Baptism +

[ituttut]

Every dispensation may have dealt with sin in a different fashion but the gospel has always been the same. There has been a consistent gospel type since Genesis 3:15 or "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Hello billwald. What you say is true, but "always been the same" cannot be true. God's purpose is that salvation shall be in His Son, whose name is Jesus Christ, Lord of all. Salvation has always been the same, but in each dispensation, man is told to believe certain things. If they don't believe what is told them (gospel) then they do not believe that gospel. Grace has always been in the gospel, as has faith. These two are constants. But what will make a Trinity?

You are speaking from a position that most Christians find in His Word. But if we look much deeper into His Word, we can indeed find the dispensational Gospel Given to Paul. Jesus knew of this, but no other man, until it was time.

Your position is, as you say, based on what you say above - "consistent type", and found in Prophecy. All the way up to a certain point you are correct in picking out a scripture/s to validate your point, and impossible to refute, unless we come to the knowledge, and also believe what we are told in the gospel that came from Christ Jesus in heaven.

To illustrate, by scripture you have shown From the Beginning. But is there not eternity before the beginning? At a certain point in the Bible we are allowed to see something that happened in Eternity. Where do we first see this? Circa 64 A.D. in Ephesians 1:4, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Why can't we find such as this before the time that Paul was given his dispensational gospel? Such verses as in verse 9 ("Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself"), should tell us that God had hidden something from man (Romans 16:25).

Too many Christians believe what they read in the Bible until they come to Paul. They quote him like crazy, but why will they not accept His Gospel, given to him by Jesus Christ. They believe God gave to Moses His (Moses' Law), but just cannot bring themselves to try and understand the gospel of Paul.

We know Peter writes after Paul (II Peter 3:15-16) and he confirms what we find in the gospel given to Paul for Peter says "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

Then we see John is allowed to write (circa 95 A.D) what Jesus said in John 17:24, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou loves me before the foundation of the world". But notice Jesus did not tell the secret that was hidden by God.

In the Pauline Epistles we can find mysteries explained to us such as, the rapture, and through faith.

After Damascus Road was not a trinity shown? Grace, Faith of man with WORKS, and now THROUGH faith of Jesus Christ, without OUR Works. God shows us a different Gospel, than from the foundation of the world.

 

[ituttut]

Paul gives a Gentile - Abraham - as the example of justification by faith. When did Abraham live? Previous to the nation of Israel!

Please notice your wording, and my wording. By faith Abraham is what scripture shows, and why is this? Because Through faith was not available to Abram/Abraham at the time.

Paul gives a Gentile - Abraham - as the example of ALL TRUE PROMISED CHILDREN OF God - not just Gentiles but all promised children of God among the Jews in regard to justication by faith in the SAME GOSPEL!

Your theory is false. Your gospel is false.

your argument is with Paul, and not me. You use Paul in your argument; yet do not believe what he says to you. Romans 3:30, "since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith."

 

[billwald]

"By faith" is different than "through faith? You gots to be kidding. How about a non-religious example.

Anyway, in another place Paul writes "by grace through faith." Why do you all think Paul changed his wording?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Please notice your wording, and my wording. By faith Abraham is what scripture shows, and why is this? Because Through faith was not available to Abram/Abraham at the time.your argument is with Paul, and not me. You use Paul in your argument; yet do not believe what he says to you. Romans 3:30, "since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith."

Romans 3:30 uses both "by" and "through" faith for justification of both Jews and Gentiles! The Greek proposition "ek" is translated "by" and the Greek preposition "dia" is translated "through."

The very same Greek prepositions are used with Abraham in connection with faith in Romans 4:16, 20 and Galatians 3:8.

Thus Romans 3:30 uses both prepositions for GENTILES and JEWS that is used for Abraham.

 

[ituttut]

"By faith" is different than "through faith? You gots to be kidding. How about a non-religious example.

Really hard to swallow isn't it! By MY Faith I am Saved for that is the Faith that I come through, so say many.

Anyway, in another place Paul writes "by grace through faith." Why do you all think Paul changed his wording?

But Paul does not change his wording. Paul speaks to the Jew, and to the Gentile, and it up to us to correctly divide the Word of God.

I'm not saying here you think you are of Israel, but only give that impression, for you are unwilling to say you are justified through faith. There is a big difference of by faith, and through faith, for God is the one who justifies. I a Gentile will refuse to believe God if I say I am justified by faith, just like His people.

I believe as I do, as a Gentile by seeing God put a division between His people, and me, AS To How He Will Justify Each.
Romans 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Paul is speaking to both Jew & Gentile. But we are to come to the knowledge that we are not Israel, for they are justified differently. Do we really today, want to come to God as a proselyte to the Jewish Faith?

By faith, and through Faith is shown to us in the next two verses. .

Roman 3:29, "Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30. since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

We are free to choose.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hello billwald. What you say is true, but "always been the same" cannot be true. God's purpose is that salvation shall be in His Son, whose name is Jesus Christ, Lord of all. Salvation has always been the same, but in each dispensation, man is told to believe certain things. If they don't believe what is told them (gospel) then they do not believe that gospel. Grace has always been in the gospel, as has faith. These two are constants. But what will make a Trinity?

There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and there is no salvation for sin APART from the provision made by Christ for sin. There is no other way to receive that provision but by faith in the "good news" that salvation is IN CHRIST and IN the provision he has made (Acts 10:43).

Your response is irrational. God never makes any other provision for sin than Jesus Christ and what is obtained by Christ in the life and death of Christ. It is the same message EXCEPT prior to the cross it was (1) future tense; (2) Developing in fuller revelation of details whereas AFTER the cross it is (1) Past tense and (2) fulfilled revelation with all the details in "how" Christ died for our sins.

Salvation provided in the Person of Christ, meaning in the life and death of Christ did not change at any point in history. Faith in that promised provision did not change at any point in history. Jesus did not give Paul "another gospel" than what He preached in John 3:16 and John the Baptist preached in John 3:36 and any attempt to pervert the "gospel of the kingdom" into some other kind of Gospel is destroyed by Paul himself as the book of Acts closes with him preaching "the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

You are living in a delusion that is being fed by eisgetical imagination.

 

[billwald]

>Salvation has always been the same, but in each dispensation, man is told to believe certain things. If they don't believe what is told them (gospel) then they do not believe that gospel.

Then each dispensation is a rule change, a new ball game. Like changing from football to tennis.

 

[ituttut]

Romans 3:30 uses both "by" and "through" faith for justification of both Jews and Gentiles! The Greek proposition "ek" is translated "by" and the Greek preposition "dia" is translated "through."

The very same Greek prepositions are used with Abraham in connection with faith in Romans 4:16, 20 and Galatians 3:8.

Thus Romans 3:30 uses both prepositions for GENTILES and JEWS that is used for Abraham.

But my friend, I'm afraid you are missing something. In Romans 3:30 Paul is using justification of coming through Christ Jesus, and not going directly to the Father, as did all before Damascus Road.

Your Romans 4:16-20 looks to be in error, for there is nothing in the Greek to substantiate your claim. You can find the foreknowledge of God here, but I see error to believe any man knew what God had hidden from man.

Paul carefully uses "ek", and "dia" prepositions in order for us to understand what he is saying. Did God in times past interact directly with man? We know He did. Does God The Father today directly interact with man? We know He doesn't for it is by His WORD. It is necessary today that we come throughJesus Christ

You are completely missing the distinction Paul makes in Romans 3:30. Paul uses "ek" for the Father deals directly with His People. Paul uses "dia" for Gentiles, as we must come through Jesus Christ. Today, anyone can come through the Blood of Christ.

 

[ituttut]

The Greek proposition "ek" is translated "by" and the Greek preposition "dia" is translated "through."

The very same Greek prepositions are used with Abraham in Galatians 3:8.

In the previous Your Galatians 3:8 reference tells us of the foreknowledge of God. God did not preach to Abraham the gospel of Jesus Christ from Heaven. You're trying to force into scripture what God had not told anyone. This verse plainly tells us what He told Abraham, and that is "In thee shall all nations be blessed".

It says before the gospel is known, He told Abraham, is "In thee shall all nations be blessed". When did the Gospel of through faith become known? After Damascus Road.

 

[ituttut]

There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and there is no salvation for sin APART from the provision made by Christ for sin. There is no other way to receive that provision but by faith in the "good news" that salvation is IN CHRIST and IN the provision he has made (Acts 10:43).

I know this, but tell me. Did David know what you NOW know? If so you must show scripture to that effect. Why do you not believe scripture that says GOD hid things from man, until He wished to tell it?

Your response is irrational. God never makes any other provision for sin than Jesus Christ and what is obtained by Christ in the life and death of Christ. It is the same message EXCEPT prior to the cross it was (1) future tense; (2) Developing in fuller revelation of details whereas AFTER the cross it is (1) Past tense and (2) fulfilled revelation with all the details in "how" Christ died for our sins.

Again, I know this. Why do you know what you know? Because you know what none before knew. What you are saying is You had the Foreknowledge of God. You are very, very puffed up my friend.

Salvation provided in the Person of Christ, meaning in the life and death of Christ did not change at any point in history. Faith in that promised provision did not change at any point in history. Jesus did not give Paul "another gospel" than what He preached in John 3:16 and John the Baptist preached in John 3:36 and any attempt to pervert the "gospel of the kingdom" into some other kind of Gospel is destroyed by Paul himself as the book of Acts closes with him preaching "the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

Please try to pay attention to what you are saying. This concerns JESUS CHRIST that now is in heaven. When did He get there? Not until after the Cross.[qipte\

 

[Dr. Walter]

But my friend, I'm afraid you are missing something. In Romans 3:30 Paul is using justification of coming through Christ Jesus, and not going directly to the Father, as did all before Damascus Road.

You are calling Jesus Christ a liar because he denied that any man could come directly to the Father without going through him EVEN BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS much less BEFORE the Damascus road:

Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man COMETH unto the Father, but by me. - Jn. 14:6

He didn't say "I WILL BE"! You are also calling Peter a liar because Peter denied that there was any other name given under heaven through which man can be saved BEFORE the road to demascus incident (Acts 4:12).

Your Romans 4:16-20 looks to be in error, for there is nothing in the Greek to substantiate your claim. You can find the foreknowledge of God here, but I see error to believe any man knew what God had hidden from man.

Paul uses the same preposition "ek" and "dia" in Romans 3:30 for both Jew and Gentile as Paul uses for Abraham in Romans 4

Rom. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by [ek] faith, and uncircumcision through [dia] faith.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of [ek] faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of [ek] the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of [ek] faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Abraham was a GENTILE and Paul says that justification is "EK" faith (Rm. 3:30; 4:16; Gal. 3:7) in regard to Abraham's faith, and ALL who are the children of Abraham. If you are not a child of Abraham "EK" faith you are not a child of God period!

Paul carefully uses "ek", and "dia" prepositions in order for us to understand what he is saying.

The preposition "ek" with faith is in contrast to "ek" with works and simply defines the basis for justification to be faith and not works. Ek speaks of origin or basis. Justifiation has it origin or basis IN FAITH not IN WORKS.

The preposition "dia" with faith simply defines the means THROUGH WHICH the OBJECT of faith is embraced. This is proven to be the means THROUGH WHICH Old Testament saints embraced Christ in the gospel is proven in Romans 3:25:

Romans 3: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [dia] faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul is referring to the sins of Old Testament saints that embraced the gospel "THROUGH" faith even before Christ came.

Did God in times past interact directly with man? We know He did. Does God The Father today directly interact with man? We know He doesn't for it is by His WORD. It is necessary today that we come throughJesus Christ

Jesus Christ condemns your thinking here because BEFORE the cross he said that no man cometh to the Father BUT BY ME. Take a look at the Greek preposition he uses when he says this:

Jn. 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by [dia] me.

The oldest book in the bible, the book of Job contradicts your conclusion as well as Job claims to have a REDEEMER that intercedes and stands between him and God (Job. 19).

No sinner from Genesis to Revelation can come DIRECTLY to God or has ever done so! You simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[ituttut]

>Per ituttut: Salvation has always been the same, but in each dispensation, man is told to believe certain things. If they don't believe what is told them (gospel) then they do not believe that gospel.

billwald: Then each dispensation is a rule change, a new ball game. Like changing from football to tennis.

In a way you have said it. Looked like the NO HOPE Bowl, but the Cross win gives us our Sure Hope. God has a plan (made in eternity), and knows the outcome. Who is it that does all the changing? I would say it is we humans.

God sees how the sinner acts, and responds to that change brought about by man, and woman, because we give in to temptation. We can start in the Garden where we see the woman is deceived, and then commits sin in the Garden, and man follows her. When this change occurred God had to act, and Blood was shed.

Then we see later on the same thing happens, for they are looking for something (to them) is that better, unholy things, such as Idols, and then here we go again. Women, and then the men go astray again forcing God to Act. Romans 1:26-27, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

But God is up to every challenge and implements New guidelines, and Rules to bring about His purpose. NOW we are in His dispensation of Grace THROUGH faith, without any of our works needed, for Jesus, our Lord had done all the Work. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Praise God that He trumps every change we make.

 

[ituttut]

Dr. Walter reply: You are calling Jesus Christ a liar because he denied that any man could come directly to the Father without going through him EVEN BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS much less BEFORE the Damascus road:

Jesus saith unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man COMETH unto the Father, but by me. - Jn. 14:6

You continue to miss the distinction between BY, and THROUGH. Why can't you bring yourself to believe what Paul says? It'sby that Jesus said, and not through. You believe what Jesus said before His death and resurrection, then His ascension to heaven. Why will you not believe Jesus is alive today in heaven, and told Paul how HOW He Is GOING TO DISPENSE HIS GRACE?

 

[ituttut]

He didn't say "I WILL BE"! You are also calling Peter a liar because Peter denied that there was any other name given under heaven through which man can be saved BEFORE the road to demascus incident (Acts 4:12).

Please read your verse again, slowly. (NAS)Acts 4:12, ""And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men BY which we must be saved." Just as you say, Peter preaches the gospel He was told to Preach, and that is BY FAITH JUSTIFICATION, AND NOT THROUGH His Name, at this time, FOR Damascus Road Conversation Had Not Yet Occurred.

 

[ituttut]

Paul uses the same preposition "ek" and "dia" in Romans 3:30 for both Jew and Gentile as Paul uses for Abraham in Romans 4

Rom. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by [ek] faith, and uncircumcision through [dia] faith.

Yes, this is what I have been trying to show you, i.e. there is a difference of by and through.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of [ek] faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of [ek] the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Again Yes, and Abraham was justified by faith (NKJ) Hebrews 11:8 & 11 By faith Abraham obeyed.. ", then "By faith Sarah herself.. ". It is by the faith of these two that Jesus was born. All has to be by faith in order to get to through the faith of Jesus. We could not come through THE WORD OF GOD, because THE WORD had not been made flesh. He became as we, spilled His Blood, buried in the earth three days, and nights, and ascended to heaven. We do not come through the faith of Abraham, but through the faith of Jesus.

 

[ituttut]

Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of [ek] faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Abraham was a GENTILE and Paul says that justification is "EK" faith (Rm. 3:30; 4:16; Gal. 3:7) in regard to Abraham's faith, and ALL who are the children of Abraham. If you are not a child of Abraham "EK" faith you are not a child of God period!

I like to use the term, "I am a mature Christian, a son of God in the Body of Christ. You have allowed yourself to believe what He said on earth, but He has spoken to us afterwards. His relationship while on this earth was with, and for His own people. His journey on earth was not told He came for the Gentile to be Justified as we are. Our information came frrom Heaven.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, this is what I have been trying to show you, i.e. there is a difference of by and through.

Apparently you cannot read English or Greek. The Greek preposition "dia" is used for both Old Tesament and New Testament saints in connection with "faith" THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

1. Gal. 3:26 For YE are all the children of God by (DIA) faith in Christ Jesus.

2. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (DIA) me.

In Galatians 3:26 he is addressing a GENTILE audiance and in John 14:6 he is addressing a JEWISH audiance but both use the same Greek preposition - DIA. The SAME Greek preposition is translated BOTH "by" and "through"!!!!!!!!!!!! The SAME Greek preposition is used for BOTH Old and New Testament saints. Hence, you don't know what you are talking about.

The same Greek proposition "ek" is used of both Jews and Gentiles before and After the Cross with "faith" - THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

1. Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of [ek] faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

2. Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of [ek] faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of [ek] the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Hence, the Bibical writers uses both "dia" and "ek" in connection with "faith" EQUALLY with Jews and Gentiles and EQUALLY before and after the cross!

You idea there is a distinction between "by" and "through" is FALSE!

 

[ituttut]

Romans 3: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [dia] faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul is referring to the sins of Old Testament saints that embraced the gospel "THROUGH" faith even before Christ came.

We are on the same page here. And this is what I have said, and you also. That today all that believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (Jew & Gentile) will be saved. However, what you contend is all of the Saints in the OT knew all about though faith justification. What they all knew was it was necessary for them to work, and it was BY their hands, they could be justified. As previously stated today OUR Hands DO NOT COUNT, as before.

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are on the same page here. And this is what I have said, and you also. That today all that believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (Jew & Gentile) will be saved. However, what you contend is all of the Saints in the OT knew all about though faith justification. What they all knew was it was necessary for them to work, and it was BY their hands, they could be justified. As previously stated today OUR Hands DO NOT COUNT, as before.

We are not on the same page or even in the same book. I am in the Bible and you are rejecting what it says. The same preposition "dia" is translated "by" and "through" and is used for Pre-cross saints as well as Post cross saints. Abraham is the example of justification by and through faith for "ALL THE PROMISED SEED" not merely some of the promised seed. If you think the promised seed refers only to Jews then you have not read Romans 4:16 or Galatians 3.

What you are teaching is absolute heresy!

 

[ituttut]

Apparently you cannot read English or Greek. The Greek preposition "dia" is used for both Old Tesament and New Testament saints in connection with "faith" THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE: (snipped)

Let's quit the diversion, take a deep breath, and get back to what we are (were) discussing, and at Romans 3:30 which does not allow for much wiggle room.

Romans 3:30 written in Greek, " eiper heis hoTheos hos dikaiosei peritomen ek pisteos kaiakrobustian dia tes pisteos."

EK, will you not agree has one (1) definition only, which can mean out of, from, by, away from? So BY Way of they all had to do something to get to Blood. From Abel on they were told to make blood sacrifice. By way of this animal Blood they will be held in the earth until time that they can come dia (THROUGH) the faith of Jesus Christ who shed His blood for us.

DIA, won't you agree has tw0 (2) definition's. What are they? Both are through. And yes I know the subs are such as by means of, way of, by account of, etc. So what does through mean in DIA. doesn't it mean going all the way Through something. We go Through a tunnel by entering at one point, and exiting at another point, as any dictionary will tell you.

Paul uses EK, and DIA for a reason. EK indicates from the beginning, to a point. When we reach that point, we then begin to use DIA where we can enter that channel to get to the other side.
Going through the Panama Canal, you enter, are raised up, and you are on the other side. Can you cross oover by EK ALONE?