Baptist Purgatory

$17.00 for Craig's book is an absolute steal. I remember searching and searching for it before Schoettle put it on the internet. (We live in an awsome time.) I paid over twice that amount for an old beat up copy.

Lacy

 

OK guys....have I got this right?Is DeafPostTrib saying that once you get saved (by faith I assume) you then have to WORK to stay that way?Is that what he is saying?That sounds like her****.

Greg Sr.(If not...I apologize)

 

I already been reading that book 77 pages so far. But, I have to go to work tonight - 3rd shift.

By the way, I already see there are so LOT of errors of S.S. Craig's interpreting Scriptures while I reading 77 pages so far. There is only 95 pages remain left to read. I am not surprise that I do expecting that I might not agree with S.S. Craig's inteptering Scripture.

I am not yet make post by quote from his book, what he saying of Scripture. When after I finish reading that book tomorrow, I will make post to reply back to you and show you of many things that I do not agree with S.S. Craig's interpreting.

So, please be patience with me.

Greg,

There is so much confusion between 'faith' and 'work' for example - Eph. 2:8-9.

Tomorrow, I will discuss more about faith & work, what the Scripture saith.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I done reading book - 'The Dualism of Eternal Life'.

There are so many things that I do not agree with his intepreting.

He talked lot on Eschatology and Soteriology doctrine.

I read of Introduction. Very interesting, he mentioned about the two classes of millennial position. He said, the two classes of millennial position are: Premillennial and Postmillennial. He wrote that book in year 1916. He does not say anything about amillennialism.

Two years ago, I brought a book 'A Case for Amillennialism' by Kim Riddlebarger. In page 31, he says, Amillennialism was not recognized as millennial position until around the turn of the 20th century. Dutch statesman and theologian Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) probably was the first person to use the term - 'amillennial'.

S.S. Craig wrote of that book in year 1916. I learned that postmillennialism was popular and large class among churches in America during 18th century and 19th century. Till year from 1914 to 1917, World War I occured, postmillennialism suddenly declined or collapsed. Because postmill teaches, Church revolutionized world into Christianity or better condtional. Postmill does not believe apostasy prior the end of the world.

Amill might be the young class during 20th Century.

But, same idea as posttrib class. Many Christians like baptists think posttribulation class or camp is a youung doctrine, it appeared during in the mid of 20th century.

Actually, posttrib doctrine is very, very old since back to Christ's time of his ministry on earth. During Early Church history, Christians believe there is the only one coming of Christ at the end of the age. It was not necesscary for them to saying, "I am posttrib", because there was no position of rapture timing till in the late 19th Century.

When John N. Darby visited America 6 times in year between 1850's to 1860's. He taught pretribulation rapture to churches in America. Many Christians begun to adopt Darby's teaching. Then, in year 1878, there was a prophecy conference hosts in Niagara. Few pastors, and evangelists attended that conference. Liked the new teaching of pretribulationism doctrine. That how pretribulationism doctrine was born in America around year 1880's.

During that period, the popular of premillennialism in America was growing so slowly. Till year around 1900's, C.I. Scofield's teaching was influenced upon churches in America. Then the popular of premillennialism increasing so rapidly around year 1920's, thank to Clarence Larkin's chart book - 'Dispensational Truth'. Many churches and colleges use Larkin's chart book.

Interesting, during 18th century and 19th century, in America, there was very, very rare or small group of Christians were premill. Mostly Christians were amill or postmill.

Till in the mid of 19th Century, Darby visited America, himself was strong premillennialist.

Many Christians are aware that Darby was the Father of Dispensationalism. Because Darby taught there are distinction between Israel and Church.

Now, I would like to quote S.S. Craig's teaching, many things that I do not agree with his teaching.

S.S. Craig mentioned on a young rich man lot in his book. He believed that a young rich man is saved. I strongly disagree with him. He quoted about a young rich man from Luke 18:18-30.

Earlier I already discuss on Matt. 19:16-25 about a young rich man in this topic.

No wonder, that James Newman gaves the link of the article to me, that article mentioned on young rich man. Now I know why Newman gave it to me by post in this topic.

Mr. Craig said:

I disagree with him. What about Pharisees? There are many records in the four gospels that, Pharisees came to Jesus, and ask questions. Are Pharisees saved? Same with a young rich man came to Christ, that does not prove that himself was true saved. During Christ's ministry, a person came to Christ by asking questions, that do not mean that a person is already saved or not.

Craig said:

I am no doubt that a young rich man was been honest and truthful by asked question to Christ. But, this passage does not prove us that a young rich man is saved.

Many religions include baptists are doing serve and good works for the Lord today, but that do not mean they are saved just like as a young rich man. Many religions are eager to serve the Lord by obeying the Lord, and keeping the commandments, just like as a young rich man kept the commandments. Many religions do keeping the commandments, but that do not mean that they are saved.

In Matt. 7:21-22 telling us, many religions do their works by obey the commandments, and they actually serve the Lord, same as baptists do. But, Lord shall saying to them, He never know them, depart them from him, cast them into everlasting fire. Why? Because Christ said, "depart from me, ye that work - INIQUITY." - Matt. 7:23. Word, 'iniquity' means wicked or sinful. Many religions include baptists doing serve the Lord by obeying the commandments, but they do not repent of their sins, or remain in wicked ways of their life. That why Christ will send them to everlasting life because of without repentance.

A young rich man asked Christ, what things he can do to have eternal life.

Eternal life never so called, 'Messianic Kingdom' or 'Millennial Kingdom'. Because during Christ's ministry on earth, a young rich man never hear of premillennial doctrine, that doctrine was not yet existed till during Reformation Period(year around 1500's A,D.). Also, a young rich man never hear of 'a thousand years of kingdom', because none of this teaching find anywhere in the Old testament books (New Testament books were not yet canon together till about 300 years later after Christ's ministry). A young man never think of 'a thousand years' while he asked Christ. A young rich man desired want to know how can have eternal life, obivously, he was asking Christ about after his death for eternal life. I am sure that a young rich man must have believed in resurrection. Scribes or Sadducees, (I am not sure which one of them) do not believe in resurrection.

Christ told man, if he desires to have eternal life, then he have to obey the commandements, just like as Christ commanded us to obey his commandments - John 14:15.

Then, a young rich man asked Christ, what thing, he miss to do thing to have eternal life. Then, Christ told him, he have to give up everything what he have, and to sell things to poor people, come and follow Christ.

A young man bittered, and walked away from Christ. Was a rich man saved? NO! S.S. Criag believed a rich young man is saved.

John 10:27-29 teaching us very clear, Christ promises us, if any person hear his voice(commandment & gospel) and FOLLOW, no one include Satan can take person away from Christ's hand, Christ have his power to hold person of salvation long as person still follow Christ. OR.... if a person stopped follow Christ, Christ could loose person out of his hand.

That mean, a person was once follow Christ, then turn away, a person become lost (Luke 15:32), is on the way to everlasting fire.

Criag said:

Salvation is not yet offically or being guaranteed by believing. Believing means to continue believe. Or, if a person stopped believing, then shall be cut off - John 15:6 & Romans 11:20.

Criag quoted Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13, he said:

Christ never saying of Matt. 24:13, that if a person does not endure to the end, then shall not be saved-miss "Messianic Kingdom". That was Criag's own intepreting. I disagree with him.

Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13 both are clearly warn us, if we do not endure all the way to our death, then we shall not be saved - not have eternal life, go to everlasting fire.

Craig said:

Matt. 18:3 says nothing about millennial kingdom, because Christ does not saying, 'a thousand years'. Also, 'the kingdom of heaven' never so called, 'Messianic Kingdom' or 'Millennial Kingdom'.

Matt. 18:3 tells us, we must be repent of sins, to have eternal life, that's simple.

Craig used young ruler and Peter by comparing them, that he said, both are saved in the page 30. No way, that Craig can prove that a rich man is saved, because he already turn away from the Lord.

Craig intepreted 'shall inherit everlasting life' & 'the age(world-KJV) to come eternal life' of Matt. 19:29 & Mark 10:30. That he said, both are speak of Messianic Kingdom(1000 year kingdom) in page 31.

Both Matt. 19:29 & Mark 10:30 do not saying, 'a thousand years'. Both are clearly speak of eternality life.

Craig said:

Christ never saying of Matt. 24:13 that a person shall be saved for Messianic Kingdom. Simple, Christ telling us, that we must be endure all the way to the end(our death) then shall be saved - have eternal life. Also, Christ does not saying, 'a thousand years' of Matt. 24:13.

Craig intepreted John 3:16, he said:

(emphasis mine)

His intepreting does not make a sense to me. Christ simple telling us, anyone whosoever believing on Christ shall never perish, but have eternal life. Eternal life simple means everlasting - no end, and being immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-57). Many Christians can easy understand reading John 3:16 telling us, that if any perosn believing on Jesus Christ shall never go hell, but have eternal life - heaven. Craig should use his good common sense what Christ was talking about of John 3:16.

Craig continued discuss on John 3:16 in the same page:

(emphasis mine)

Christ never saying of John 3:16 that if any person do not believe on Christ, shall miss "Messianic Kingdom"-1000 year kingdom.

Criag mentioned of 'Five Facts' in the page 48, he said:

.

Paul never saying so called, 'two classes' or 'two groups' of Christians.

Of course, the book of Romans was written for Christians. Understand, Romans 8:13-14 was given with warning to Christians, IF we walk after the flesh, we shall die, that means if we walk after sins, our spiritual will be die- lost of Luke 15:32.

Craig continued in the same page:

.

The kingdom of heaven never so called, 'Messianic Kingdom' or 'Millennial Kingdom', because, both passages do not saying, 'a thousand years'. Both passages simple telling us, a person cannot have eternal life, go into everlasting fire- lake of fire.

Craig said:

I disagree. Heb. 10:17 is not just speak for the Jews of Israel only, also, it apply to the Church both Jews and Gentiles, this verse is speak of Calvary, that Christ forgived all our sins away, that's simple.

I better stop now, because of toooo long post. I will continue in the next post for Part two of his book.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

To be continued...

Craig says of Romans 11:14-24:

Romans 11:14-24 say nothing anything about 'Messianic Kingdom' or 'Millennial Kingdom', because, this passage does not saying 'a thousand years'. This passage is speak of the warning to us, if we stop believing, we shall be cut off - lost and cast into everlasting fire same with John 15:6.

Cause for now. Craig's view of 'eternal' - "age-lasting" means temporary. I disagree. Bible never saying of 'eternal' means temporary. Many Christians can easily understand 'eternal' simple means forver.

Criag emphais of 'eternal' by use Greek word. I know very, very little of Greek. But use my common sense, what I reading a verse in grammar or sentence, what it is talking about. I easily understand what a verse talking about. I have no problem with verses, what these are talking about. By the way, I am not saying that I ignore Greek. Of course, we should look at Greek word for English Bible. Because, English Bible(KJV) was translated come from Greek. That why Criag emphasis word 'eternal' by look in Greek to explain it the correctly defintion word.

Craig quoted Hebrews 3:6, He said:

The author of Hebrews 3:6, does not saying that the word, 'hope' is speak of "Messianic Kingdom" or "Millennial Kingdom", because, it does not saying, 'a thousand years'.

Heb. 3:6 tells us very clear, it promises us, that we are Christ's child, IF we hold fast(endure) the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. That mean, we ought to be endure all the way through our life till death, then shall be saved same with Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13. "Hope" of Hebrews 3:6 is speak of our looking forward for our body all shall be change into immortality and eternal life according Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23; Titus 1:2; 2:13; and 3:7.

Craig said:

That is wrongly accuse against postmills(include amills).

Many Protestants, Reformers love the Lord, love to read the Bible. We cannot be expecting that every Christians have the same view, interpreting, belief on God's Word. But, the most important basic thing, that both postmills, premills, include amills all believe in Jesus Christ, that He died on the cross for them.

Craig quoted Luke 12:32, he said:

Christ does not saying 'a thousand years' of Luke 12:32. Christ tells us, that we have good news, our Father give blessing unto us of the kingdom from above.

Craig quoted Hebrews 6:9-20, he said:

.

Craig said of Heb. 6:15 - 'promise' is for Millennial inheritance.

Hebrews 6:9-20 never saying of 'a thousand years'. This passage is talking about our faith, hope, and to be endure till the end for our eternal life and have everlasting inheritance from God - New Jerusalem, and new earth and dwell with Christ.

Craig discussed of the book of Hebrews in the page 53, he listed of 6 things about Hebrews:

That's correct, I agree with him.

He continued,

Hebrews 12:14 say nothing of 'a thousand years'.

He continued,

That is correct. I agree with him.

He continued,

That is correct. I agree with him.

He continue,

I disagree. Hebrews 6:4-8 say nothing about millennial kingdom, because it does not saying 'a thousand years'. Heb. 6:4-8 warn us, if we falling away, and will lose our tasting of illuminate of salvation, and at the end , we shall be burned - cast into everlasting fire(vs. 8).

Craig said, this passage warning us, if any person falling away, will miss the millennial kingdom, shall suffering in the hell during millennial kingdom. This passage say nothing about Messianic Kingdom or Millennial Kingdom, because it does not saying, 'a thousand years'.

Craig continued discuss on book of Hebrews, he said:

Book of Hebrews do not saying anything about "Messianic" kingdom or Millennial kingdom, because nowhere in the book of Hebrews mentioned of 'a thousand years'.

Book of Hebrews teaching us, about the lesson of Israel what happened to them during in the wilderness with Moses for 40 years, they were cut off or can not enter the land of Canaan as "rest", because of their disbelief and heart hardened. It warns us, that we should not be like them.

No doubt, I believe most of people with Moses who were leave out of Egypt, are now in hell, because of their disbelief and heart hardened.

Few of the people who left from Egypt, entered the land of Canaan are now in the heaven, not only limited - Joshua and Caleb, also, more people, more likely about 20% of them even include Moses too.

Moses' brother Aaron died during wilderness, I am no doubt that he is now in heaven, not because of failed to enter Canaan, because of his believing, and lived righteousness. Same with Moses. Moses disobeyed God by strike with the rod against the rock twice. God told Moses, that he cannot enter the land of Canaan. But, that does not mean Moses is in hell because of disobey. Understand, after Moses strike rock twice, he did repented of his sins, and he continued believing in God till his death.

When I was a student at Midwestern Baptist College in year 1991. I took Pentateuch Class. I remembered the teacher taught us about people of Israel in the wilderness. He said, suiving in the wilderness is the picture of spiritual warfare and walking of Christian life. People entered the land of Canaan, he said of Canaan is a type of heaven as rest. I agree with him. Understand, that college is very strong premill and pretrib.

Craig said:

Acts 3:21 does not fit on Craig's comment. Acts 3:21 talks about God will change heavens and earth into all new things that will be occur at the end of the age.

Also, there is no hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us that a lazy servant once cast into the outer darkness(hell/lake of fire) will have ANOTHER chnace of salvation after this the judgment.

Please look to Hebrews 9:27 says, "And as it is APPOINTED unto men ONCE to die, but AFTER this the judgement." Clear, this verse does not prove there will be another chance for a person to be saved once after a person died. Once for a person, then it is too late and already appointed for a person to face the judgement what a person already accounted for faith, and work, what person has done in the lifetime.

I better stop it. This is already too long post. I will continue discuss in the next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

To be continued...

Craig said:

I notice Craig quoted verses, by saying, 'eternal life' & 'everlasting life'. All of verses as Craig quoted, do not mentioned about Messianic Kingdom, or 'a thousand years'. All of these are speak of the promises to us, that we shall have eternal life - immortality, to be with the Lord ever.

Craig said:

John 3:16 say nothing about Millennial Kingdom, neither its saying, 'a thousand years'. John 3:16 promises us, if anyone believing on Jesus Christ, shall never perish, but have everlasting life. That mean, if a person continue believing on Christ shall never be punish go to everlasting fire, but have everlasting life to be with the Lord ever.

Craig said:

Craig saying of these verses are speaking of temporary. Craig considered King James Version have errors about 'eternal', he said, these should be correct saying, 'age-lasting'.

Let you know, I have been researching on the history of manuscript and Authorized Version. King James I ordered 60 translators, and divided them into three groups go to Westminister University, Oxford University, and Cambridge University for doing work on translating God's Word from Greek & Hebrews into English Bible. I learned that all of them were Anglicans. Few years ago, my old friend told me, he went to Ireland for missionary field trip with his group. He visited Catholic church, met priest. He showed KJV Bible to a priest. Priest told him, KJV is Catholic Bible. He shocked. I told him, that the priest was right. During that time, there was conflict between Catholics and Protestants in England during King James I. Anglican was not yet existed till several years later after Queen Elizabeth decided to unity both Catholic and Protestant to become into 'Church of England'. Anglican is part of Roman Catholic. Anglican is not Protestant. All of 60 translators were Anglicans.

Also, I learned that during King James I's reign, he send his army persecute against Protestants, Pilgrims, Calvinists in England. Understand, King James I was control under Pope's power or authority. King James I commanded army to invaded many Protestant churches, colleges, and destroyed them. Also, Catholic sent Jesuits into Protestant colleges, that why many Protestant colleges was influenced by Catholic by use Jesuits as professors to teaching in Protestant colleges.

I am no doubt that all of 60 translators during Council of Trent in year between 1604 to 1611, all of them were Jesuits.

I think, Craig saying, 'eternal' should be translate into 'age-lasting' correctly, to support premill as called it, "temporary". Actual, I have no problem with all verses as Craig quoted them.

Understand, all 60 translators were amill, not premill. Because they were Anglicans. Anglicans were never been premill, because Anglican is part of Catholic. Of course, all Catholics are amill, we know that.

Later this week, I will make a long post on many verses of 'thousand', tell which one is literal or figurative.

Craig said:

His interpreting of John 4:13-14 does not make a sense to me. Craig saying of King James Version is not correct of John 4:13-14 of 'everalsting life', he said, it should be correct saying, 'age-lasting life'. In his intepreting of 'age-lasting life' speak of temporary time. Christ does not saying that the well of water springing up into a temporary time. If Craig saying it, then that would make Christ limited, huh?

John 4:14 is also refer find in Rev. 22:17 says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of LIFE freely." Clearly, it speaks of drinking the water of life is during on new earth in the eternality age.

Craig quoted John 8:51 of page 58, he said:

Notice, Craig added unto God's Word of John 8:51 in the last part of verse 51, he said, "...for, or in, the age(to come)." But, it is not in King James Version. KJV of John 8:51 says, "Verily,verily, I say unto you, if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." Christ does not saying, "or in, the age(to come)." Craig added it unto God's Word, that is against in Rev. 22:18.

Craig says, death cannot mean physical death. He says it means, those who really hear and keep the commandment of Christ in their hearts will be in real in the state of life and to fellowship with God in glorified bodies during the Millennial period. In other word, Craig says, death cannot mean everlasting death, but in his own interpreting it, means, being banned or excluded from millennial kingdom by send into the hell for a temporary.

I disagree with him. I have no problem with John 8:51. Christ tells us, IF any person keep the commandment, will never see death. Death is speak of the second death of Rev. 20:14 is everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Craig said"

(emphasis mine)

Craig's intepreting of 2 Thess. 1:10 sounds like as partial rapturism to me.

I have been researching Joey Faust's book, and Gary T. Whipple, I found out, that Faust's teaching sound like partial rapturism. Because Faust quoted from Watchman Nee lot in his book. Nee taught partial rapturism doctrine. Also, I noticed Faust quoted many authors as "ancient" authors, but all of these were born during 19th Cenbtury, none of the author were born during prior 19th Century. Except, Dr. J. Macknight (1721 -1800)- (I read of his comment, his comment sound to me, he sounds to me that he was not pretrib), and Isaac Taylor Jr. (1787-1865). Actually, I believe during in early of Taylor's young adult during that period, pretribulationism was not yet existed. Same with George Muller. Obivously, partial rapturism was developed during 19th century thanked to teenager girl named Maraget MacDonald's vision of rapture. That how Darby developed of rapture.

Many pretribbers saying, they do not believe in partial rapturism. But, they do not realized that pretribulational is part of partial rapturism, because of divided the Body of Christ into groups.

Craig said:

.

Matt. 10:37-39 and John 8:51 say nothing about being suffering of a temporary time. 'lose it' of Matt. 10:39 is speak of lost God's heritance and blessing - eternal life, shall go into everlasting punishment. John 8:51 speaks of 'death' is the second death of Rev. 20:14 send into everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Craig said:

Partially of this, I agree with him. These as 'Christians' any baptists or religions who walk after flesh will have condemnation(punishment or judged). Craig speaks this of Romans 8:1. But I do not agree with Craig speaks of Gal. 5:19-21 in his own intepreting of "shall not the kingdom of God" is speak of not enter the Messianic Kingdom or Millennial Kingdom as temporary time. Gal. 5:19-21 tell us very clear, if any person who do wicked things, cannot have eternal life, will suffer in the everlasting fire -lake of fire. Very simple and plain.

I better stop now. This post is very long. I will continue more discuss in the next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

________________ does not say anything about "millenial kingdom" or "messianic kingdom"

This is not a valid argument DPT. I could go through sll your posts and change the phrase to "eternity".

________________ does not say anything about "absolute eternity".

We must divide. We must use context.

Lacy

 

Lacy Evans,

No excuse, you should already aware that S.S. Craig said of 'eternal life' means Messianic Kingdom or Millennial Kingdom so many times in his book.

Also, 'eternal life' or 'everlasting fire', or 'age to come', all of them are synonmous with eternity.

I am still working on another post to continue discuss on Craig's comment in his book.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I disagree with him. What about Pharisees? There are many records in the four gospels that, Pharisees came to Jesus, and ask questions. Are Pharisees saved? Same with a young rich man came to Christ, that does not prove that himself was true saved. During Christ's ministry, a person came to Christ by asking questions, that do not mean that a person is already saved or not.

Craig said:

I am no doubt that a young rich man was been honest and truthful by asked question to Christ. But, this passage does not prove us that a young rich man is saved.

Many religions include baptists are doing serve and good works for the Lord today, but that do not mean they are saved just like as a young rich man. Many religions are eager to serve the Lord by obeying the Lord, and keeping the commandments, just like as a young rich man kept the commandments. Many religions do keeping the commandments, but that do not mean that they are saved.

In Matt. 7:21-22 telling us, many religions do their works by obey the commandments, and they actually serve the Lord, same as baptists do. But, Lord shall saying to them, He never know them, depart them from him, cast them into everlasting fire. Why? Because Christ said, "depart from me, ye that work - INIQUITY." - Matt. 7:23. Word, 'iniquity' means wicked or sinful. Many religions include baptists doing serve the Lord by obeying the commandments, but they do not repent of their sins, or remain in wicked ways of their life. That why Christ will send them to everlasting life because of without repentance.

A young rich man asked Christ, what things he can do to have eternal life.

Eternal life never so called, 'Messianic Kingdom' or 'Millennial Kingdom'. Because during Christ's ministry on earth, a young rich man never hear of premillennial doctrine, that doctrine was not yet existed till during Reformation Period(year around 1500's A,D.). Also, a young rich man never hear of 'a thousand years of kingdom', because none of this teaching find anywhere in the Old testament books (New Testament books were not yet canon together till about 300 years later after Christ's ministry). A young man never think of 'a thousand years' while he asked Christ. A young rich man desired want to know how can have eternal life, obivously, he was asking Christ about after his death for eternal life. I am sure that a young rich man must have believed in resurrection. Scribes or Sadducees, (I am not sure which one of them) do not believe in resurrection.

Christ told man, if he desires to have eternal life, then he have to obey the commandements, just like as Christ commanded us to obey his commandments - John 14:15.

Then, a young rich man asked Christ, what thing, he miss to do thing to have eternal life. Then, Christ told him, he have to give up everything what he have, and to sell things to poor people, come and follow Christ.

A young man bittered, and walked away from Christ. Was a rich man saved? NO! S.S. Criag believed a rich young man is saved.

John 10:27-29 teaching us very clear, Christ promises us, if any person hear his voice(commandment & gospel) and FOLLOW, no one include Satan can take person away from Christ's hand, Christ have his power to hold person of salvation long as person still follow Christ. OR.... if a person stopped follow Christ, Christ could loose person out of his hand.

That mean, a person was once follow Christ, then turn away, a person become lost (Luke 15:32), is on the way to everlasting fire.

Criag said:

Salvation is not yet offically or being guaranteed by believing. Believing means to continue believe. Or, if a person stopped believing, then shall be cut off - John 15:6 & Romans 11:20.
</font>[/QUOTE]DPT, you contend that we can know that the rich young ruler is not saved, because Christ told him to sell what he had, and give to the poor, and follow him. If the RYR is on his way to the lake of fire because he did not do this, what hope do you or I have?

Luk 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Luk 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

You and I have been given the same commandment, have we not? If this is a requirement for the rich young ruler to be raised up on the last day, then it is a requirement for us as well. If you disagree, why?

 

To be continued...

Craig quoted of John chapter 6. He said:

Craig speaks of John 6:50. That 'death' is not speak of everlasting punishment as physical, but spiritual. I think, because of John 6:59 gives us the lesson og Israel in the wildrness, that they ate manna and dead. Seems to me, that Craig telling us, 'death' is not speak of physical, but spiritual. But, John 6:49 clear telling us, that they did eat manna, but they died. That means, it speak of both physical and spiritual well. They already died in the wilderness - physical. Christ's point of them, they were not spiritual death or physical either. Christ's point of manna as bread, that they were earthly food. Manna cannot saved their life, and they cannot stay alive up to 200 years or forever. Manna is an earthly food. That why Christ said, "I AM that bread of life." - John 6:48. Christ was speak of not physical, but spiritually. That means if we being be without have Christ in us, we are spiritual death and lost. So, that mean we are in Christ, we are spiritual life.

Craig continued of John 6:50-51, he said:

I have no problem with John 6:47, 54, & 58 speak of 'everlasting life', 'eternal life', and 'live for ever'. All of these are clearly speak of eternality as immortality.

By the way, the first part of John 6:58 speak of Israel in the wilderness did eat bread, all of them were dead. Understand, manna are earthly, and they cannot make them still alive forever. Yes, God did sent manna from the heaven by raining them down to the ground, and they ate them during wildrness. That was miracle. But, afterward, they died- physical, because manna are earthly food.

But, in the last part of John 6:58 tells us, he that eateth of THIS BREAD shall live for ever, it speaks of spiritually life, also, Christ IS the bread, and Christ is eternality.

Craig discussed on Genesis 13:15, he said that, 'for ever' is not eternity or everlasting, it is temporary as age-lasting.

I have no problem with Gen. 13:15, God promised to Abraham that his seed is an everlasting. What 'seed' speak of? Jesus Christ!!!

Satan tried to destroy the seed of Christ many times in the past, ever today. But, he failed many times. Because God's promise never fail us, that the seed are belong to Christ's forever according to Galatians 3:14, 16,22, 26, 28-29.

Seed is an eternality just same with Daniel 7:14, 18, and 27 speak of the kingdom is an eternality.

Also, seed is not just speak of physical descents, but speak of God's family - spiritually. Also, Seed is Heavenly family as Mt. Zion - God's family, it is obivously eternality.

Craig said:

Absolutely! Yes, covenant is an everlasting. It find in Psalm 105:8,10 - "He hath remembered his coveant FOR EVER, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law; and and to Israel for AN EVERLASTING covenant."

Covenant is not a temporary, but everlasting.

God never fail them. But people of Israel did break the covenant with God by disobey and sinned against God during Old Testament period. SO, Christ made another new better covenant with many by Calvary. Even, NOW we have an everlasting covenant with Christ because of Calvary!

Craig said of a rich man in hell of Luke 16:19-31 is not lost. I disagree.

Craig said of Daniel 12:2, that he says, Dan. 12:2 have nothing to do with Rev. 20:11-15. Oh come on! Please read above Daniel 12:1 in the last part of the verse says, "at time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. Clearly, Daniel 1:1 is speak of the book of life in Rev. 20:15 -"And whosever was not found witten in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Abosuletly, yes Daniel 12:1-2 is very clear refer with Rev. 20:11-15.

Also, Daniel 12:2 is find a refer verse in John 5:29 "And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Daniel 12:2 is very, very clear speak of the general judgement day, the only ONE judgement day at Christ's coming at the end of the age. Not two or three different judgement days according premill doctrine.

Craig explains of Luke 16:19-31 very strange, he said that, the gulf is already 'fixed', shall be bridge together, that means, his teaching seem saying that 'hell' will be unity with Abraham's bosom as heaven. That is heretic teaching.

Craig explained of the failure of Isreal & the failure of the Christian, that he saying, the failure of Israel to enter the Promised Land as Paul used it as 'type' of the failure of the Christians of this present age, to enter the Messianic Kingdom in the page 106.

Bible never teaching us that kind of type on the teaching of Israel's failed to enter Canaan comparing to the failure of Christians to enter Millennial Kingdom. Because none of these passages mentioned 'a thousand years'.

Craig discussed of Romans 11:13-24, Jews were cut off, just same as Christrians are cut off because of disbelief, but, Craig said, "But it is not a final excision" - pp. 106. Craig inteprets "graft them in again" of Romans 11:23, that Christians include the rich man shall be graft in again will be after the millennial kingdom.

No! No!

Romans 11:23 deals with our present living, not beyond after our death(physical). Romans 11:23 tells us, that any one who shall repent of sins, then God shall add person unto the branches again. It according to Luke 15:32- "alive again". It is not too late for anyone who is now backslidding, still have a chance for repentance while still alive. BUT, if a person remains sinning till by the time a person died, then there is no chance for a person to be 'graft in again' of Romans 11:23.

Craig said:

Probably Craig was right about rich man. But, how can Craig prove that a rich man is saved or lost? Craig speaks of a rich man of Luke 16:19-31, he believed that a rich man is saved. No way that he can proved that a rich man is saved. Because Christ tells us, a rich man is ALREADY in hell and struck stay there suffering in a great tornment in the fire for 2,000 years and continuing today. Obivously, he is forver lost.

I can't believe what Craig said of hell he said:

(emphasis mine)

He argued of 'great gulf' shall be bridged, he says:

No way, Craig can prove 'great gulf' shall be bridged. There is no hint of averse find anywhere in the Bible saying that 'great gulf' of Luke 16:26, shall be bridged (both hell and Abraham's bosom shall be unity together. In other word, Heaven and hell never, never, never unity together! Heaven is separated away from hell zillions of miles away both are already separated forever!

Luke 9:38-50 does not relate with Luke 16:19-31. Luke 9:38-50 talk about Christ showed a child to the disciples, that a little child is an example that we must be born again like as child to enter the kingdom of God.

I better stop now. This post is already long. I will continue discuss more in the next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

James,

You mentioned of Luke 12:33, "Sell that ye have, and and give alms provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupeth." That you think this verse is not apply to us. It applied to the Jews or disciples. Well, you are wrong. Christ commanded us to helping poor people as part of Christ's commandment. Same with Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us, that we should be hospitlaized or helping one other.

Two months ago, I was in Nashville, visited my old friend. We went to downtown for tour. We met a young deaf is a homeless, and runway from his parents. He haven't seen his parents for 2 years. He asked us, need a ride home to Indianapolis. He stealed our time of our pleasure on the tour. But, we have surrender our time, and willing helping him. Before we helping him. I felt guilt form God, while walked into the restaruant, I told my old friend, I felt guilt that we did not helping deaf man according Matt. 25:31-46. So, immediately, we invited him came into the restaruant, and my friend paid young deaf man for a nice dinner. Also, we paid him for bus ride home to Indianapolis. Even we told him about Jesus Christ. He was so happy, and said to us, "John, and you both are my brothers." After we dropped him off at the bus station, and then we went to rent movie and get pizza. We got home and watch national championship college football game, we missed the first quarter of the game, because we gave up our time, and to take care of a younf deaf man first, to make sure that he is goingt o home to see his family safety. Also, I gave enough money to him, that he needs money for food and ride taxi home to find his parents. I told him, he don't have to owe me money.

Oh what blessing to us.

I believe Matt. 25:31-46 is apply to every Christians throughout all ages, from Calvary to second coming, not just apply to a limited group - "great tribulation saints" of seven year tribulation period only.

Yes, Christ commands us, that we ought to helping poor people, not only helping poor people, also witness gospel to poor people about Jesus Christ. If we do not obey Christ, we shall go to everlasting fire according to 2 Thess. 1:8-9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

James,

Yes, a rich man shall be raised on the last day according John 5:27-29. Every person all shall be raise from the graves, some shall enter everlasting life, some shall enter everlasting punishment smae with Dan. 12:2; and Matt. 25:46

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

That is because many times 'eternal life' does mean the Kingdom. Craig offers many Biblical proofs. His is not an unproven premise.

That sounds like the topic for a new thread. I completely disagree. There is no way to prove that statement Biblically or, for that matter, using common English. I suppose next week, after the conference, we can debate whether "Age to come" means eternity, whether "eternal fire" means that the person will be in the fire for eternity, and whether the words 'eternal', 'everlasting', and 'forever' must always be taken in their most absolute sense (in spite of context clues to the contrary).


Lacy

PS. You completed the book really fast! It took me an eternity!

 

Lacy Evans,

Sure, I am glad that you want to discuss with me about 'age to come' next week after the conference.

This week, I will discuss on 'age' with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Incredible.Baptists attempting to defend a doctrine of purgatory. C4K You've got it right.

 

POB,

Show proof that anyone has "defended the doctrine of Purgatory" or kindly be quiet.

Lacy

Ro 13:9 -
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

That is very nice of you to help people, and we are certainly commanded to do such acts. But why do you say that I am saying Luke 12:33 only applies to Jews and disciples? We are called to be disciples, and that verse applies to anyone who will hear His voice and follow Him. It doesn't say to help poor people, it says sell that ye have. Ye is you, sell means to get rid of it. You cannot hold the rich young ruler to this standard, then water it down for yourself and say 'Jesus just wants me to give people money when they need it'. You must assume that the rich young ruler never gave alms?? How then could he truthfully say that he kept the commandments?
Matthew 19
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus did not say that the rich ruler was guilty of not loving his neighbor. Jesus said if he would be perfect, to sell all that he has, give to the poor, and follow him. We can assume that if the rich ruler was to meet a man who needed money, he would give it to him. Where do we get such a double standard? If the ruler had to sell all that he has to be saved, so do you.

 

Lacy Evans,

Bill might be correct according what C4K saying.

Of course, I know you and many others such as Newman, Faust, etc. don't claim, that they believe in "purgatory".

Yet, easy for Bill, C4K, many baptists include me can reading Faust's book teaching sounds like as purgatory because of excluded from millennium by send Christians in the hell, but for a "Temporary".

This teaching comparing ALMOST like as what Roman Catholic.

Catholics teach that a person who is now in hell or another place such as 'purgatory', we are responsible to pay the bills, taxes, or tithe, etc. till person's debt(sins) all pay off, then a person shall be released out of the purgatory. Catholic's teaching is false and heretic.

Ironic, Faust quoted of Matthew 18:23-35 that a person being cast into the hell, till get forgived or pay as use verse 34 is sounds almost same as what Catholics teaching that a person is in purgatory, till we pay the debts first then, pay off person's debt(sins), a person shall be released out the purgatory.

Matt. 18:34 does not prove of millennial exclusion, because it does not saying 'a thousand years'. Verse 34 is speaking of figurative as illustration or a parable, that we ought to forgive one other, or in other word, if we do not forgive one other, then God would not forgive our sins till we forgive one other include ask God to forgive our sins.

Bill or C4K does not carry false witness (false teaching). I agree with C4K, millennial exclusion is unbiblical. But, I know C4k is pretrib, premill, and believe in security salvation.

The fact is most baptists understands of Matt. 25:30 is speak of toward unsaved person shall be cast into 'outer darkness' is speak of everlasting punishment means hell, there is no promise for a lazy servant shall be finally release out of it after once for a lazy servant cast into it.

No way you can prove find in the Bible that, a lazy servant shall be finally being released or free out of the outer darkness beyond after the judgement day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

James,

Right, I know that. Jesus does not saying. Understand, Christ never meet a young rich man BEFORE a young rich man came to meet Christ. Christ already know what in rich's heart BEFORE he came to ask Christ a question. Because Christ is an omniscience. Means Christ knows everything from A to Z. Christ already know that a rich man's heart shows that he was selfish, and will refuse to be willing to follow Christ BEFORE he asked Christ. Christ just tested on rich's man's attitude and faith. Christ already know that rich man have no faith and not willing to follow Christ. But, Christ asked him anyway. Because a rich man came and ask Christ in the first place before Christ telling to him by test.

Maybe you right about rich man. But, no way that you can prove that a rich man was probably ask Christ for need money. The records in the Bible telling us, a rich man came to Christ, ask what he can do to have eternal life, he does not ask Christ about money.

No doubt, rich man was not saved, because of that man refused willing to follow Christ, he turned away fro Christ, now he is the hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Mt 18:34
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Matt. 18:34 does not prove loss of salvation, because it does not say 'all eternity'.

No way you can prove find in the Bible that, a lazy servant shall be lost for all eternity, and that his chastisement is absolutely eternal.

The Lord's Table (Communion) is ALMOST like the Catholic Mass. A Pastor is ALMOST like a priest. It is an absolutely unfair and totally subjective comparison.

Ironic? How about the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation/security compared to DPT's?

Lacy