Baptismal regeneration

[Walter]

Thanks Tony, you are doing a great job, isn't it sad how tradition is so ingrained, it's a form of brain washing.

I pray for lakeside and hope you can help him.

And I will pray for you. As always, we must be 'confused', 'brain washed', etc. Maybe we just have studied enough to realize that your viewpoint is an invention of the reformers and was not held by the Early Church. I would rather believe as those that sat at the Apostles feet. Early Church history is clear about what their belief was about baptism and it certainly wasn't what you are preaching.

And scripture is quite clear about the nature of baptism AND this is what the Early Church believed:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

"When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:15-17)

These are the ordinary steps for sinners to convert: believe, repent, baptism. Those have not reached the age of reason, can "immediately" receive the free gift of salvation in Baptism, based on the faith of their parents (Acts 16:33) and, of course, they must profess faith themselves when they come to the age of reason.

 

[Yeshua1]

And I will pray for you. As always, we must be 'confused', 'brain washed', etc. Maybe we just have studied enough to realize that your viewpoint is an invention of the reformers and was not held by the Early Church. I would rather believe as those that sat at the Apostles feet. Early Church history is clear about what their belief was about baptism and it certainly wasn't what you are preaching.

And scripture is quite clear about the nature of baptism AND this is what the Early Church believed:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

"When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:15-17)

These are the ordinary steps for sinners to convert: believe, repent, baptism. Those have not reached the age of reason, can "immediately" receive the free gift of salvation in Baptism, based on the faith of their parents (Acts 16:33) and, of course, they must profess faith themselves when they come to the age of reason.

paul did not believe in the power of the water to save lost sinners though, as he stated that to him the thing to preach was the cross and resurrection, not water baptism!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

"And they believing-being-baptised shall be saved", 'ho pisteusas kai baptistheis sohthehsetai.'

"You must repent and let each one of you be baptised for the forgiveness of your sins IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ."

That is as spiritual as it gets. Where's your 'water' ---holy, Catholic 'water'?!

 

[Robert William]

And I will pray for you. As always, we must be 'confused', 'brain washed', etc. Maybe we just have studied enough to realize that your viewpoint is an invention of the reformers and was not held by the Early Church. I would rather believe as those that sat at the Apostles feet. Early Church history is clear about what their belief was about baptism and it certainly wasn't what you are preaching.

And scripture is quite clear about the nature of baptism AND this is what the Early Church believed:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

"When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:15-17)

These are the ordinary steps for sinners to convert: believe, repent, baptism. Those have not reached the age of reason, can "immediately" receive the free gift of salvation in Baptism, based on the faith of their parents (Acts 16:33) and, of course, they must profess faith themselves when they come to the age of reason.

Walter, can you give us scripture to prove what you are teaching?? Where does scripture teach baby baptism, and where does scripture teach that babies get the free gift of salvation by the faith of their parents??

You need to define your terms, otherwise we must dismiss what you teach as another one of billions of opinions.

 

[lakeside]

Gerhard, Water baptism is spoken of here:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.3:22).

In water baptism our sins are washed away. That is another reason why Peter is referring to water baptism in the previous verse.
“eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” (1Pet 3:20-21).

Peter is showing how Noah and the flood pre-figured baptism. Pre-figuring is not exactly the same as what it foreshadows in every detail but in what it is indicating. Baptism is the anti-type of the pre-figuring. Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense? The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it’s sin and iniquity.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
“In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.” (Gen 6:11-13)

Peter clearly says that baptism saves and it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

In the flood the sin and filth of the world was washed away; in baptism the sin and filth in us is washed away.

After the flood God brings the whole world into a covenant with God; in baptism we are brought into the new covenant with God

 

[McCree79]

Gerhard, Water baptism is spoken of here:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.3:22).

In water baptism our sins are washed away. That is another reason why Peter is referring to water baptism in the previous verse.
“eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” (1Pet 3:20-21).

Peter is showing how Noah and the flood pre-figured baptism. Pre-figuring is not exactly the same as what it foreshadows in every detail but in what it is indicating. Baptism is the anti-type of the pre-figuring. Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense? The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it’s sin and iniquity.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
“In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.” (Gen 6:11-13)

Peter clearly says that baptism saves and it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

In the flood the sin and filth of the world was washed away; in baptism the sin and filth in us is washed away.

After the flood God brings the whole world into a covenant with God; in baptism we are brought into the new covenant with God

The flood(water)did not save anyone. The flood. Was God's judgment. It was death. The water in no way saved anyone.
The KJV seems to translate the word diasozo GK 1407/S1295, as saved by. However the word means "to bring safely through". The ESV provides a much more accurate translation then the KJV here.

1Peter 3:20
"because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water."

* I will just finish the thought here. Water was used as a tool of death in the flood. Hence, the symbolism of baptism. We are lowered into the water(death), we are raised and made alive in Christ...through the resurrection V.21. Being lowered into water symbolizes death, lifted up the resurrection.

Water didn't save Noah and it doesn't save us.

 

[Robert William]

Gerhard, Water baptism is spoken of here:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.3:22).

In water baptism our sins are washed away. That is another reason why Peter is referring to water baptism in the previous verse.
“eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” (1Pet 3:20-21).

Peter is showing how Noah and the flood pre-figured baptism. Pre-figuring is not exactly the same as what it foreshadows in every detail but in what it is indicating. Baptism is the anti-type of the pre-figuring. Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense? The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it’s sin and iniquity.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
“In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.” (Gen 6:11-13)

Peter clearly says that baptism saves and it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

In the flood the sin and filth of the world was washed away; in baptism the sin and filth in us is washed away.

After the flood God brings the whole world into a covenant with God; in baptism we are brought into the new covenant with God

The flood water drowned millions of babies, the Ark of God saved eight people. Stop allowing yourself to be deceived!

 

[PreachTony]

In water baptism our sins are washed away. That is another reason why Peter is referring to water baptism in the previous verse.

So water baptism washes away our sin, eh? So the thief on the cross could not possibly have had his sins washed away, even though Christ told him he would enter Paradise with Jesus. The thief was still not baptized, ergo, his sins were never washed away. Apparently, then, faith alone is not enough for salvation, but baptism is also required. If that is true, then Paul only told the Ephesians half the truth. He should have written "For by grace, and baptism, are ye saved, through faith..."

“eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience” (1Pet 3:20-21).

Peter is showing how Noah and the flood pre-figured baptism. Pre-figuring is not exactly the same as what it foreshadows in every detail but in what it is indicating. Baptism is the anti-type of the pre-figuring. Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense? The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it’s sin and iniquity.

You are now comparing the most devastating event in human history to the salvation of God. No! The family of Noah was not saved by the waters, but they were saved from the waters, or "through" the waters. If anything, the flood is a better analogy to our sinfulness, and the Ark is analogous to Jesus Christ.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
“In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth.” (Gen 6:11-13)

Peter clearly says that baptism saves and it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

The flood waters did not wash away the sins of Noah and his family. In fact, they were back to their sinning ways within a few days of stepping off the Ark.

In the flood the sin and filth of the world was washed away; in baptism the sin and filth in us is washed away.

The earth itself was cleansed of humanity during the flood. The remaining humans, though, were not cleansed of sin. They still had to sacrifice. They still had to repent. Noah and his family were saved in the sense of they were not destroyed with the remainder of humanity.

After the flood God brings the whole world into a covenant with God; in baptism we are brought into the new covenant with God

How was the whole world brought into covenant with God after the flood? What is your proof for this?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So water baptism washes away our sin, eh? So the thief on the cross could not possibly have had his sins washed away, even though Christ told him he would enter Paradise with Jesus. The thief was still not baptized, ergo, his sins were never washed away. Apparently, then, faith alone is not enough for salvation, but baptism is also required. If that is true, then Paul only told the Ephesians half the truth. He should have written "For by grace, and baptism, are ye saved, through faith..."


You are now comparing the most devastating event in human history to the salvation of God. No! The family of Noah was not saved by the waters, but they were saved from the waters, or "through" the waters. If anything, the flood is a better analogy to our sinfulness, and the Ark is analogous to Jesus Christ.


The flood waters did not wash away the sins of Noah and his family. In fact, they were back to their sinning ways within a few days of stepping off the Ark.


The earth itself was cleansed of humanity during the flood. The remaining humans, though, were not cleansed of sin. They still had to sacrifice. They still had to repent. Noah and his family were saved in the sense of they were not destroyed with the remainder of humanity.

How was the whole world brought into covenant with God after the flood? What is your proof for this?

Thanks Tony!

 

[lakeside]

The thief on the cross received Baptism by desire and from the washing of blood.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Nope no mention of baptism there.

 

[lakeside]

Revmitchell,The first Christians were taught by the Apostles own lips. The first Christians baptized infants and small children.

In the New Testament, the Apostles were speaking to first-generation converts -- adults. But St. Peter said: ". . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call" Acts 2:38, 39.

Many Protestant denominations baptize infants. Jesus said baptism is required for entrance into heaven. The Church teaches that in addition to water Baptism, there is also the Baptism of Desire and Blood (martyrdom).

Catholics do Baptize very young children and later at an age of reasoning the same young child accepts Jesus at First Communion, then at a later age again receives Jesus at Confirmation.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Revmitchell,The first Christians were taught by the Apostles own lips. The first Christians baptized infants and small children.

In the New Testament, the Apostles were speaking to first-generation converts -- adults. But St. Peter said: ". . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call" Acts 2:38, 39.

Many Protestant denominations baptize infants. Jesus said baptism is required for entrance into heaven. The Church teaches that in addition to water Baptism, there is also the Baptism of Desire and Blood (martyrdom).

Catholics do Baptize very young children and later at an age of reasoning the same young child accepts Jesus at First Communion, then at a later age again receives Jesus at Confirmation.

Being Taught by the apostles makes for infallability?

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

GASP..You mean there were heresies among those taught by the APOSTLE PAUL?

Your appeal to the traditions of men is anti bible, Jesus warned specifically about exalting tradition over the word of God.

Also the word For in Acts 2:28 does not mean "in order to receive"

For example Jeff went to jail FOR stealing.... does that mean he went to jail in order to receive stealing?

in fact the Greek word is the word Eis, and it's the same word AT when Jesus said the people of Ninevah repented AT the preaching of Jonas.. they repented because of his preaching, not in order to receive his preaching.

 

[lakeside]

Jordan, which Greek are you reading - Koine or Attic ?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Jordan, which Greek are you reading - Koine or Attic ?

I'm looking at the Greek that the N.T. was written in.

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at(Eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


the same word as at, is the same greek word eis translated in Acts 2:38 as for... and that's a plain fact.

 

[lakeside]

Jordan , so you're telling me that you haven't a clue whether or not you know for sure that your translation of the Holy Bible is written in the correct Greek.

 

[McCree79]

Jordan , so you're telling me that you haven't a clue whether or not you know for sure that your translation of the Holy Bible is written in the correct Greek.

Can you even get an Attic Greek bible? Whether it based on Alexandrian or Byzantine manuscripts. It is all Koine. Also know as "common" Attic.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Jordan , so you're telling me that you haven't a clue whether or not you know for sure that your translation of the Holy Bible is written in the correct Greek.

If it's the original Greek how could it be a translation...........

But to answer your question, Koine Greek.

The reason I declined to response is because it should be obvious to anyone who has looked into the original languages that is Koine, your question was designed to try and make me look ignorant and so you could somehow argue that I don't know what I'm talking about.

the point is, that the Greek eis does not necessarily mean "in order to recieve" though that it was you are trying to force that interpretation onto Acts 2:38 while ignoring the vast amounts of scripture that say we are not saved by works, as well as ignoring the thief on the cross..

The scriptures also tell us that the Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption... yet if you study Acts you will see examples of people receiving the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism. How can one receive the Holy Spirit before water Baptism if water Baptism is necesary salvation? the answer is
You must let scripture interpret scripture.Baptism does not bring salvation.

WATER BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

 

[Zenas]

Also the word For in Acts 2:28 does not mean "in order to receive"

For example Jeff went to jail FOR stealing.... does that mean he went to jail in order to receive stealing?

in fact the Greek word is the word Eis, and it's the same word AT when Jesus said the people of Ninevah repented AT the preaching of Jonas.. they repented because of his preaching, not in order to receive his preaching.

And yet there is not a single English translation that says "because of the remission of sins," or words to that effect. Even those translators who believe like you always say "for the remission of sins." Maybe that is because they know deep down that "for" best translates this word into English.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

And yet there is not a single English translation that says "because of the remission of sins," or words to that effect. Even those translators who believe like you always say "for the remission of sins." Maybe that is because they know deep down that "for" best translates this word into English.

even if For is the best translation, that does not prove the meaning of for is "in order to receive" instead of "because of". For is an English word with multiple meanings. and I already demonstrated that it can also mean because.

"I go to jail FOR crime."

does one go to jail in order to receive crime?

For is word that has multiple meanings, you are guilty of choosing a meaning that makes the verse contradict other scriptures. It cannot possibly mean in order to receive Baptism is a work of righteousness which according to Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 cannot be the case


Perhaps you could explain to me how people in Acts were able to receive the Spirit of God before they received baptism? did God give his spirit to people who were not saved and regenerated?