I will let you take that thought up with Elder John Leland when you meet him in Glory.
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Baptist Hall Of Shame
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
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Here is a list of people I hate.
Hey, who are the guys you do like?
Well, simple folks you would have never heard of, cause if you would have heard of them they must have had to compromise some vital doctrine in order to be heard of by anyone outside of their local church.
Nice ... do you feel better now? Do you feel sufficently superior to everyone else now?
Hey, who are the guys you do like?
Well, simple folks you would have never heard of, cause if you would have heard of them they must have had to compromise some vital doctrine in order to be heard of by anyone outside of their local church.
Nice ... do you feel better now? Do you feel sufficently superior to everyone else now?
imported_J.R. Graves
New Member
Mark O. does have a point about the Civil Rights movement hurting black Baptist churches in one sense. A few years ago the Baptist History and Heritage journal published an article on Landmarkism among black Baptist Churches. The author was a non-landmark black professor at a midwestern college. (His name slips my mind) The author admitted the Civil Rights movement changed black Baptist churches. One example he used was the black Baptist Churches in the Lexington, KY area. At some point (I think in the 60's) some of the white Baptist Churches in the Lexington area proposed a merger with the black Baptist churches. The black Baptists refused because not one of their churches received alien immersion and several of the white churches did. The author of this jounral article gives many other examples of the former doctrinal orthodoxy among black Baptists and then shows the downfall of this. When the civil rights movement began many black leaders, including Martin Luther King's brother, who was a Baptist pastor in Louisville, KY began joining with all denomenations for the sake of civil rights. Also at the same time many black Baptist preacher stopped preaching on doctrine and concentrated on civil rights preaching. The effect was a gradual watering down of Baptist distinctives among black Baptist churches and I think is one of the main reasons pentecostalism is so strong among blacks churches.
This is not to say the civil rights movment was right or wrong, but to show a by-product of it was the weaking of doctrine in many black Baptist churches.
This is not to say the civil rights movment was right or wrong, but to show a by-product of it was the weaking of doctrine in many black Baptist churches.
It may be right to say Martin Luther King was a great civil rights leader who righted some wrongs here in the South. (A MLK day is a little overkill however)
King is not a great Baptist but a great Civil Rights leader. My understanding is theologically that King was liberal in his theology in the same way as noted apostate Baptist Harry Emerson Fosidick.
King is not a great Baptist but a great Civil Rights leader. My understanding is theologically that King was liberal in his theology in the same way as noted apostate Baptist Harry Emerson Fosidick.
All that proves is that throughout history preachers have been involved in things they had no business being involved in. The Lord's kingdom is not of this world and the Lord's ministry is not a political ministry.
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]So are you saying that Jesus was never involved in social issues? Are you saying Jesus never took a stance against anything?
Israel was one huge social issue.
So you don't believe
James 1:27, "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."
and
James 2:14-16, "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"
For the Hall of Shame I nominate: (drum rolls)
JM Carroll
and assuming that he actually is a baptist Jack Chick.
As for MLK, anybody unwise enough to suggest including him in the baptist Hall of Shame deserves to be flamed.
If there ever was a guy who deserves a spot in the section of the Baptist Hall of Fame dedicated to great men who just happened to be baptists, it's him.
JM Carroll
and assuming that he actually is a baptist Jack Chick.
As for MLK, anybody unwise enough to suggest including him in the baptist Hall of Shame deserves to be flamed.
If there ever was a guy who deserves a spot in the section of the Baptist Hall of Fame dedicated to great men who just happened to be baptists, it's him.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
GB, Those are not political Scriptures. Those are Scriptures about what YOU and I are supposed to do.
Mark Osgatharp
Plain Old Bill
New Member
Jesus quarrel was mainly with those who belonged to the Sanhedrin, they were the sadducees and the pharisees who were the big time preachers of the day.For Israel they were the big time politicians also.
If you're a liberal, you think commands like "visit widows and orphans" and "feed the hungry, clothe the naked,..." should be legislated morality, while others like "Pray without ceasing" and "he who does not work shall not eat" should not be, as that would be legislating morality, which you only favor with the first set of examples.
If you're a conservative, it is, of course, the opposite-- make prayer a mandate of government bodies, but reduce and eventually phase out 'welfare,' or reward for sloth.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I don't have too many specific baptists on my list but I believe those who have brought the most shame to Baptists and Christ are:
1. Every Baptist involved in the KKK
2. Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church
3. Jack Chick if he is a baptist
4. Dr. Dino of Creation Science Evangelism
5. Jerry Falwell and his foot-in-mouth comments
6. Peter Ruckman and the extreme wing of the KJVO movement
1. Every Baptist involved in the KKK
2. Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church
3. Jack Chick if he is a baptist
4. Dr. Dino of Creation Science Evangelism
5. Jerry Falwell and his foot-in-mouth comments
6. Peter Ruckman and the extreme wing of the KJVO movement
Bro. Mark, I am curious about 2 things.
1. Is your concern about Spurgeon influencing modern Baptists back toward Calvinism? As far as his influence in his own day, I think you may be incorrect. Spurgeon was much less Calvinistic and more evangelistic than most of the British & American Baptists before him, and therefore might have actually influenced folks toward moderating their Calvinism. I wouldn't say that for certain, but it's worth considering. In his latter days, he was unsuccessful in stemming the tide of modernism and (rank) Arminianism during the "Downgrade Controversy". He was an extremely popular preacher in his day, but his doctrinal and denominational influence is possibly greater today than during his lifetime.
2. I wonder why Billy Graham did not make your top ten?
Robert V.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Brother Vaughn,
As I said, Spurgeon taught Calvinism by his example. It is not so much that people read Spurgeon's writings and are influenced by them. It's more, "Spurgeon was a Calvinist and he was so great, therefore I am justified in being a Calvinist."
As for Billy Graham, perhaps he should have been in the top ten. I really didn't give him that much thought, but now that you mention him, he probably could have vied for number one. I did, however, include him in those who could have made the list.
Mark Osgatharp
As I said, Spurgeon taught Calvinism by his example. It is not so much that people read Spurgeon's writings and are influenced by them. It's more, "Spurgeon was a Calvinist and he was so great, therefore I am justified in being a Calvinist."
As for Billy Graham, perhaps he should have been in the top ten. I really didn't give him that much thought, but now that you mention him, he probably could have vied for number one. I did, however, include him in those who could have made the list.
Mark Osgatharp
If a person is a "Calvinist" solely because of Brother Spurgeon's position, then they unmitigated fools. And you can't blame Brother Spurgeon for them.
GB, Those are not political Scriptures. Those are Scriptures about what YOU and I are supposed to do.
Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]You are right. That means as believers we are supposed to be involved in people's lives. That is a social event. It is much more than intellectual gnosticism.
Jesus did speak to the politicians when he condemned the Pharisees.
If I remember right in the bok of Acts Paul shared the gospel with the politicians. Isn't that political, theological and eternal?
Thanks, Bro. Mark. I will take it from your answer then that you do indeed mean influencing people in our day - unless you correct than understanding in a subsequent post.
I think we need to be careful about putting someone in a top ten worst based on such. The same reasoning would put our friend J. R. Graves (James Robison Graves - not Ben who posts under that name, or John R. Graves or whoever Hardsheller mentioned on the first page) in that category - or at least the top ten worst Landmarkers. He was clearly a Calvinist (of about the same degree as Spurgeon) and at the least influences by example Landmarkers to consider going down that path.
I think we need to be careful about putting someone in a top ten worst based on such. The same reasoning would put our friend J. R. Graves (James Robison Graves - not Ben who posts under that name, or John R. Graves or whoever Hardsheller mentioned on the first page) in that category - or at least the top ten worst Landmarkers. He was clearly a Calvinist (of about the same degree as Spurgeon) and at the least influences by example Landmarkers to consider going down that path.
Plain Old Bill
New Member
Well I guess my next question would be do you think any of these men were saved? If you do are you going to make an apology when you see them in heavem?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I think if they are saved
that some are going to have to apologize
to them. It is one think to denote a tinge
of gray and quite something else to have
that tinge of gray make them black
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Hardsheller -- Preach it!
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