Baptist but not a Calvinist?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: God is a first cause from which all other actions flow.

HP: This is a most interesting statement that in a sense is true and in another sense it cannot be true.

First, it is true in the sense that God is the Creator of all living, and thus in a sense is the first cause of their very existence. God has to supply the impetus for every action in a sense of being the Creator that built into man the abilities to form intents and to subsequent actions.

God is not the first cause in the sense that He forces or coerces all other intents and subsequent actions. God so designed, created, and endowed the will of man to be the first cause of his moral intents, the creator of those intents, and thereby a proper recipient of praise or blame for those intents and subsequent actions. God granted to man the requisite abilities and allowed for man to have enough knowledge as to not only formulate those intents, but to be able to discern right from wrong, good from evil, selfishness from love intuitively. Even the heathen, however so dimly, intuitively understands the distinction between good and evil to a degree, and thereby is a law to himself. Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

It is moral folly to deny that man is the creator of his intents or that man is the mere product of predestined manipulation. God praises and blames man for his choices, a clear indication that man, under the very same set of circumstances, has the abilities and knowledge requisite of forming a intent and choosing something other than what they do. It is impossible to conceive of God as a Just God that Scripture states He is, in praising or blaming man for the moral decisions he makes, apart from man possessing a free will and that by the direct hand of his Creator. If man is not the first cause of his intents, no morality can be predicated and no love or moral virtue possible, apart from this freedom of the will.

God is said to be the first cause in that He grants to man the abilities and knowledge requisite for moral agency, but man is the first cause of his moral intents, by taking that ability and knowledge and allowing influences upon his will, both from God and benevolence as well as Satan and selfishness, to act as influences upon the will in order to formulate an intent, choose subsequent means to carry out those intents, and the subsequent actions which of necessity are sure to follow.

Only as man is free to make a choice between benevolence and selfishness is man seen as a rightful responsible moral agent for those choices, and the proper recipient of moral praise or blame with associated rewards or punishments.

 

[hill]

I thank my God that I am neither a Calvinist nor a Baptist.

But that sounds like those self rightious pray'ers in the temple that thanked God they were not like those they were observing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hill: I thank my God that I am neither a Calvinist nor a Baptist.

HP: Is this your statement or a quote of someone else?

 

[hill]

HP: Is this your statement or a quote of someone else?

It is mine and so thankfully so.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hill: It is mine and so thankfully so.

HP: OK. I just did not have it clear in my mind to whom it was to be credited.

As for myself, I would simply say that I am not Calvinist or Arminian. I have not idea what it means to be a Baptist, seeing that is so vaguely definable, or so it would appear to me at this time. That will make for some spirited discussions I am sure. I will start a thread to aide in our understanding of what it means to be a Baptist.

One thing is for sure, it is a rare find to find one willing and desiring to be called a Calvinist.

 

[BobRyan]

I recently saw a presentation contrasting the Calvinist George Whitfield with the Methodist Arminian - John Wesley. Contemporaries who happened to be very good friends.

In the Contrast Whitfield was said to believe in OSAS as part of his Calvinist teaching whereas Wesley rejected OSAS as part of his Arminian views "by contrast".

So how is it that there are some non-Calvinist Baptists that hold to Whitfields Calvinist views on OSAS?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I ask the question above as one coming from the Arminian POV - but I would ask the same question of the Arminian Baptists (or non-Calvinist Baptists) if I were a Calvinist Baptist.

 

[BD17]

HP: Let me ask you a question. If a Governor would refuse to pardon the criminal, and the prisoner was on his way to the death chamber, does the possibility still exist that he might in fact repent although no possibility remained for a pardon? Would it take some 'driving force' to necessitate the repentance, or could the prisoner have a change of heart and simply form an intent to exercise repentance?

It is still not a decision made of His own accord, he would as you say have been coerced by the certain end of death. Of which God is carrying out. It is fear of death that causes the repentance and the question would remain is it TRUE repentance? That only comes from the quickening power of Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

What sense does it make to preach repentance and then in the next breath say you can't do it but maybe God will do it for you? Huh?

 

[BD17]

What sense does it make to preach repentance and then in the next breath say you can't do it but maybe God will do it for you? Huh?

Blah blah blah that is all I hear from you Bob, you always twist words. I did not say God repents for you I said he gives us the ability to truly repent and mean it.

 

[webdog]

Blah blah blah that is all I hear from you Bob, you always twist words. I did not say God repents for you I said he gives us the ability to truly repent and mean it.

Blah blah blah (double talk) blah blah blah...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: Blah blah blah that is all I hear from you Bob, you always twist words. I did not say God repents for you I said he gives us the ability to truly repent and mean it.

HP: Bob makes an excellent point BD17. If man lacks the ability, it is God that is the cause of our repentance, and not ourselves. If you preach that repentance is only possible as God grants to man the ability, you need to preach to God for He alone is able to grant the ability. What good is it to preach to a dead log floating down a stream that lacks all ability to obey God’s commands? How many times do I hear individuals such as yourself say that none can seek God. If I cannot seek God and I lack the abilities to repent, I have no alternative but to wait on God to do something. I am dead, remember?

Standing on the river bank calling out to a dead log to repent, I am almost sure I heard the log laugh and call back, “Are you nuts or something? Do you think I am God? I am dead. I cannot repent. I cannot seek God. Go preach to God and ask Him why He is withholding the necessary abilities to do what He commands!”

This is not the picture Scripture paints. God sees man fully able to repent IF he will. God is seen as beckoning a rebellious man to respond to Him, not some poor helpless creature that cannot do anything. God calls on men everywhere to repent. Is God requiring man to do something that is a natural impossibility? If He is, what good does it do to call such a helpless creature to do anything, let alone repent? It is a natural impossibility according to you.

If man does not have the abilities, somebody has to do it for him just as Brother Bob suggests. Man, in and of himself, cannot repent according to you. How is it not all of God if in fact God is the one granting or with holding abilities according to you? God would be the sole responsible party for repentance or the failure to repent, not man. Man is a dead passive log remember? It makes any preaching to the sinner to turn and repent an absolute farce. You might as well preach repentance to a brick wall as a dead log.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: Bob makes an excellent point BD17. If man lacks the ability, it is God that is the cause of our repentance, and not ourselves. If you preach that repentance is only possible as God grants to man the ability, you need to preach to God for He alone is able to grant the ability. What good is it to preach to a dead log floating down a stream that lacks all ability to obey God’s commands? How many times do I hear individuals such as yourself say that none can seek God. If I cannot seek God and I lack the abilities to repent, I have no alternative but to wait on God to do something. I am dead, remember?

Standing on the river bank calling out to a dead log to repent, I am almost sure I heard the log laugh and call back, “Are you nuts or something? Do you think I am God? I am dead. I cannot repent. I cannot seek God. Go preach to God and ask Him why He is withholding the necessary abilities to do what He commands!”

This is not the picture Scripture paints. God sees man fully able to repent IF he will. God is seen as beckoning a rebellious man to respond to Him, not some poor helpless creature that cannot do anything. God calls on men everywhere to repent. Is God requiring man to do something that is a natural impossibility? If He is, what good does it do to call such a helpless creature to do anything, let alone repent? It is a natural impossibility according to you.

If man does not have the abilities, somebody has to do it for him just as Brother Bob suggests. Man, in and of himself, cannot repent according to you. How is it not all of God if in fact God is the one granting or with holding abilities according to you? God would be the sole responsible party for repentance or the failure to repent, not man. Man is a dead passive log remember? It makes any preaching to the sinner to turn and repent an absolute farce. You might as well preach repentance to a brick wall as a dead log.

Well BD17, you don't want me to comment. I agree with them...

 

[BD17]

HP: Bob makes an excellent point BD17. If man lacks the ability, it is God that is the cause of our repentance, and not ourselves. If you preach that repentance is only possible as God grants to man the ability, you need to preach to God for He alone is able to grant the ability. What good is it to preach to a dead log floating down a stream that lacks all ability to obey God’s commands? How many times do I hear individuals such as yourself say that none can seek God. If I cannot seek God and I lack the abilities to repent, I have no alternative but to wait on God to do something. I am dead, remember?

Standing on the river bank calling out to a dead log to repent, I am almost sure I heard the log laugh and call back, “Are you nuts or something? Do you think I am God? I am dead. I cannot repent. I cannot seek God. Go preach to God and ask Him why He is withholding the necessary abilities to do what He commands!”

This is not the picture Scripture paints. God sees man fully able to repent IF he will. God is seen as beckoning a rebellious man to respond to Him, not some poor helpless creature that cannot do anything. God calls on men everywhere to repent. Is God requiring man to do something that is a natural impossibility? If He is, what good does it do to call such a helpless creature to do anything, let alone repent? It is a natural impossibility according to you.

If man does not have the abilities, somebody has to do it for him just as Brother Bob suggests. Man, in and of himself, cannot repent according to you. How is it not all of God if in fact God is the one granting or with holding abilities according to you? God would be the sole responsible party for repentance or the failure to repent, not man. Man is a dead passive log remember? It makes any preaching to the sinner to turn and repent an absolute farce. You might as well preach repentance to a brick wall as a dead log.

You all fail to realize that God uses people such as ourselves to set the heartstrings going in a person who does not believe, if you are preaching to someone you are the vessel through which God changes the person's heart. You all are so caught up in your own ability to do this or that, when you have none, scripture says you are DEAD those very words, I guess that would mean that Bob and all of you believe dead does not mean dead.

 

[BD17]

Read 1 Kings 18:37 here I will post it so you can not ignore the text....


"O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 37Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back

Wait a minute... who turned their hearts back? Could it be... it was God. Not their free will. Praise be to Him!!

 

[BD17]

We are sinners whether we like or not whether you admit it or not there is nothing we can do to keep from being sinners. So the goo book says,


Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wiked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."


Psalm 130:3 "If you, O Lord kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?"

Prov. 20:9 "Who can say 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean without sin'?"

Eccl. 7:20 "There is not a rightous man on earth who does what is right and never sins"

Eccl. 9:3 "The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live"

Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way."

Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unlean, and all our rightous acts are like filthy rags."

Jer. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who an understand it?"

Matt. 7:21-23 "For from within, out of man's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander,arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unlean."

Jn 3:19 "Men loved darkness instead of light.

Jn 8:34 "Jesus replied,'I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slve to sin."

Jn. 8:44 "You belong to you father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire."

Rom. 3:9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. AS it is written:
"There is no one rightous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is o one who does good, not even one'"

Rom. 6:20 "You were slaves to sin."

Rom. 8:7-8 "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. THose controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."


1Cor. 2:14 "The man without the spiritdoes not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."


Listen to the words used to describe our condition, SLAVE to sin, our hearts are FILLED with evil, from WITHIN, out of men's hearts. Ephesians says we are "dead in our transgressions and sins," do these sound like conditions we can get out of ourselves? Do you know any slaves that just decided to stop being a slave, know any one who raised themselves from the dead? No, because the whole idea is that we cannot do this without the freegift of grace in our lives from our Father through his Son Jesus.

 

[BD17]

Dead to God and alive to self humans are incapable of taking a single step towards God, not because of some internal defect or external pleasure, but due to the bondage of the unregenerated will. We really truly do not want to come to terms with God. We want to run from God, like Adam and Eve, and sew fig leaves into a shame concealing garment. "There is no one rightous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no on who seeks God... there is no one who seeks good, not even one" (Rom. 3 10-12). We depend entirely on God's mercy if we are going to live again and respond to him.

When our relationship with God was severed all of life went wrong. It was not just our religious and devotional lives that were affected. The sinful condition corrpts our relationships, our health. our happiness our careers, all of our activities, along with the social, political, and economic effects we see all around us. The Bible is a good deal more realistic about the human condition than is popular American culture.

Just because humanity declared independence from God does not mean that it became independent. We can no more live independently of God than fish can of water. "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). How does it make sense that we are to rely on God for everything else except our salvation, that we can handle on our own? I would much rather place my salvation in his hands than rely on my own supossed free will. I would never have chosen God if it were up to that, I enjoyed my sinful life way to much. As we all do. We need to stop running from God and the guilt that we must all own. We cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a police officer. If we find him, or if he catches up to us, he wil expose us or who we really are. This is why Pal repeated the psalmist in lamenting, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God"(Rom. 3:11) After Christ brought his disciples to the place where they despaired of their OWN EFFORTS before God, they asked, "Who then can be saved?" and Jesus answered with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible (Matt. 19:26).

I place my life and salvation souly in God's hands for that is where it belongs. I can do nothing aside from the power of Christ in me. Adam and eve decided to rely on their "choice" for what was right instead of God's and looked what happened to them. Had they listened to God and understood His way is the only way they would have lived. Jesus said himself in the garden before his crucifxion, "not for the world, but fr those you have given me, for they are yours"(John 17:9).

 

[Brother Bob]

You all fail to realize that God uses people such as ourselves to set the heartstrings going in a person who does not believe, if you are preaching to someone you are the vessel through which God changes the person's heart. You all are so caught up in your own ability to do this or that, when you have none, scripture says you are DEAD those very words, I guess that would mean that Bob and all of you believe dead does not mean dead.

So, which is it, you or God that changes the heart of a dead man.

Calvinist don't realize what they are saying, that God creates man and then He recreates some of them to have a regenerate

heart. The regenerate is not the created man but the recreated man according to Calvinist. So, all the Scriptures are to

the whole world which is created man then which Scriptures are to the recreated man?

 

[Tom Butler]

HP: What right do we have to say “here is the spiritual analogy” concerning a Scriptural passage, when in fact no such connection is made as such in Scripture? Is not that using Scripture to our private doctrinal advantage, as opposed to interpreting it as it is plainly written? I cannot think of one time Christ or any writer used an illustration of raising one from the dead for a picture of salvation. Is such an approach to Scripture wise?

HP, I've been away from this thread for a while, sorry to delay my reply.

Just because no Bible writer specifically and directly makes the connection between raising the dead as a picture of regeneration does not mean the analogy does not exist. In fact, the analogy is so obvious that one can hardly avoid it. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Paul says Jesus quickened (made alive) us who were spiritually dead.

Quote:
Tom Butler: For the same reason, I think Calvinists ought not to label non-Calvinist Baptists as Arminian, either. They're really neither, sort of a hybrid. It does not advance the discussion by wrapping them in a label they don't want to wear.


HP: This discussion was not intended to place a label of Calvinist, or non-Calvinist on anyone. This discussion was intended to get us to examine the doctrines we hold to, and see if in fact logic does not demand that we accept the very notions we say we detest

On this we agree. Most non-Calvinist Baptist are quite inconsistent, particularly Southern Baptists. Free-Will Baptists and General Baptists are reasonably consistent, since they hold that one may obtain salvation by the exercise of the will, and may also lose it in the same way. Non-Calvinist Southern Baptists hold the same view of human will as the Free-Willers and Generals, but deny the possibility of apostasy.

If I understand your point, it is that Calvinists who deny double predestination are also logically inconsistent. I see your point, but I also see the other view, that God simpliy leaves the non-elect alone. I've yet to come down on your side, but appreciate your view.

 

[BD17]

So, which is it, you or God that changes the heart of a dead man.

Calvinist don't realize what they are saying, that God creates man and then He recreates some of them to have a regenerate

heart. The regenerate is not the created man but the recreated man according to Calvinist. So, all the Scriptures are to

the whole world which is created man then which Scriptures are to the recreated man?

So Bob when the prophets spoke God's word's in the OT were they God's or the prophets. You are so mixed up it is ridiculous. Your argument does not fly. If you hold to that argument God does nothing because He uses man to carry out His will. According to you then the Bible was not written by God because He used man to do it.