Baptismal Salvation?

[preacher4truth]

I would agree with this. But does that really mean Baptism is necesary for Salvation? If someone is trusting in Baptism to save them, is that not works salvation? Where I butt heads with the CoC people is that I believe they may be causing some to misplace their trust. If Salvation is by grace through faith, isn't it the that initial step of faith and repentance that begins in ones mind and heart and not beginning water immersion?

Correct in the latter. We tend to muddy things. A true believer will be obedient, a goat will proclaim salvation and will walk in disobedience fully expecting heaven only to find that lawless living means never saved, Mt. 7:23. The sheep don't depend upon the baptism in water, but do so in the fact of their belief in the Christ who saves. Thus baptism isn't for salvation, but because of, it isn't the cause, but for true believers it is evidence.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Correct in the latter. We tend to muddy things. A true believer will be obedient, a goat will proclaim salvation and will walk in disobedience fully expecting heaven only to find that lawless living means never saved, Mt. 7:23. The sheep don't depend upon the baptism in water, but do so in the fact of their belief in the Christ who saves. Thus baptism isn't for salvation, but because of, it isn't the cause, but for true believers it is evidence.

I agree. I think the Church of Christ is in danger of causing people to misplace their faith though.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree. I think the Church of Christ is in danger of causing people to misplace their faith though.

True. I have family in the CoC. They do in fact teach baptismal regeneration and place the emphasis on the doing of baptism, but they will spin that a thousand different ways in attempt to deny this fact. It is Christ alone, faith that isn't alone, grace alone &c and true believers will be obedient to baptism.

There is more grave danger in easy believism, many are deceived by this, thinking they are born from above because they said a prayer. A few preachers around here go as far as to say there needs to be no fruit, no evidence, 'they said the prayer, they're in'! Hebrews 12:14 and other Scriptures beg to differ.

 

[salzer mtn]

If a person which was saved and baptized into the Baptist church years ago and at that time believed in the free will of man but later in life embraced the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace need to be baptized again ?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

If a person which was saved and baptized into the Baptist church years ago and at that time believed in the free will of man but later in life embraced the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace need to be baptized again ?

Were you trusting in Christ the first time?

I believe that there are saved Arminians and Calvinists.

I KNOW im saved and I believe in Man's free will to choose or reject salvation, I also believe in Eternal security though, I'm probably an oddball on this site as I've noticed most on here are Predestination OSAS Calvinists or they are Arminians who believe you can lost salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

If a person which was saved and baptized into the Baptist church years ago and at that time believed in the free will of man but later in life embraced the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace need to be baptized again ?

As Whitefield correctly asserted, we may start off as arminians, but by His grace we become Calvinists (not the exact quote but similar enough). Since when does growth in truth require one to be baptized again, when growth in truth is actually Scriptural (Hebrews 6) and flies in the face of this being baptized again nonsense which is detrimental to moving forward and things that accompany salvation?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

True. I have family in the CoC. They do in fact teach baptismal regeneration and place the emphasis on the doing of baptism, but they will spin that a thousand different ways in attempt to deny this fact. It is Christ alone, faith that isn't alone, grace alone &c and true believers will be obedient to baptism.

There is more grave danger in easy believism, many are deceived by this, thinking they are born from above because they said a prayer. A few preachers around here go as far as to say there needs to be no fruit, no evidence, 'they said the prayer, they're in'! Hebrews 12:14 and other Scriptures beg to differ.

I completely agree on the easy believism, I am an advocate of Repentance and Faith for Salvation, You cannot divorce repentance from salvation, but repentance is a change of mind that results in action (Fruit) , repentance is not the actions/works (fruit), the CoC doctrine of salvation is an overreaction to Easy believism in my opinion.

 

[preacher4truth]

I completely agree on the easy believism, I am an advocate of Repentance and Faith for Salvation, You cannot divorce repentance from salvation, but repentance is a change of mind that results in action (Fruit) , repentance is not the actions/works (fruit), the CoC doctrine of salvation is an overreaction to Easy believism in my opinion.

Yes. We have adopted at our church a 'public profession of repentance' v. a 'public profession of faith (belief)'.

 

[salzer mtn]

As Whitefield correctly asserted, we may start off as arminians, but by His grace we become Calvinists (not the exact quote but similar enough). Since when does growth in truth require one to be baptized again, when growth in truth is actually Scriptural (Hebrews 6) and flies in the face of this being baptized again nonsense which is detrimental to moving forward and things that accompany salvation?

The reason I ask this question, I and the pastor of a church I have attended for some time are at a disagreement and have been for some time about the answer to my question. I believe as you have stated preacher4truth but he insists that a person cannot be saved unless he hears the gospel under a sovereign grace preacher. Therefore he must be baptized again. This difference has kept us from having full fellowship for years because I will not denounce my salvation under a free will preacher.

 

[preacher4truth]

The reason I ask this question, I and the pastor of a church I have attended for some time are at a disagreement and have been for some time about the answer to my question. I believe as you have stated preacher4truth but he insists that a person cannot be saved unless he hears the gospel under a sovereign grace preacher. Therefore he must be baptized again. This difference has kept us from having full fellowship for years because I will not denounce my salvation under a free will preacher.

I agree. I've heard of a preacher that preaches this same ideology that only under reformed preaching can one be saved. I'm attempting to get his name now, our son told me of him, yet I cannot remember his name, so I sent a text to him to find out who he is, as I would like to hear his point of view out of curiosity. He is somewhere in California if I recall correctly.

 

[Amy.G]

I believe as you have stated preacher4truth but he insists that a person cannot be saved unless he hears the gospel under a sovereign grace preacher. Therefore he must be baptized again.

That doesn't even make sense! If he truly believes God is sovereign in election and salvation then one can be saved no matter who gives him the gospel! :BangHead:

 

[prophet]

The reason I ask this question, I and the pastor of a church I have attended for some time are at a disagreement and have been for some time about the answer to my question. I believe as you have stated preacher4truth but he insists that a person cannot be saved unless he hears the gospel under a sovereign grace preacher. Therefore he must be baptized again. This difference has kept us from having full fellowship for years because I will not denounce my salvation under a free will preacher.

You didn't get saved under anyone or anything. You were saved by Jesus, through faith, which came by hearing...Him, The Word of God.

 

[franklinmonroe]

The word "for" is the Greek eis which is also translated "because," or "because of."

It is the same in the English language. Posters seen all over the midwest 140 years ago said "Wanted: Jesse James, for bank robbery." Did they want Jesse to rob a bank? No, they wanted him because he robbed a bank.

You are correct. The basic idea behind eis is that it is like a pointer, that is, eis means 'make reference to' something. It does not mean to indicate the 'result of'. For example: The baptism of repentance is in reference to the remission of sins.

 

[franklinmonroe]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16 ...

The second part of the verse clarifies that "but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned." It does NOT say 'but he that is unbaptised shall be condemned.' So, what is crucial to avoid condemnation? Belief! That's pretty plain, don't you think?

 

[OldRegular]

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk_3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have a sister who goes to a church of Christ, and we often but heads on the doctrine of salvation. I have trouble with the above verses.

I have looked into the Greek behind the word for in the above verses and it the word Eis inplies foward motion towards something.

Would this not teach that Baptism is the point of salvation? How do we reconcile this with passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Rom 3:28?

C of C also believe that a person can lose their salvation. They are as lost as they ever were! However, if perchance they are saved once again water baptism is not required this time around. Not to stir the pot but has your wife ever explained why? Seems to me that if water baptism is required for salvation it is required or salvation.

 

[convicted1]

C of C also believe that a person can lose their salvation. They are as lost as they ever were! However, if perchance they are saved once again water baptism is not required this time around. Not to stir the pot but has your wife ever explained why? Seems to me that if water baptism is required for salvation it is required or salvation.

If a person came from the CoC and wanted to take membership, I'd ask him some questions to see if their beliefs in the CoC were a thing of the past or not. If they seemed sound in their doctrine, I would still require them to be rebaptized. The mode of the CoC's baptism isn't valid, biblically, imo.....

 

[kyredneck]

There is no such thing as eternal salvation separate from faith, ever.

...and by that what you actually mean is:

'There is no such thing as regeneration separate from man's choice, ever.'

or

'There is no such thing as the work of the law written upon the heart separate from man's personal decision , ever.'

or

'There is no such thing as being born of the Spirit separate from man's free will, ever.'


....that no flesh should glory before God. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus... 1 Cor 1:29,30

But you just don't get that concept do you? It's of Allan that Allan is in Christ Jesus.

 

[kyredneck]

The second part of the verse clarifies that "but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned." It does NOT say 'but he that is unbaptised shall be condemned.' So, what is crucial to avoid condemnation? Belief! That's pretty plain, don't you think?

Yea, it's plain; belief plus baptism equals saved.

Now what's NOT so plain, what REALLY gets gommed up is, 'saved' from what? 'condemned' to what?

Insert your personal picks/preferences.

 

[kyredneck]

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Pet 3

That's pretty plain, don't you think? There is a 'salvation' in water baptism in this passage also.

 

[OldRegular]

If a person which was saved and baptized into the Baptist church years ago and at that time believed in the free will of man but later in life embraced the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace need to be baptized again ?

No!!!!!!!!!!

Having said that I am not one who believes in once Baptized always Baptized unless one is talking about Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

For example: I was Baptized in a Southern Baptist Church. If I wanted to join a Prmative Baptist Church or an Old Regular Baptist Church I expect they would require Baptism. That would not be a problem for me as it has nothing to do with my Salvation!