Baptist but not a Calvinist?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: I guess that would mean that Bob and all of you believe dead does not mean dead.

HP: Dead to sin does not mean unable to sin, but unwilling to sin. Dead in sin is not unable to do right, but unwilling to do right.

 

[BD17]

HP: Dead to sin does not mean unable to sin, but unwilling to sin. Dead in sin is not unable to do right, but unwilling to do right.

That is so laughable, it is ridiculous. Dead means unable to do anything, I love the new definition of dead you guys create... dead means alive but unwilling. Means you are able but unwilling. I love it somebody call websters.

Have you even looked at the greek for dead? It is necrosis. which means DEAD.

 

[BD17]

Greek for dead Nekros

necro- or necr-
pref.
Dead body; corpse: necrophilia.
Death: necrobiosis.

So dead means UNABLE not unwilling, to all definition changing free-willers out there.

 

[webdog]

That is so laughable, it is ridiculous. Dead means unable to do anything, I love the new definition of dead you guys create... dead means alive but unwilling. Means you are able but unwilling. I love it somebody call websters.

Have you even looked at the greek for dead? It is necrosis. which means DEAD.

I'm glad I'm unable to sin..."dead". Who gets the blame, then, for sin?

"The devil made me do it"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Greek for dead Nekros

necro- or necr-
pref.
Dead body; corpse: necrophilia.
Death: necrobiosis.

So dead means UNABLE not unwilling, to all definition changing free-willers out there.

Exactly! Haven't you read about the skeleton-bones scattered on the dust that came alive at God's command? Or of Lazarus who came forth from his grave at Jesus' call? Or of the fetus of an abortion picked up from the duat and nursed and made a People?

To be reborn from the death of sin is greater than to be recreated from all these impossible precedents.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BD17, have you killed the paradox, have you killed all truth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Paul says, the letter killeth, but the Spirit makes alive ---- can you define the Spirit? Then you can tell it not to blow where it willeth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Dead in sin" -- says Paul --- not just 'dead'; the first is far worse than being a corpse. It means unable to will for life or God; not unwilling, but always willing for evil. Only God can change this bondage of the will --- if He wills.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Only God can change this bondage of the will --- if He wills.

HP: …………and if He doesn’t, only God is to blame. ( not)

 

[Faith alone]

FA:
"Now I realize that no Calvinist would express it like that, but the basis for my salvation is simply that Christ died for my sin and I have trusted in Him. I may fall into sin again, though I have been changed, but his promise is secure since it does not depend on my perseverance in good works but in His finished work at the cross alone."

True; yet it is as sure the elect shall persevere in faith (and good works such as faith) even unto the end. God shall "find him faithful" in that day.

GE,

FYI, that's where we part ways. The promise is that He will raise us up at the last day. Some Christians do not live faithfully.

FA

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: …………and if He doesn’t, only God is to blame. ( not)

No! Paul says, "... we all through ADAM ..."

Man through man's own doing is guilty and liable ; sorry, you cannot put the blame on God --- in fact that was (innocent) man's very first sin --- to make God the guilty.
This is repentance, that one should acknowledge his guilt and blameworthyness, first of all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE,

FYI, that's where we part ways. The promise is that He will raise us up at the last day. Some Christians do not live faithfully.

FA

Do you really believe God is going to raise you up because of your faithful living? Or because of Christ's faithfulness in your stead? The last is Protestantism; the first, Romish error.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Do you really believe God is going to raise you up because of your faithful living? Or because of Christ's faithfulness in your stead? The last is Protestantism; the first, Romish error.

HP: GE, you have it wrong. The first is your paper duck, the last a truth in a sense, but only part of the equation. Salvation involves the will of man, without which no salvation can or will be accomplished. Salvation is not on the account of our will, but neither is it accomplished apart from our will.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: …………and if He doesn’t, only God is to blame. ( not)

GE: No! Paul says, "... we all through ADAM ..."

HP: Verse please.

GE: Man through man's own doing is guilty and liable ;

HP: I will agree, but the doctrines you promote destroy any real accountability. You might be able to place some rightful accountability on Adam, but you cannot by Scripture or reason place blame on any of his descendants due to his actions. Scripture clearly states that no man is accountable for another man’s sins, but rather every man is accountable for his own sins. The notion that all sinned in Adam is pure fallacious conjecture, not founded upon Scripture.

GE: sorry, you cannot put the blame on God --- in fact that was (innocent) man's very first sin --- to make God the guilty.

HP: If man is born incapable of making a right choice, lacking ability to do right and as such a sinner from birth, God as our Creator is responsible for the state man is born into. Adam did not create me, God did.

GE: This is repentance, that one should acknowledge his guilt and blameworthiness, first of all.

HP: No doubt repentance does involve the acknowledgement of ones sin, but that in and of itself is not that which true repentance entails. True repentance involves a change of heart and attitude towards ones sin, coupled with the determination to yield the power of ones will in the formation of intents in a proper direction.

A drunkard can recognize his problem all day long and never repent. An adulterer can acknowledge their sin and guilt and yet never be found repentant. Repentance again involves acknowledgment of ones sins, but must be coupled with the wills intents to formulate intents contrary to those seen as sinful.

 

[Faith alone]

"Dead in sin" -- says Paul --- not just 'dead'; the first is far worse than being a corpse. It means unable to will for life or God; not unwilling, but always willing for evil. Only God can change this bondage of the will --- if He wills.

GE,

Just a quick comment.

This does not mean that unregenerated people are not able to do any good at all. It also does not mean that they are unable to recognize their plight and to choose to seek the truth and to come to believe in Jesus Christ - as God draws them to His Son.

John 1:12, 13 says that we were born not due to the will of the flesh, nor that of people, but of God. But it follows vs. 12 which says that to all who receive Him - who believe in His name (already) - He gave the power to become children of God. That power follows the receiving/believing there.

So "Yes," it is true that no one can regenerate themselves by their own strength of will. But they can respond to the gospel and God will then regenerate them. The passage is expressed as an appeal to unbelievers to choose to receive Christ as God's Son. So we need to be cautious that we do not say that we cannot respond to this appeal.

If I say that I can choose Christ, ignoring the work of God in this, I am out of balance, ignoring that this text, and others, say regarding God's work. But if I say that I cannot even choose Christ unless I have first been changed/regenerated by God, that does not agree with what this text clearly says, and we are again out of balance. That's where the balance is in this issue, IMO. And we must maintain balance here.

CYL,

FA

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FA: So "Yes," it is true that no one can regenerate themselves by their own strength of will. But they can respond to the gospel and God will then regenerate them. The passage is expressed as an appeal to unbelievers to choose to receive Christ as God's Son. So we need to be cautious that we do not say that we cannot respond to this appeal.

If I say that I can choose Christ, ignoring the work of God in this, I am out of balance, ignoring that this text, and others, say regarding God's work. But if I say that I cannot even choose Christ unless I have first been changed/regenerated by God, that does not agree with what this text clearly says, and we are again out of balance. That's where the balance is in this issue, IMO. And we must maintain balance here.

HP: Now here is a voice of reason. I have a question in light of what you have said. Is it not true that if all men can indeed respond to the gospel before being regenerated that they must of necessity have the ‘abilities’ to do so, and that it is not ‘abilities to respond’ that grace delivers, for the abilities needed are universally held, but rather the ‘opportunity to respond’ that is ‘undeserved’, and as such truly grace, in light of their willful and selfish formed intents?

 

[Faith alone]

HP: Now here is a voice of reason. I have a question in light of what you have said. Is it not true that if all men can indeed respond to the gospel before being regenerated that they must of necessity have the ‘abilities’ to do so, and that it is not ‘abilities to respond’ that grace delivers, for the abilities needed are universally held, but rather the ‘opportunity to respond’ that is ‘undeserved’, and as such truly grace, in light of their willful and selfish formed intents?

Excellent HP.

God has created us such that we can respond to His workings. But unless God draws us to Himself, we will not respond. So it is more than just the opportunity IMO, but God draws and woos us toward His Son.

FA

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FA: God has created us such that we can respond to His workings. But unless God draws us to Himself, we will not respond. So it is more than just the opportunity IMO, but God draws and woos us toward His Son.

HP: I have but a short time today to post unless the rain continues. I see the opportunity presented as synonymous with the drawing. I see abilities to respond as universally given, for without such abilities it could not be just for God to require man to obey upon pain of punishment. Therefore I see abilities granted as universal and a matter of justice, whereas I see the opportunity for salvation an act of undeserved grace.

As we continue from time to time to converse I believe we will both come to a closer understanding of each other and to the truth. I sure appreciate your posts. Thanks for taking the time to respond on this holiday.

I have some outside fence that I must attend to, again if the ran stops. (and possibly a little fishing later on as well )

 

[Faith alone]

HP: I have but a short time today to post unless the rain continues. I see the opportunity presented as synonymous with the drawing. I see abilities to respond as universally given, for without such abilities it could not be just for God to require man to obey upon pain of punishment. Therefore I see abilities granted as universal and a matter of justice, whereas I see the opportunity for salvation an act of undeserved grace.

As we continue from time to time to converse I believe we will both come to a closer understanding of each other and to the truth. I sure appreciate your posts. Thanks for taking the time to respond on this holiday.

I have some outside fence that I must attend to, again if the ran stops. (and possibly a little fishing later on as well )

Could be, though I imagine there's more to it than that.

But John 6:44, 45 says...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me

So the gospel message is out opportunity, and how we respond to it is critical. Yet He did choose us before heeven created the world. It says that in at least 3 places that i am aware.

FA
[/FONT]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FA: Could be, though I imagine there's more to it than that.

But John 6:44, 45 says...

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me

So the gospel message is about opportunity, and how we respond to it is critical. Yet He did choose us before heaven created the world. It says that in at least 3 places that I am aware.

HP: If the unsaved individual does not have the gospel presented to them, and the Holy Spirit does not convict them of sin and reveal to them their need, no salvation is possible. Once we have violated the law of God, we are condemned by the law, and nothing other than acceptance of the atonement of Christ on our behalf, by fulfilling the conditions of repentance and faith, can one be saved. That is what I see that verse implying.

What I do not see that verse implying is that God has to grant a dead log floating down the stream the ability needed to respond to the offer of grace. There is nothing in the word ‘draw or drawing’ that necessitated the notion of granted abilities. I believe all men have the necessary abilities to respond to God granted to them as necessitated means requisite of moral agency. It is not abilities grace needs to bring, but opportunity and influence.

In the matter of choosing us before He created the world, that does not necessitate the outcome. God foreknows matter of perfect choice, and due to His omniscience and foreknowledge understands perfectly the choices we will make, without necessitating the outcome. The only alternative to that is to accept fatalism with all its ugly necessitated logical ends, which can land you no where but God as the author of all evil and the predestination of the damned. I cannot accept either of those as Scriptural or within the bounds of reason.

I pray that you will have a wonderful week in the classroom, and that by your life’s example others might desire to come to know the God of your salvation.