Doubting Thomas
Active Member
There is even scripture that says Jesus Himself did not baptize. I'll let those interested look it up.
True, and this is only fitting as He is the one we're baptised into :thumbs:
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Baptismal regeneration
- Thread starter Rebel
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True, and this is only fitting as He is the one we're baptised into :thumbs:
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Furthermore, we do not have to throw out the Books of Romans and Galatians – Catholics believe every single verse in each of those books, and there is nothing in either of those books that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith, and vice versa. The problem you are having again stems from a bad interpretation you have made. Romans and Galatians do not say that “works play no part in salvation,” they say that “works of the law” play no part in salvation. Does that mean all works? No, it does not. It means the works of the law that were imposed upon the Israelites by God in the desert. We see this quite clearly in [Galatians 3:17} which tells us the law came “four hundred and thirty years after” Abraham. In other words, the phrase, “works of the law,” refers n ot to all good works, as you interpret it, but to the very specific requirements of the Mosaic Law.”
Lakeside,
The phrase "works of the law" is not used in the following verses, but rather the general term "works","6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6)
Per this verse, grace and works cannot mix as the means to eternal salvation because if they do they lose their meaning. Grace is by definition "unmerited favor", thus to say you work for it is contradictory.
Also consider, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9)
By your reasoning, a person can be saved, but then can go out and commit murder, rape, robbery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, and every other manner of sin, and never repent of those sins, and yet still be absolutely assured of their salvation. That, with all due respect, is nuts. If eternal security – absolute assurance of salvation – is true, then Paul’s letters to the Romans, to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Ephesians, and everyone else should have simply said: “Hey guys, you made it. Relax and rest easy because you’re saved. See ya in Heaven. Paul”
Grace does not motivate one to sin, but rather to serve as it produces a thankful heart. "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" (Hebrews 12:28) If a loving father unconditionally forgives his son, it motivates the son to come back to him. Example? The prodigal son.
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BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Are you attempting to say that you never sin after you are so called 'saved' ?
I do not know who you are talking to, but if it is me, I never indicated that in my post, nor do I believe that. You indicated that you believe if salvation did not involve works, it would motivate people to sin, and I took issue with that as it is not scriptural.
By your reasoning, a person can be saved, but then can go out and commit murder, rape, robbery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, and every other manner of sin, and never repent of those sins, and yet still be absolutely assured of their salvation. That, with all due respect, is nuts. If eternal security – absolute assurance of salvation – is true, then Paul’s letters to the Romans, to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Ephesians, and everyone else should have simply said: “Hey guys, you made it. Relax and rest easy because you’re saved. See ya in Heaven. Paul”
Lakeside.
I have some questions for you.
how many times have you looked upon someone with lust in your heart? Jesus said this is adultery.
How many times have you ever hated someone before? the bible says hatred for someone is as murder in the heart.
Have you ever had anything in your life that you put before God?
How many times have you coveted after something someone else has?
How many lies have you told in your whole life?
Have you ever stolen anything before?
How many times have you dishonored you mother and father in you lifetime?
I am very curious to know.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Lakeside.
I have some questions for you.
how many times have you looked upon someone with lust in your heart? Jesus said this is adultery.
How many times have you ever hated someone before? the bible says hatred for someone is as murder in the heart.
Have you ever had anything in your life that you put before God?
How many times have you coveted after something someone else has?
How many lies have you told in your whole life?
Have you ever stolen anything before?
How many times have you dishonored you mother and father in you lifetime?
I am very curious to know.
I don't mean to speak for Lakeside, but I think you may have missed the part where he stated "and never repent of those sins".
Rebel,Jesus did not baptize because it is through His death and resurrection that we receive the sanctifying, sacramental grace of baptism and all the sacraments. He could not bestow sacramental baptism during His lifetime because these events had not yet occurred.
That makes no sense. His disciples did baptize. So, according to what you are saying the first baptisms did not do what the RCC claims baptism does.
My point was that water baptism is not central to the gospel, in the respect that it does not save anyone.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Lakeside,
Just a few thoughts on baptismal regeneration for you to consider. The bible repeatedly tells us those that believe not do not have eternal life (e.g. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God John 3:18), but never does it say that those that are not baptized do not have eternal life, why is this so if baptism is an essential means to acquiring the Spirit?
Further, Paul tells us, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God", but the doctrine of baptismal regeneration contradicts this by stating that those in the flesh actually receive the Holy Spirit upon this act of obedience.
Also, Jesus taught that, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8), thus according to this verse one cannot tell when one is "born of the Spirit", but they certainly could if one is "born of the Spirit" at the moment of baptism.
Scripture repeatedly tells us prior to being quickened by the Holy Spirit, an individual is said to be "dead in sins" (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, and Colossians 2:13). A dead man can do nothing, thus how can a spiritually dead person obey God out of faith and be baptized?
The Roman Catholic church does not even practice the correct mode of baptism by not practicing baptism by full body immersion as is pattern taught in the scripture, "38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:38-39)
Finally, scripture teaches baptism is only for those that can believe and understand the gospel message, thus this would exclude infants. Acts 16 with the Jailer is often used to argue for infants being baptized because it states "all that were in his house" but notice in context it states, "
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway", thus only those that believe the words spoken unto them in verse 32 should be baptized, but this is impossible for an infant to do.
Just a few thoughts on baptismal regeneration for you to consider. The bible repeatedly tells us those that believe not do not have eternal life (e.g. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God John 3:18), but never does it say that those that are not baptized do not have eternal life, why is this so if baptism is an essential means to acquiring the Spirit?
Further, Paul tells us, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God", but the doctrine of baptismal regeneration contradicts this by stating that those in the flesh actually receive the Holy Spirit upon this act of obedience.
Also, Jesus taught that, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8), thus according to this verse one cannot tell when one is "born of the Spirit", but they certainly could if one is "born of the Spirit" at the moment of baptism.
Scripture repeatedly tells us prior to being quickened by the Holy Spirit, an individual is said to be "dead in sins" (Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, and Colossians 2:13). A dead man can do nothing, thus how can a spiritually dead person obey God out of faith and be baptized?
The Roman Catholic church does not even practice the correct mode of baptism by not practicing baptism by full body immersion as is pattern taught in the scripture, "38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:38-39)
Finally, scripture teaches baptism is only for those that can believe and understand the gospel message, thus this would exclude infants. Acts 16 with the Jailer is often used to argue for infants being baptized because it states "all that were in his house" but notice in context it states, "
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway", thus only those that believe the words spoken unto them in verse 32 should be baptized, but this is impossible for an infant to do.
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I don't mean to speak for Lakeside, but I think you may have missed the part where he stated "and never repent of those sins".
if a criminal who's broken the law stands before a judge, and says judge, I know I'm guilty, but I will continue to strive not to break the law anymore, the judge, if he's a good judge, will look to him and say: "You are still guilty and must be punished.".
This is the state of every person before God, it does not matter if you go your whole life without sinning, you still stand before God for the times that you did break the Law,however, Jesus Christ paid our fine, he paid our penalty, and when you stand before God it's not a matter of the criminal putting in his effort to not break the law anymore, it's a matter of whether or not the criminal accepted the substitution death of Christ as payment for his sins.
It's very much double talk to say that the Catholic does not believe in works salvation, and then to turn around and say that it's necessary to repent of sin to keep salvation. there is absolutely no difference between working to earn salvation, and working to keep salvation... both require human effort and both demonstrate dependence upon self instead of placing complete trust in the finished work of Christ.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
My point was that water baptism is not central to the gospel, in the respect that it does not save anyone.
Agreed. Also noteworthy is the fact that Paul did not baptize much. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:17) Notice in this verse Paul actually makes a distinction between baptism and the gospel.
What is the gospel? "15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand...
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" ( 1 Corinthians 15:1,3, and 4). Paul made no mention of baptism as being part of the gospel. It is a command of God, but the Bible does not declare it as part of the gospel.
Suppose you have one too many drinks. You are over the limit. You decide to drive home anyway. Your vision is somewhat blurred. You don't see the young man in the crosswalk and hit him. It is a tragic death that could have been avoided had you not been drinking. Soon you appear before a judge.I don't mean to speak for Lakeside, but I think you may have missed the part where he stated "and never repent of those sins".
Tears running down your face you cry with remorse: "I am so sorry; I repent; I will never drink and drive again; If I could only turn back the clock...Oh what have I done; what have I done..."
In the gallery of the courtroom sits the bereaved mother of the victim, one who has lost the apple of her eye. There is also another beautiful young lady, his wife who had just given birth to a newborn son. He was their only source of income. Now what will they do?
You cry out for mercy on the basis that you have repented.
But you have committed a heinous crime.
Do you still believe that just because you have repented you should be "forgiven" and all should be forgotten. Or is their a consequence for your sin?
Will you pay in some way for the murder that you caused?
It is possible you may be forgiven, possible. But that doesn't mean you escape the consequences of your sin.
God is a holy God. The consequences of breaking any sin, even one small lie, is an eternity in hell. There is a consequence for sin.
When you stand before God someday, and he should ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven, what answer would you give?
That is the question that needs to be answered, both by you and especially by lakeside.
That's easy. If you are baptized and you die with unforgiven venial sins you take a detour through purgatory.Suppose you have one too many drinks. You are over the limit. You decide to drive home anyway. Your vision is somewhat blurred. You don't see the young man in the crosswalk and hit him. It is a tragic death that could have been avoided had you not been drinking. Soon you appear before a judge.
Tears running down your face you cry with remorse: "I am so sorry; I repent; I will never drink and drive again; If I could only turn back the clock...Oh what have I done; what have I done..."
In the gallery of the courtroom sits the bereaved mother of the victim, one who has lost the apple of her eye. There is also another beautiful young lady, his wife who had just given birth to a newborn son. He was their only source of income. Now what will they do?
You cry out for mercy on the basis that you have repented.
But you have committed a heinous crime.
Do you still believe that just because you have repented you should be "forgiven" and all should be forgotten. Or is their a consequence for your sin?
Will you pay in some way for the murder that you caused?
It is possible you may be forgiven, possible. But that doesn't mean you escape the consequences of your sin.
God is a holy God. The consequences of breaking any sin, even one small lie, is an eternity in hell. There is a consequence for sin.
When you stand before God someday, and he should ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven, what answer would you give?
That is the question that needs to be answered, both by you and especially by lakeside.
if a man offends in one point of the Law he is guilty of all. James 2:10.That's easy. If you are baptized and you die with unforgiven venial sins you take a detour through purgatory.
God sees the tiniest sin as breaking all of his rules.
Jordan Kurecki, you wrote: "if a man offends in one point of the Law he is guilty of all. James 2:10.
I would suggest you read it all in the proper context.
James 2: 1-13: In the Christian community there must be no discrimination or favoritism based on status or wealth { 2-4; cf Mt.5: 3; 11, 5; 23, 6; 1 Cor. 1, 27-29 } Divine favor rather consists in God's election and promises { 5]. The rich who oppress the poor blaspheme the name of Christ { 6-7 }. By violating one law of love of neighbor, they offend against the whole law { 8-11 }. On the other hand , conscious awareness of the final judgment helps the faithful to fulfill the whole law { 12 ].
I would suggest you read it all in the proper context.
James 2: 1-13: In the Christian community there must be no discrimination or favoritism based on status or wealth { 2-4; cf Mt.5: 3; 11, 5; 23, 6; 1 Cor. 1, 27-29 } Divine favor rather consists in God's election and promises { 5]. The rich who oppress the poor blaspheme the name of Christ { 6-7 }. By violating one law of love of neighbor, they offend against the whole law { 8-11 }. On the other hand , conscious awareness of the final judgment helps the faithful to fulfill the whole law { 12 ].
Really? You (or someone) will die tonight (just suppose).That's easy. If you are baptized and you die with unforgiven venial sins you take a detour through purgatory.
You will stand before a holy, righteous God who hates sin and does not allow anyone or anything unholy into heaven. You have a sin problem. You are not holy.
Why should God allow you into heaven?
What are you going to answer God.
The Bible doesn't speak of purgatory.
It says very plainly:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
--You have an appointment with death, and then an appointment with the Judge. There is no purgatory. What, in your defense, will you give that the Judge of all the earth, should allow you into His heaven?
PreachTony
Active Member
That's easy. If you are baptized and you die with unforgiven venial sins you take a detour through purgatory.
Where is purgatory found in the scripture? I remember a classmate of mine in high school thinking it was odd that I didn't believe in purgatory, yet he could not provide one scrap of scriptural evidence for it.
That's easy. If you are baptized and you die with unforgiven venial sins you take a detour through purgatory.
Where is that taught in scripture?
If you don't show us, then we must dismiss that teaching as another one of a billion baseless opinions.
In other words, you babbling is for nothing.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
I will use the 1611 King James Version of the Bible, a famous Protestant translation. Part 1
1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 IS IRREFUTABLE PROOF FOR PURGATORY
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
Now let’s look at the last part of this passage again. In 1 Corinthians 3:15, we see: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” So we have a man whose works have been judged. His works are, in fact, burned; and he suffers loss; yet he is saved, but by fire. He suffers loss, but is saved by fire.
WHAT DOES “SUFFER LOSS” MEAN IN THIS PASSAGE?
The Greek word which is translated as “suffer loss” is zemiothesetai. It comes from the Greek word zemioo. Forms of this same Greek word, zemioo – which is translated as “suffer loss” in 1 Cor. 3:15 – are found in other passages in the Bible. The word is used to mean punishment. In Exodus 21:22, Proverbs 17:26, Proverbs 19:19 and elsewhere, this very Greek word zemioo is used to mean punishment. That means that zemiothesetai, the word translated as suffer loss in 1 Cor. 3:15, can mean punishment.
So, the man who suffers loss and is saved by fire can mean a man who is punished and is saved by fire. Doesn’t that sound just like Purgatory? Yes, it sounds exactly like Purgatory because that’s what it’s referring to. But there is more from the context to demonstrate the point. Who is this man, and why is he suffering loss or punishment and being saved by fire?
THE CONTEXT OF 1 COR. 3 CONCERNS CHRISTIANS AND CERTAIN SINS OR BAD WORKS
The context of 1 Corinthians 3 deals with members of the Church of Christ; it deals with Corinthian Christian believers. 1 Corinthians 3:3 tells us that some of these Corinthian Christians were falling into sinful imperfections and offenses against God. Some of these bad works or sins are identified in 1 Corinthians 3:3 as strife, divisions and envying.
1 Corinthians 3:3 “… for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
So the context of 1 Corinthians 3 deals with the different kinds of works of believers; some of them are not so good. These different kinds of works (good and bad) are described in 1 Corinthians 3:12.
1 Corinthians 3:12-13 “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”
There are good works, which are called: gold, silver and precious stones. These signify a better or more perfect adherence to the Gospel of Christ. Then there are other works, which are not so good. These bad works or sins included unnecessary quarrelling, strife, jealousy and divisions (as mentioned above). These are described as: wood, hay and stubble. These are the works that are burned in 1 Cor. 3:15, for which the man suffers loss or punishment; but he is saved, yet so as by fire.
This context fits perfectly with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory. The Catholic Council of Lyons II defined Purgatory this way:
Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons II, 1274: “Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death for purgatorial or purifying punishments…” (Denzinger 464)
Purgatory is not for those who have died in the state of serious (i.e., mortal) sin. All such persons go to Hell, as is made clear in Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9, and Ephesians 5:5-8. Purgatory is for those of the true faith who have been forgiven for their sins, but have yet to make full satisfaction for the sins they have committed (more on this below).
Therefore, in 1 Corinthians 3:12, the wood, hay and stubble (which are burned) signify the works of a man who has died in the state of justification and has been forgiven of any mortal sins he might have committed. He is therefore eventually saved, but he hasn’t made satisfaction for sins committed after baptism.
THE CASE OF DAVID IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF A MAN WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVENOF SIN.BUT HASN'T MADE FULL SATISFACTIONFOR IT-- PART 2 NEXT
1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 IS IRREFUTABLE PROOF FOR PURGATORY
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
Now let’s look at the last part of this passage again. In 1 Corinthians 3:15, we see: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” So we have a man whose works have been judged. His works are, in fact, burned; and he suffers loss; yet he is saved, but by fire. He suffers loss, but is saved by fire.
WHAT DOES “SUFFER LOSS” MEAN IN THIS PASSAGE?
The Greek word which is translated as “suffer loss” is zemiothesetai. It comes from the Greek word zemioo. Forms of this same Greek word, zemioo – which is translated as “suffer loss” in 1 Cor. 3:15 – are found in other passages in the Bible. The word is used to mean punishment. In Exodus 21:22, Proverbs 17:26, Proverbs 19:19 and elsewhere, this very Greek word zemioo is used to mean punishment. That means that zemiothesetai, the word translated as suffer loss in 1 Cor. 3:15, can mean punishment.
So, the man who suffers loss and is saved by fire can mean a man who is punished and is saved by fire. Doesn’t that sound just like Purgatory? Yes, it sounds exactly like Purgatory because that’s what it’s referring to. But there is more from the context to demonstrate the point. Who is this man, and why is he suffering loss or punishment and being saved by fire?
THE CONTEXT OF 1 COR. 3 CONCERNS CHRISTIANS AND CERTAIN SINS OR BAD WORKS
The context of 1 Corinthians 3 deals with members of the Church of Christ; it deals with Corinthian Christian believers. 1 Corinthians 3:3 tells us that some of these Corinthian Christians were falling into sinful imperfections and offenses against God. Some of these bad works or sins are identified in 1 Corinthians 3:3 as strife, divisions and envying.
1 Corinthians 3:3 “… for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”
So the context of 1 Corinthians 3 deals with the different kinds of works of believers; some of them are not so good. These different kinds of works (good and bad) are described in 1 Corinthians 3:12.
1 Corinthians 3:12-13 “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”
There are good works, which are called: gold, silver and precious stones. These signify a better or more perfect adherence to the Gospel of Christ. Then there are other works, which are not so good. These bad works or sins included unnecessary quarrelling, strife, jealousy and divisions (as mentioned above). These are described as: wood, hay and stubble. These are the works that are burned in 1 Cor. 3:15, for which the man suffers loss or punishment; but he is saved, yet so as by fire.
This context fits perfectly with the Catholic teaching on Purgatory. The Catholic Council of Lyons II defined Purgatory this way:
Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons II, 1274: “Because if they die truly repentant in charity before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and omitted, their souls are cleansed after death for purgatorial or purifying punishments…” (Denzinger 464)
Purgatory is not for those who have died in the state of serious (i.e., mortal) sin. All such persons go to Hell, as is made clear in Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Cor. 6:9, and Ephesians 5:5-8. Purgatory is for those of the true faith who have been forgiven for their sins, but have yet to make full satisfaction for the sins they have committed (more on this below).
Therefore, in 1 Corinthians 3:12, the wood, hay and stubble (which are burned) signify the works of a man who has died in the state of justification and has been forgiven of any mortal sins he might have committed. He is therefore eventually saved, but he hasn’t made satisfaction for sins committed after baptism.
THE CASE OF DAVID IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF A MAN WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVENOF SIN.BUT HASN'T MADE FULL SATISFACTIONFOR IT-- PART 2 NEXT
PART 2---THE CASE OF DAVID IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF A MAN WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVEN OF HIS SIN, BUT HASN’T MADE FULL SATISFACTION FOR IT
A great example of a man who has been forgiven of his serious sin, but hasn’t made satisfaction for it, is found in the case of David. In 2nd Samuel 11 (2 Kings 11 in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible), we read that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba. David also had her husband killed. These are mortal sins. If David would have died in that state, he would have gone to Hell. 1 Cor. 6:9 shows us that no adulterers or murderers will enter Heaven. But David repented of his sin when convicted of it by Nathan in 2 Samuel 12.
2 Samuel 12:13 “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.”
The Lord took away David’s sin, and Nathan said that he would not die. This means that he would not eternally die. The guilt of the sin was forgiven because David truly repented and turned from it, but was that the end of it? No, full satisfaction for this mortal sin had not been made. We read in 2 Samuel 12:14-15 that David had to suffer the loss of his child to make satisfaction for his sin – a sin which had already been forgiven.
2 Samuel 12:14-15 “… because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.”
This provides undeniable proof that the guilt of a sin of a believer can be forgiven without the entire punishment being taken away. The Council of Trent put it this way:
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, on the Sacrament of Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 8, Nov. 25, 1551 “… it is absolutely false and contrary to the word of God that the guilt [of a sin] is never forgiven by the Lord without the entire punishment also being remitted. For clear and illustrious examples are found in the Sacred Writings [cf. Gen. 3:16 f; Num. 12:14; Num 20:11; II Kings 12:13 f.; etc.].” (Denzinger 904)
In this citation from the Council of Trent, we see references to numerous places in Scripture where a sin is forgiven without the entire punishment also being remitted. The example from Numbers 20 should be quoted.
Numbers 20:11-12 “And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.”
When Moses, in obedience to God’s command, struck the rock in order to miraculously bring forth water, there was a certain level of hesitation in the act or in the manner in which he and Aaron presented it to the people. A Catholic commentary explains it: “The fault of Moses and Aaron, on this occasion, was a certain diffidence and weakness of faith; not doubting of God’s power or veracity; but apprehending the unworthiness of that rebellious and incredulous people, and therefore speaking with some ambiguity” (Douay-Rheims Commentary).
As a result, God told Moses and Aaron that they would not be the ones to bring the people into the promised land. This was their punishment, even though they remained in God’s favor. This punishment was fulfilled. It was Joshua and Caleb who led the people into the promised land.
A great example of a man who has been forgiven of his serious sin, but hasn’t made satisfaction for it, is found in the case of David. In 2nd Samuel 11 (2 Kings 11 in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible), we read that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba. David also had her husband killed. These are mortal sins. If David would have died in that state, he would have gone to Hell. 1 Cor. 6:9 shows us that no adulterers or murderers will enter Heaven. But David repented of his sin when convicted of it by Nathan in 2 Samuel 12.
2 Samuel 12:13 “And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, the Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.”
The Lord took away David’s sin, and Nathan said that he would not die. This means that he would not eternally die. The guilt of the sin was forgiven because David truly repented and turned from it, but was that the end of it? No, full satisfaction for this mortal sin had not been made. We read in 2 Samuel 12:14-15 that David had to suffer the loss of his child to make satisfaction for his sin – a sin which had already been forgiven.
2 Samuel 12:14-15 “… because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.”
This provides undeniable proof that the guilt of a sin of a believer can be forgiven without the entire punishment being taken away. The Council of Trent put it this way:
Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, on the Sacrament of Penance, Sess. 14, Chap. 8, Nov. 25, 1551 “… it is absolutely false and contrary to the word of God that the guilt [of a sin] is never forgiven by the Lord without the entire punishment also being remitted. For clear and illustrious examples are found in the Sacred Writings [cf. Gen. 3:16 f; Num. 12:14; Num 20:11; II Kings 12:13 f.; etc.].” (Denzinger 904)
In this citation from the Council of Trent, we see references to numerous places in Scripture where a sin is forgiven without the entire punishment also being remitted. The example from Numbers 20 should be quoted.
Numbers 20:11-12 “And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the Lord spoke unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.”
When Moses, in obedience to God’s command, struck the rock in order to miraculously bring forth water, there was a certain level of hesitation in the act or in the manner in which he and Aaron presented it to the people. A Catholic commentary explains it: “The fault of Moses and Aaron, on this occasion, was a certain diffidence and weakness of faith; not doubting of God’s power or veracity; but apprehending the unworthiness of that rebellious and incredulous people, and therefore speaking with some ambiguity” (Douay-Rheims Commentary).
As a result, God told Moses and Aaron that they would not be the ones to bring the people into the promised land. This was their punishment, even though they remained in God’s favor. This punishment was fulfilled. It was Joshua and Caleb who led the people into the promised land.
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