Bill Brown
New Member
My dispensational brethren aside, I wonder how many Baptists on this board hold to historic premil (as expressed by Eldon Ladd), postmil or amil?
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Baptist Eschatology
- Thread starter Bill Brown
- Start date
Bill Brown said:
Hi.
Amil.
Tom Butler
New Member
Bill Brown said:
I'm historic pre-mil today, but maybe not tomorrow. If not historic pre-mil, I'd probably lean toward A-mil.
I have an Amillenium view, but if God does it different then that's ok, He knows better than me how He's planned the future.
Regards
Bob
Regards
Bob
Bill Brown said:
Mr. Brown,
Hi, I'm a Theology student undergraduate. I've yet to tackle this issue. I came to the Lord about 2 years ago and since I've been filling my heart and mind with His Word, spending hours a day in His Word. That being said, is Amellinialism a singular rapture/advent of Christ? I know how elementary this question is for all of you! Please be patient with an earnest heart to learn. I do, however, believe in a distinct rapture, then great tribulation, followed by Christ's Second Parousia.
Welcome mmetts! :godisgood: Glad to hear from an aspiring eschatologist!mmetts said:
What you believe is premil, pretrib and that seems to be what the Bible prescribes. Amil would be that there is no millennial kingdom. The world just gets better and better until we usher in Christ's eternal kingdom. You've no doubt heard it --- we are just waiting now for Jesus to come back and set up His kingdom.
skypair
skypair said:
Find us an amilennialist on the net or on this board who says "the world just gets better and better until we usher in Christ's eternal kingdom",
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On theologyweb.com:pinoybaptist said:
"the "optimism" for the Amillennialist usually disappears regarding events in the future on earth prior to the second coming of Christ. There Amills become as pessimistic as Dispensationalists.
There are of course a few exceptions such as Cornelus Venema and R.B. Kuiper. The latter expressed his Amill optimism in the last chapter of his book, For Whom Did Christ Die? by adopting the "Eschatological Universalism" of postmillennialist, B.B. Warfield."
On banneroftruth.org:
"Unlike many amillennialists, Venema takes very seriously the biblical promises of the power of the Holy Spirit in the spread of the Gospel. He expects widespread conversion to Christ across the world. He expects the conversion of the Jews to Christ. He expects the kingdom of Christ to gradually overcome the kingdom of Satan."
First and foremost, I'm another category, altogether.
I'm a "pan-millenialist!" Or as another way of saying it would be, a "play-millenialist."
(This is not to be confused with some A-Millenialists, who wants to 'play' with the actual wording in Scripture, and the normal sense of the words "thousand years", in Revelation, and elsewhere.)
If you've never heard of that before, the tenets of this are extremely simple.
As the history of Israel, the Gentiles, the church, and the world "play out", everything is going to "pan out" in the end, just as God has intended, and all of it, for His glory!
Ed
I'm a "pan-millenialist!" Or as another way of saying it would be, a "play-millenialist."
(This is not to be confused with some A-Millenialists, who wants to 'play' with the actual wording in Scripture, and the normal sense of the words "thousand years", in Revelation, and elsewhere.)
If you've never heard of that before, the tenets of this are extremely simple.
As the history of Israel, the Gentiles, the church, and the world "play out", everything is going to "pan out" in the end, just as God has intended, and all of it, for His glory!
Ed
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Jerome said:
Thank you, Jerome. But, again, note that the only one you found so far is Venema (of whom I was aware of) whose view was largely influenced by someone who is on the opposite spectrum: Warfield. And therefore he cannot be made a yardstick for all amillenialists.
But to make a sweeping statement as that made by the other guy here is to my mind a wrong thing to do.
Jerome said:
You're right, and I concede that point.
I guess my real issue is the seeming sweeping statement made by the other guy.
What pinoy is referring to below my post is that amils don't believe in a lteral 1000 year reign. As I said, He comes to set up His ETERNAL kingdom -- which apparently replaces or does away with God's kingdom of New Heaven and New Earth that succeeds Christ's 1000 years.mmetts said:
skypair
convicted1
Guest
RE: A-mil or Pre-mill
I am not for sure if A-mil means no Millienial Kingdom or not, but if it does, then I am A-mil. My problem with the MK is that we all know that God is a spirit, and He seeketh such that worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.....no other way we can worship Him. We know that Jesus is His Son, and that He is a Spirit now. The Holy Ghost(Spirit) is a/The Spirit. Why would these three need a "NATURAL" kingdom? Please don't climb up my back because of "my" belief". It's my opinion, and in no way, do I mean to offend those who believe in the MK. I believe that when time comes to an end, Jesus will come with 10,000 of His angels, and execute judgement to the Just and unjust, then we will go to be with Him in Heaven. The main thing is, that I am ready to go when He calls me HOME!! Glory to Jesus Christ, the One who died for a wretch like me!! Praise His High and Holy name!!
I am not for sure if A-mil means no Millienial Kingdom or not, but if it does, then I am A-mil. My problem with the MK is that we all know that God is a spirit, and He seeketh such that worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.....no other way we can worship Him. We know that Jesus is His Son, and that He is a Spirit now. The Holy Ghost(Spirit) is a/The Spirit. Why would these three need a "NATURAL" kingdom? Please don't climb up my back because of "my" belief". It's my opinion, and in no way, do I mean to offend those who believe in the MK. I believe that when time comes to an end, Jesus will come with 10,000 of His angels, and execute judgement to the Just and unjust, then we will go to be with Him in Heaven. The main thing is, that I am ready to go when He calls me HOME!! Glory to Jesus Christ, the One who died for a wretch like me!! Praise His High and Holy name!!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
When I was in college, I was A-mil because all of my Bible mentors were A-mil. Years later, one of those mentors that I stayed in touch with gave my wife a book entitled "Know What You Believe" by Paul Little. My wife had asked him a theological question and he assumed that she didn't understand the basics of the faith.
Anyway, my friend (at that point a Baptist pastor) endorsed the book but cautioned my wife on the chapter regarding last things stating that the author goes off the deep end on this subject. This made me curious and I found myself studying the claims of the various "mils" and so I ended up being a pre-mil pre trib dispensationalist much to the dismay of my old friend.
As of this time I have not been persuaded by the arguments against my position. I acknowledge that many of the greats of the faith are A-mil and some of the flakes of the faith are pre-mil pre-trib
Anyway, my friend (at that point a Baptist pastor) endorsed the book but cautioned my wife on the chapter regarding last things stating that the author goes off the deep end on this subject. This made me curious and I found myself studying the claims of the various "mils" and so I ended up being a pre-mil pre trib dispensationalist much to the dismay of my old friend.
As of this time I have not been persuaded by the arguments against my position. I acknowledge that many of the greats of the faith are A-mil and some of the flakes of the faith are pre-mil pre-trib
mmetts, welcome to the board.
I've heard/read much of the "conflicting(?)" evidence for pre, mid, post, A, etc, etc, etc.
ANYONE of these views can be "PROVED" with the proper selection of scripture and biased interpretation.
I am totally pre all the way simply because, to me, the literal interpretation comes closest to this view.
Please note that I said CLOSEST, and that is because if it were as cut & dried as some say, there would (could?) be no controversy.
All the preceding is to say that as you've probably noticed if you've been reading this BB more than a few days, this topic (along with a few other topics) can generate some vicious animosity to different views.
There are some well thought out & reseached posts that you can glean much from, so don't let the pit bulls discourage you.
Best thing is to simply ignore those that want to incite rather than debate; hard to do? You bet, but it's better on your blood pressure!
I firmly believe that God said exactly what He meant, so just because I do not understand a passage, I do not try to re-form what God said to suit my agenda; I accept it simply as a part of His word that I just "don't understand" right now. And if it "conflicts" with other scripture, then I figure that I am not interpreting one or the other -- or either -- as He meant.
So hang in there and let the Holy Spirit guide you, rather than another man's opinion.
I've heard/read much of the "conflicting(?)" evidence for pre, mid, post, A, etc, etc, etc.
ANYONE of these views can be "PROVED" with the proper selection of scripture and biased interpretation.
I am totally pre all the way simply because, to me, the literal interpretation comes closest to this view.
Please note that I said CLOSEST, and that is because if it were as cut & dried as some say, there would (could?) be no controversy.
All the preceding is to say that as you've probably noticed if you've been reading this BB more than a few days, this topic (along with a few other topics) can generate some vicious animosity to different views.
There are some well thought out & reseached posts that you can glean much from, so don't let the pit bulls discourage you.
Best thing is to simply ignore those that want to incite rather than debate; hard to do? You bet, but it's better on your blood pressure!
I firmly believe that God said exactly what He meant, so just because I do not understand a passage, I do not try to re-form what God said to suit my agenda; I accept it simply as a part of His word that I just "don't understand" right now. And if it "conflicts" with other scripture, then I figure that I am not interpreting one or the other -- or either -- as He meant.
So hang in there and let the Holy Spirit guide you, rather than another man's opinion.
Not to take sides, but to clarify
Dispensational Pre-mil believe in a snatching away of the church before a 7-year period of judgment, followed by a literal millenial kingdom, followed by heaven
Historical Pre-mils have several varieties, but generally they believe in a literal millenial kingdom, but with a post-trib rapture.
There are a small number of adherents to the "pre-wrath" rapture, that sort of bridge the gap between the first two.
Amils do not believe in a literal 1000-year reign, they believe that the church has superceded and replaced Israel totally, and that Israel is a "dead letter." They do not believe the church is going too conquer the world and they are post-trib, though they often don't believe in a literal 7-year tribulation period.
The post-mils believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom brought in by the church conquering the world, follwed by the return of Christ after the 1000 year reign. A militant few believe that the church should be prepared to militarily conquer, [nice guys, those!] while others see it as the Spirit conquering all through the Gospel.
Not to mention the mid-tribs, who are usually pentecostal, and the nut cases, which are innumerable (the mother ship is waiting...)
Dispensational Pre-mil believe in a snatching away of the church before a 7-year period of judgment, followed by a literal millenial kingdom, followed by heaven
Historical Pre-mils have several varieties, but generally they believe in a literal millenial kingdom, but with a post-trib rapture.
There are a small number of adherents to the "pre-wrath" rapture, that sort of bridge the gap between the first two.
Amils do not believe in a literal 1000-year reign, they believe that the church has superceded and replaced Israel totally, and that Israel is a "dead letter." They do not believe the church is going too conquer the world and they are post-trib, though they often don't believe in a literal 7-year tribulation period.
The post-mils believe in a literal 1000 year kingdom brought in by the church conquering the world, follwed by the return of Christ after the 1000 year reign. A militant few believe that the church should be prepared to militarily conquer, [nice guys, those!] while others see it as the Spirit conquering all through the Gospel.
Not to mention the mid-tribs, who are usually pentecostal, and the nut cases, which are innumerable (the mother ship is waiting...)
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just-want-peace said:
Very well said. And I agree. An honest heart desiring God's direction in his study of these things which does not try to force one view or the other onto Scripture will come away with a good understanding. Granted,....that undestanding will be imperfect and there will be apparent problems, but if that man truly trusts God and not his own understanding, he will find that God will direct his paths.
God bless your study my friend.