:11-12, 16; 22-25; Gal. 3:6-17; Heb. 4:2). ALL THE PROMISED SEED include Gentiles according to Paul in Romans 9:24. ALL THE PROMISED SEED included Gentiles as Paul was writing to GENTILE congregations in Romans 4:11 and Galatians 3:6-8

You seriously need to take the time to read the scriptures I gave you and you will see very clearly that justification by faith in the gospel of Christ has been the only way to the Father BEFORE, DURING, AFTER the Damascus road incident. There is no other gospel (Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Cor. 11:4) there is no other Savior (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12) and there is no other justification but by faith before and after the cross (Rom. 3:24-26; Heb. 4:2).

Christ never even taught Paul on the Damascus Road but later after going into Arabia. Peter was preaching this before Paul was even instructed by Christ.

Dr. Walter I believe you have missed the point. The Gentile, as I posted above, " how the Gentile comes to the father cannot be found, other than by proselysation." The proselytes in the OT were not allowed in the Inner Court of the Temple. We were not equal to God's people, but servants to the Jew. Is that what we are today? Or are we in the Body of Christ, and if so are we not in the Center of the Temple?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter I believe you have missed the point. The Gentile, as I posted above, " how the Gentile comes to the father cannot be found, other than by proselysation." The proselytes in the OT were not allowed in the Inner Court of the Temple. We were not equal to God's people, but servants to the Jew. Is that what we are today? Or are we in the Body of Christ, and if so are we not in the Center of the Temple?

You are confusing the way they were saved (Acts 10:43) with the way they are permitted to PUBLICLY worship and SERVE in the house of God.

Under the Old Testament administration made publicly manifest in the "house of God" the same gospel (Heb.4:2) was received through faith and the believer whether Jew or Gentile was justified by faith (Acts 10:43). However, when it came to PUBLIC worship and service in the house of God there was a middle wall of partition that divided Gentile believers in the same gospel from Jewish beleivers in the same Gospel. Gentiles were not permitted to SERVE God in the same capacities in the PUBLIC HOUSE OF GOD.

Under the New Testament administration made publicly manifest in the "house of God" (1 Tim.3:15) both Jew and Gentile are not only saved by the same gospel but they can PUBLICLY worship and serve God EQUALLY as there is no "middle wall of partition" in the PUBLIC house of God.

 

[ituttut]

You are confusing the way they were saved (Acts 10:43) with the way they are permitted to PUBLICLY worship and SERVE in the house of God.

You are confusing the way they were saved (like the Jew), but they were subordinate to the Jew. Not so today.

May I point out something that stands out like a sore thumb, once one can see it? In Acts 10 isn't Peter given a heads up that there is going to be a change? As we continue in Acts 10 we see what is changing. The Old is going to be discarded, and the New will be instituted. We can see clearly that the Great Commission will no longer be valid. What is the New? (NAS) Verse 43 says "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." The prophets support this view, and manner of salvation. It doesn't say they preached it, or knew this was how the Gentile would be saved (Justified).

Under the Old Testament administration made publicly manifest in the "house of God" the same gospel (Heb.4:2) was received through faith and the believer whether Jew or Gentile was justified by faith (Acts 10:43). However, when it came to PUBLIC worship and service in the house of God there was a middle wall of partition that divided Gentile believers in the same gospel from Jewish beleivers in the same Gospel. Gentiles were not permitted to SERVE God in the same capacities in the PUBLIC HOUSE OF GOD.

But is this not what I said? They could not get close to the Holy, or the Holy of Holies. They were not on the same level as God's people. After this dispensation we will see the very same thing. The Gentile will be hanging onto one of God's chosen people in order to go worship, for they cannot approach God on their own - see what is coming after we have been taken up, (KJv) "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." Zackariah 8:23.

No my friend, a Gentile was not equal to a Jew before Damascus Road, nor after the Rapture. Today the Jew can be in the Body of Christ, just like a Gentile.

Under the New Testament administration made publicly manifest in the "house of God" (1 Tim.3:15) both Jew and Gentile are not only saved by the same gospel but they can PUBLICLY worship and serve God EQUALLY as there is no "middle wall of partition" in the PUBLIC house of God.

Could not have said it better myself. The Jew today can come just like me, a Gentile. Today we know His name, and we have access to His blood. Did Jacob know what name to believe on, or Moses? Could they come through His blood before the faith of Jesus was proven? BY faith they were justified.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are confusing the way they were saved (like the Jew), but they were subordinate to the Jew. Not so today.

May I point out something that stands out like a sore thumb, once one can see it? In Acts 10 isn't Peter given a heads up that there is going to be a change? As we continue in Acts 10 we see what is changing. The Old is going to be discarded, and the New will be instituted. We can see clearly that the Great Commission will no longer be valid. What is the New? (NAS) Verse 43 says "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." The prophets support this view, and manner of salvation. It doesn't say they preached it, or knew this was how the Gentile would be saved (Justified).

Absolutely false! Peter explicitly states that the current gospel (Acts 10:38-42) is the fulfillment of the same old Gospel (Acts 10:43). re-emphasizes the old Gospel (Acts 10:43) to be the fulfilled gospel


A. The Current Gospel - Acts 10:38-42

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.


B. The Old Gospel Fulfilled:

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

But is this not what I said? They could not get close to the Holy, or the Holy of Holies. They were not on the same level as God's people. After this dispensation we will see the very same thing. The Gentile will be hanging onto one of God's chosen people in order to go worship, for they cannot approach God on their own

Wrong! Neither could the common Jew approach God on their own. Only the Preisthood could approach God and they approached God in the Temple as REPRESENTATIVES of both Jews and Gentile Proselytes. However, this has nothing to do with the "middle wall of partitition." The middle wall of partitition had to do with SERVICE not salvation as the Priests EQUALLY reprsented the symbolism of salvation for the Proselytes as much as the Jews.

 

[ituttut]

Absolutely false! Peter explicitly states that the current gospel (Acts 10:38-42) is the fulfillment of the same old Gospel (Acts 10:43). re-emphasizes the old Gospel (Acts 10:43) to be the fulfilled gospel

A simple question pleae. Did Peter see anything in Acts 10 that was NEW to Him, and the whole world? If you say NO then why do you disbelieve what is shown to us?

A. The Current Gospel - Acts 10:38-42

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 , and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

[/quote]Not true. The Gospel these verses refer to are for Israel to Repent as the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand. And it was, if only the House of Israel would have accepted Messiah, their King. That is not Our Gospel. That Gospel was for that Day, and not this Day of Salvation by the Grace of God through faith with No Works. They then had to be circumcised, and had to be water baptized, just as Peter told THEM in Acts 2:38.
As you can see above the people John the Baptist, and Jesus preached to only to those that He came for, and those people are just those of Israel, just a Jesus tells us. Show me in the verses below (those you site) where a Gentile is preached to.
Verse 37, "published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee".
Verse 39, "both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem"
Verse 42, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people"

B. The Old Gospel Fulfilled:

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Please show me in prophecy where in scripture the prophets witnessed this happening. They are now witnesses. The prophets bear witness that this is the one whom God appointed to be the judge of the living and the dead, as it says in verse 42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ituttut
But is this not what I said? They could not get close to the Holy, or the Holy of Holies. They were not on the same level as God's people. After this dispensation we will see the very same thing. The Gentile will be hanging onto one of God's chosen people in order to go worship, for they cannot approach God on their own

Wrong! Neither could the common Jew approach God on their own. Only the Preisthood could approach God and they approached God in the Temple as REPRESENTATIVES of both Jews and Gentile Proselytes. However, this has nothing to do with the "middle wall of partitition." The middle wall of partitition had to do with SERVICE not salvation as the Priests EQUALLY reprsented the symbolism of salvation for the Proselytes as much as the Jews.

But it is you that is wrong, for that is not what I said. If you will take another look, I didn't say in that day they could approach God. I said they "could not get close to the Holy, or the Holy of Holies."The Jew could get in the Door, but it was not to be so for the Gentile. We can see this even in that first Century, "Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29. (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
30. And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut", Acts 21:28-30.

As scripture before shown you, the Gentile WILL BE ABLE (through the Jew) to go worship God, for without a Jew they will not be able to approach God to Worship Him.

 

[Dr. Walter]

A simple question pleae. Did Peter see anything in Acts 10 that was NEW to Him, and the whole world? If you say NO then why do you disbelieve what is shown to us? END OF QUOTE




Yes! He saw that the cross of Christ invalidated the Levitical ceremonial laws. No more dietary laws, no more Sabbatical cycle, no more feasts and sacrifices. He saw that neither the Jew or the Gentile were obligated to the Temple form of worship and all of its ceremonial laws.

Yes! He saw that the prophetic gospel of the prophets was the fulfilled gospel being preached to all men.

[/quote]Not true. The Gospel these verses refer to are for Israel to Repent as the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand.

Peter said "ALL of the prophets"! Do you know when the prophets began?? Jesus identifeid Abel as a prophet. Jude identified Enoch as a prophet. Job was a prophet and we have his book to prove it! Guess what? The prophets PRECEDED the Jewish nation.

Go back to Mark 1:1-4 and you will see that the gospel preached by John was the gospel or good news that the KING was at hand. He was sent to prepare the way of "THE LORD"! He was the last of the prophets to anticipate the coming king or Christ except his message was not "shall" but the king "IS AT HAND."

As you can see above the people John the Baptist, and Jesus preached to only to those that He came for, and those people are just those of Israel, just a Jesus tells us. Show me in the verses below (those you site) where a Gentile is preached to.
Verse 37, "published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee".
Verse 39, "both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem"
Verse 42, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people"

Please show me in prophecy where in scripture the prophets witnessed this happening. They are now witnesses.

Read Hebrews 4:2 and you see they PREACHED the same gospel then as we do now. Read Isaiah 53 and you will see Isaiah preached the gospel in this chapter and Paul says so in Romans 10:16. Ask the Philip who Isaiah was preaching about in Isaiah 53 (Acts 8:30-35).

Ask Paul if he preached ANY OTHER THING to the Gentiles than what Moses and Prophets preached:

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


No amount of evidence will convince you as you are willfully blind and will not even deal with the scriptures you have been given over and over again.

 

[billwald]

Was not ever dispensation a new gospel?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Was not ever dispensation a new gospel?

No! Every dispensation may have dealt with sin in a different fashion but the gospel has always been the same. There has been a consistent gospel type since Genesis 3:15 or "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Acts 10:43 and 26:22-23 spell it out about as clear as it can be spelled out. People just won't believe these scriptures.

 

[billwald]

>No! Every dispensation may have dealt with sin in a different fashion but the gospel has always been the same. There has been a consistent gospel type since Genesis 3:15 or "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

OK, agree! But then the Gospel is about God reconciling himself to the entire human race and has nothing to do with the human (dispensational) response to the Gospel. If one argues that the required human response changes with the dispensation then one also must agree that God changes the rules and if God changes the rules then God changes, evolves . . . process theology.

 

[Dr. Walter]

>No! Every dispensation may have dealt with sin in a different fashion but the gospel has always been the same. There has been a consistent gospel type since Genesis 3:15 or "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

OK, agree! But then the Gospel is about God reconciling himself to the entire human race and has nothing to do with the human (dispensational) response to the Gospel. If one argues that the required human response changes with the dispensation then one also must agree that God changes the rules and if God changes the rules then God changes, evolves . . . process theology.

The response to the gospel has ever been the same repentance from sin and faith in the promised/fulfilled Christ (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23). How sin has been exposed and dealt with may differ. For example, the law was "ADDED" to define the knowledge of sin but conscience and human government defined it previously.

 

[ituttut]

QUOTE=Dr. Walter;1635811]

A simple question pleae. Did Peter see anything in Acts 10 that was NEW to Him, and the whole world? If you say NO then why do you disbelieve what is shown to us? END OF QUOTE




Dr. Walter: Yes! He saw that the cross of Christ invalidated the Levitical ceremonial laws. No more dietary laws, no more Sabbatical cycle, no more feasts and sacrifices. He saw that neither the Jew or the Gentile were obligated to the Temple form of worship and all of its ceremonial laws.

I believe you will find you are wrong, which Acts 15 indicates. Those Jews still were observing, and living, as Jews, and James don't trouble the Gentiles with what we do. The Gentiles have turned to God; so quit the proselytization, verse 19.

Yes! He saw that the prophetic gospel of the prophets was the fulfilled gospel being preached to all men.

"And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard," Acts 22:15-1a4. Jesus from heaven tells us to whom we should listen to in this dispensation of God.

ituttue said: The Gospel these verses refer to are for Israel to Repent as the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand.

Dr. Water said: Peter said "ALL of the prophets"! Do you know when the prophets began?? Jesus identifeid Abel as a prophet. Jude identified Enoch as a prophet. Job was a prophet and we have his book to prove it! Guess what? The prophets PRECEDED the Jewish nation.

But did you know Jesus also said, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John", Matthew 11:13.

Go back to Mark 1:1-4 and you will see that the gospel preached by John was the gospel or good news that the KING was at hand. He was sent to prepare the way of "THE LORD"! He was the last of the prophets to anticipate the coming king or Christ except his message was not "shall" but the king "IS AT HAND."

Please read my post again, it saying Is At Hand. The Good NEWS Gospel is that of Paul for it is of Grace, Through Faith, with no work by us. We do not have to do one blessed thing but Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

Read Hebrews 4:2 and you see they PREACHED the same gospel then as we do now. Read Isaiah 53 and you will see Isaiah preached the gospel in this chapter and Paul says so in Romans 10:16. Ask the Philip who Isaiah was preaching about in Isaiah 53 (Acts 8:30-35).

Are you Israel? Isaiah is of Israel. Paul writes to the Hebrew. This is not to any Gentile. The Gentile WIL Hear The Word Of God, and Believe. We will enter into His rest, for we accept His Work. Please read also verse 3 to clarify why the wrath of God will be applied to His people.

Ask Paul if he preached ANY OTHER THING to the Gentiles than what Moses and Prophets preached:
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

I have never said anything different. All I have said is Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile, and the Jew, just as he says. Didn't Jesus Christ give Paul light to preach to The People, and to the Gentiles? That Gospel is the way of the Cross, and today by the Grace of God, through faith in all of the WORKS of Jesus Christ we are saved (those that believe). It is God's Gift to us, with no works of our own to bring this salvation into being.

No amount of evidence will convince you as you are willfully blind and will not even deal with the scriptures you have been given over and over again.

I have just proved salvation is of the Lord, on His terms, and not what man will try to make of it.

 

[ituttut]

Was not ever dispensation a new gospel?

All I can say is you do not believe God dispenses His Grace as He Wills, or when He wil

 

[ituttut]

No! Every dispensation may have dealt with sin in a different fashion but the gospel has always been the same. There has been a consistent gospel type since Genesis 3:15 or "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Acts 10:43 and 26:22-23 spell it out about as clear as it can be spelled out. People just won't believe these scriptures.

But the Gospel has to do with Faith. Without through faith, is it possible for me to be Justified?

 

[Dr. Walter]

But the Gospel has to do with Faith. Without through faith, is it possible for me to be Justified?

Paul gives a Gentile - Abraham - as the example of justification by faith. When did Abraham live? Previous to the nation of Israel!

Paul gives a Gentile - Abraham - as the example justifying faith in the gospel. When did Abrahm live? Previous to the nation of Israel!

Paul gives a Gentile - Abraham - as the example of ALL TRUE PROMISED CHILDREN OF God - not just Gentiles but all promised children of God among the Jews in regard to justication by faith in the SAME GOSPEL!

Your theory is false. Your gospel is false.