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Baptist Purgatory
- Thread starter Bartimaeus
- Start date
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Matt. 18:34 does not take into literally. Verse 34 is speak of the parable as Christ uses this of an illustration, verse 34 is context start with verse 23 thru 35, talk about the servant who having heavy debt, being bring to face before the lord, the servant fell down before the lord, begging give more time of patience and he will owe debt to the lord. Then, lord have compassion, then decided to freed servant out and no debt, as lord forgives servant. But, when lord hears news that the same servant doing revenage servant's neighbor that he owes 100 pence to the servant. Person begs to the servant, for patience, promise will owe debt to him. The servant don't accept person asks for plea. Servant sends a person into the jail. Then the lord angry at the same servant, which he allows servant go freed. Then, lord called servant come to before the lord. He said to him, "O thou wicked servant", lord already forgive servant all of the debt. Lord rebukes servant, why not servant should the same thing as have compassion upon his neighbor like as what lord did to servant. So, the lord angr with the servant, and send servant to jail, till servant have to pay all that debt first.
So, verse 35 says, "So LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father Do also unto you, IF ye from your hearts FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses."
Christ's point of verse 35 telling us, that parable of verse 23-34 is same idea that God will do something with us, IF we do not forgive one another of their sins.
Verse 34 does not prove purgatory or temporary, or do nothing with 'proof' of millennial exclusion. Verse 34 does not take literally, it is only parable of illustration as story. But, Verse 35 is not an illustration, it is literally, that God would do something with us, IF we do not forgive one another, God would NOT forgive us, if we do not forgiver person's sins who sin against us. Veree 35 is speakmof clear warning with condition to us, God might send us into everlasting fire, IF we do not forgive one another. In other word, IF we do not confess our sins to Christ, then Christ cannot forgive our present & future sins unless till we first confess our sins to Christ. If we confess our sins to Christ, for sure Christ would immediately forgive our sins and forget sins past away. BUT, if we do not confess our sins to Christ for a long time, then Christ cannot forgive our sins in the rest of our life since present and future when after our last time make confession our sins to Christ afterward.
Baptists believed our sins already forgive all of our past, PRESENET, and FUTURE all together at once through Christ's blood is already automatically or being guaranteed already saved at once.
Heb. 10:26-27 warn, "For IF we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of JUDGMENT and FEIRY INDIGNATION, which shall devour the adversaries."
Wow! What a serious warning. This passage telling if we sinning aferward and continue AFTER we received the knowledge of the truth(gospel), then there is no forgiven within us afterward(future), and shall face judgement of punishment - everlasting fire. Heb. 10:26-27 is refer same with Heb. 6:4-6, 8.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
So, verse 35 says, "So LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father Do also unto you, IF ye from your hearts FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses."
Christ's point of verse 35 telling us, that parable of verse 23-34 is same idea that God will do something with us, IF we do not forgive one another of their sins.
Verse 34 does not prove purgatory or temporary, or do nothing with 'proof' of millennial exclusion. Verse 34 does not take literally, it is only parable of illustration as story. But, Verse 35 is not an illustration, it is literally, that God would do something with us, IF we do not forgive one another, God would NOT forgive us, if we do not forgiver person's sins who sin against us. Veree 35 is speakmof clear warning with condition to us, God might send us into everlasting fire, IF we do not forgive one another. In other word, IF we do not confess our sins to Christ, then Christ cannot forgive our present & future sins unless till we first confess our sins to Christ. If we confess our sins to Christ, for sure Christ would immediately forgive our sins and forget sins past away. BUT, if we do not confess our sins to Christ for a long time, then Christ cannot forgive our sins in the rest of our life since present and future when after our last time make confession our sins to Christ afterward.
Baptists believed our sins already forgive all of our past, PRESENET, and FUTURE all together at once through Christ's blood is already automatically or being guaranteed already saved at once.
Heb. 10:26-27 warn, "For IF we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of JUDGMENT and FEIRY INDIGNATION, which shall devour the adversaries."
Wow! What a serious warning. This passage telling if we sinning aferward and continue AFTER we received the knowledge of the truth(gospel), then there is no forgiven within us afterward(future), and shall face judgement of punishment - everlasting fire. Heb. 10:26-27 is refer same with Heb. 6:4-6, 8.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Lacy Evans
New Member
Verse 34 does not prove eternal loss of salvation, or do nothing with 'proof' of loss of salvation.
On what authority do you base this claim? One verse figurative, next verse figurative? Even if it is true how does it prove eternal loss of salvation?
OK?
Till he should pay all!!
Likewise means likewise!
So we are saved by continual confessing of our sins. Sounds like Catholicism to me.
Lacy
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Lacy,
Can a dead person pays the debt while in the grave or in the hell same time???
Christ tells us of verse 35 shows us the illustration of lord & servant, what God would do with us, IF we do not forgive one another, Then God would NOT forgive us. Till we have to forgive them first.
In other word, if we refuse to forgive one other, while bitter or obesses against one other for a long time till death without forgive that person, then God still not forgive us, will remain in hell without forgiven of sins. Being bitter or obession against person who sin against us, is consider as we are "murder" in 1 John 1:11 "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." and 1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know that NO murderer HATH ETERNAL LIFE abiding in him."
That mean, suppose any person who wrong doing or sin against you, and you refuse forgive that person, as you grows into bitter or obsess against that person who sinned against you. Long as you keep refuse forgive person who sin against you, is consider as "murderer" sorry to saying according 1 John 3:15, if you keep on refuse to forgive person who sin against you till you died, then you will not abide in Jesus Christ. - John 15:6.
I already seen so many baptists are rumour, criticizing against their brothers each other, even, many baptists are bitter, obsess against others. No question, so many baptists are murderers out there in America today.
Also, in 1 John 3:6 tells us very clear, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth NOT: whosoever SINNETH hath not seen him, neither know him." It tells us, anyone who is enduring in Christ, do not sinning, or, any person who continue sinning do not abdiding in Christ, means person is not in Christ, person is spiritually death - lost.
Also, 1 John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God."
This verse does not saying that we are sinless life. we cannot be expect there is a perfect person with have sin on earth. Of course, we all commit sinning daily throughout our life. This verse telling us, when a person is born again, therefore, person should NOT commit sin. Because God is holy, in 1 Peter 1:15-16. God commands us all that we ought be holy to be Christ-like daily as we maturing or being sanctifying from the world daily to get closer to Christ daily.
We notice several passages in the four gospels of Christ's ministry. When after Christ healed people. Christ told them, "Sin NO MORE.". That is Christ's command unto people which were healed by Christ, not just for healed people by Christ only, also, Christ commanded us that we sin NOT throughout our lifetime till death. Impossible for us being be sinless life. We all easily commit sinning daily, that why we ought to confess our sins to Christ faithfully according 1 John 1:9. Christ knows that we are all weakness, but Christ expecting us to confess our sins to Christ more often as He continues forgive us faithfully. Or, if we continue sinning all the way without make any confess sin to Christ till our death, then Christ would NOT forgive our sins of future commit sins.
Being to be endure to the end of Matt. 10:22; and 24:13. That means, 'endure' always include walk godly daily, confess our sins faithfully. Paul urges us to be blameless life by Christ's coming, so, we shall not be ashamed at Christ's coming.
[sounds like Catholicism to me[/Quote]
You know that I am not catholic, I am a truly baptist, I am a truly Bible believer.I nevr agree with Catholic's teachings. I strong disagree with Catholic on Mass. It is part of good works.
Catholic have errors of teaching salvation by base upon follow all 7 sacraments, attend mass service, get IN Roman Catholic Church - "Saved". Notice, many Catholics who love the Lord, but they are going good works in their OWN SELF-Righteousness, not toward Christ. Many Catholics must demand to meet all sacraments in the order to get into heaven is wrongly idea of salvation.
This weekend, I will discuss on 'faith' and 'work' much deeper with verses what verses saying about them.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
p.s. I not yet make long post to continue discuss on Craig's book. Because I need go to sleep for get ready go to work - 3rd shift job tonight. I will continue discuss more on Craig's book tomorrow or during this week.
Use our common sense by reading Matt 18:23-34 speask of the illustration, as Christ said "LIKENED" of verse 23, Christ used illustration of lord and servant by apply to our life what we ought to practically correct with spiritually relationship with people and God in our right attitude and to forgive one another.
Verse 34 does not take into literally, this apply to our practically life, that when a person thrown in the jail till pay the debt first.
Can a dead person pays the debt while in the grave or in the hell same time???
Christ tells us of verse 35 shows us the illustration of lord & servant, what God would do with us, IF we do not forgive one another, Then God would NOT forgive us. Till we have to forgive them first.
In other word, if we refuse to forgive one other, while bitter or obesses against one other for a long time till death without forgive that person, then God still not forgive us, will remain in hell without forgiven of sins. Being bitter or obession against person who sin against us, is consider as we are "murder" in 1 John 1:11 "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." and 1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know that NO murderer HATH ETERNAL LIFE abiding in him."
That mean, suppose any person who wrong doing or sin against you, and you refuse forgive that person, as you grows into bitter or obsess against that person who sinned against you. Long as you keep refuse forgive person who sin against you, is consider as "murderer" sorry to saying according 1 John 3:15, if you keep on refuse to forgive person who sin against you till you died, then you will not abide in Jesus Christ. - John 15:6.
I already seen so many baptists are rumour, criticizing against their brothers each other, even, many baptists are bitter, obsess against others. No question, so many baptists are murderers out there in America today.
Correct according Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; Hebrews 3:6, 14.
Also, in 1 John 3:6 tells us very clear, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth NOT: whosoever SINNETH hath not seen him, neither know him." It tells us, anyone who is enduring in Christ, do not sinning, or, any person who continue sinning do not abdiding in Christ, means person is not in Christ, person is spiritually death - lost.
Also, 1 John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God."
This verse does not saying that we are sinless life. we cannot be expect there is a perfect person with have sin on earth. Of course, we all commit sinning daily throughout our life. This verse telling us, when a person is born again, therefore, person should NOT commit sin. Because God is holy, in 1 Peter 1:15-16. God commands us all that we ought be holy to be Christ-like daily as we maturing or being sanctifying from the world daily to get closer to Christ daily.
We notice several passages in the four gospels of Christ's ministry. When after Christ healed people. Christ told them, "Sin NO MORE.". That is Christ's command unto people which were healed by Christ, not just for healed people by Christ only, also, Christ commanded us that we sin NOT throughout our lifetime till death. Impossible for us being be sinless life. We all easily commit sinning daily, that why we ought to confess our sins to Christ faithfully according 1 John 1:9. Christ knows that we are all weakness, but Christ expecting us to confess our sins to Christ more often as He continues forgive us faithfully. Or, if we continue sinning all the way without make any confess sin to Christ till our death, then Christ would NOT forgive our sins of future commit sins.
Being to be endure to the end of Matt. 10:22; and 24:13. That means, 'endure' always include walk godly daily, confess our sins faithfully. Paul urges us to be blameless life by Christ's coming, so, we shall not be ashamed at Christ's coming.
[sounds like Catholicism to me[/Quote]
You know that I am not catholic, I am a truly baptist, I am a truly Bible believer.I nevr agree with Catholic's teachings. I strong disagree with Catholic on Mass. It is part of good works.
Catholic have errors of teaching salvation by base upon follow all 7 sacraments, attend mass service, get IN Roman Catholic Church - "Saved". Notice, many Catholics who love the Lord, but they are going good works in their OWN SELF-Righteousness, not toward Christ. Many Catholics must demand to meet all sacraments in the order to get into heaven is wrongly idea of salvation.
This weekend, I will discuss on 'faith' and 'work' much deeper with verses what verses saying about them.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
p.s. I not yet make long post to continue discuss on Craig's book. Because I need go to sleep for get ready go to work - 3rd shift job tonight. I will continue discuss more on Craig's book tomorrow or during this week.
Lacy Evans
New Member
See ya'll after the conference. (And some of you at the conference.)
lacy
lacy
James_Newman
New Member
when are you coming in?
James_Newman
New Member
Well, I hope he is already here!
James_Newman
New Member
Correct according Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; Hebrews 3:6, 14.
Also, in 1 John 3:6 tells us very clear, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth NOT: whosoever SINNETH hath not seen him, neither know him." It tells us, anyone who is enduring in Christ, do not sinning, or, any person who continue sinning do not abdiding in Christ, means person is not in Christ, person is spiritually death - lost.
Also, 1 John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God."
This verse does not saying that we are sinless life. we cannot be expect there is a perfect person with have sin on earth. Of course, we all commit sinning daily throughout our life. This verse telling us, when a person is born again, therefore, person should NOT commit sin. Because God is holy, in 1 Peter 1:15-16. God commands us all that we ought be holy to be Christ-like daily as we maturing or being sanctifying from the world daily to get closer to Christ daily.
We notice several passages in the four gospels of Christ's ministry. When after Christ healed people. Christ told them, "Sin NO MORE.". That is Christ's command unto people which were healed by Christ, not just for healed people by Christ only, also, Christ commanded us that we sin NOT throughout our lifetime till death. Impossible for us being be sinless life. We all easily commit sinning daily, that why we ought to confess our sins to Christ faithfully according 1 John 1:9. Christ knows that we are all weakness, but Christ expecting us to confess our sins to Christ more often as He continues forgive us faithfully. Or, if we continue sinning all the way without make any confess sin to Christ till our death, then Christ would NOT forgive our sins of future commit sins.
</font>[/QUOTE]Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Was this man saved? If so, what was he saved from? What type of gift is a salvation that doesn't last? Could we not achieve the same effect from the sacrifices in the temple?
Heb 10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Grace is grace and works is works. You cannot mix them together to try to reconcile different passages, Paul made that clear in Romans:
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Grace is not works, and works is not grace. Both of them have their purpose, but they are distinct from one another. The millennial exclusion doctrine is the only way I know to reconcile these issues without making a mystical fusion of grace and works that is absurd when taken to its logical conclusion and ultimately leads to us looking to our works for assurance of salvation rather than looking to the finished work of the cross.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
True, we are saved by the faith only, not of good works according Eph. 2:8-9.
A blind man heard people shouted that Jesus was around there, he heard the messages from people that Messiah is coming to saved people according the Old Testmane prophecy. When Jesus came nearby blind man's place. When a blind man heard noisy from the multitude, he asked someone, what's going on? A person told him, 'that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.' Then, he shouted, said, "Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me." People heard blind man shouting, they rebuked him for shouting, keep quiet down. But, he continued shouted. Said the same thing. Jesus heard him, and commanded them to bring him to Christ. Christ asked him, what he would do to him? Blind man asked Christ, 'Lord, I may receive my sight.' Then, Lord told him, "Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." Look next verse- "And immediately he received his sight, and FOLLOW him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God." - verse 43.
Christ doesn't saying anything to a blind man, thta he would do something to enter the kingdom of God, he only told him, his faith saved him. Christ is an omniscience, means He knows everything what will be happen in the future. I am sure, that Christ already know that a blind man who was healed, will always remaineth follow him all the way to death. There is no record in the Bible saying what happen to a blind man's life after he was healed. I am sure that he was remain followed Christ all the way till his(man) death, and he remained always saved by time of his death - Matt. 24:13. \
James chapter 2 describes faith so deep, what itself means.
Verse 14- "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith saved him?"
hold for a moment. Martin Luther, ex-monk disliked book of James. He thinks James is much conflict with book of Romans, he think, the teaching of Paul and James both are different. He rathers book of James be removed from the Bible. Luther said, that we are saved by the faith only not of work. But Luther complained that the book of James mentioned faith include work both together for saved. He thinks book of James is conflict with Paul's teaching.
Many people saying 'I have faith in Christ', but they do nothing for the Lord, are they remain saved? Verse 17 says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." That means, a person have faith, but, not action with faith, is dead.
the context of verse 18 to 26 talk about faith and alone.
Verse 20 tells us, o vain man that faith without work is dead. It tells us, worthless for a person have faith, but do not doing to serve, is dead. It speaks of spiritually death.
Hold it for a moment.
I am sure that Luther and many others use Romans 4:3-5 to proved that Abraham was saved or justified by his faith only, not of his works. They might saying Romans 4:3-5 prove much same with Eph. 2:8-9, that we are saved by the faith only, not of works. They are correct. But many seem dislike what James chapter 2 talking about faith and work, they think that chapter shows mixed on salvation between faith and work.
I am going to discuss on faith more deeper soon.
James 2:21 - "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Is this verse conflicts with Eph. 2:8-9?
Bible oftens emphasis talking lot about faith throughout from Genesis to Revelation.
Hebrews chapter 11 telling us about the Hall of Faith, all of Old Testament saints were saved by their faith. How? By through their ACTION. You should read whole context Hebrews chapter 12 talk about Old Testament saints were saved by their faith through their actions.
James 2:22-23 - "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect> And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for 'righteousness': and he was called the Friend of God." Verse 23 is refer with Gen. 15:6; 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6. James who wrote that book, does not ignore refer veres from the Old Testament of Genesis 15:6. Notice, During James' time when he wrote that epistle, 27 books of the New Testament books were not yet being canonized together. Luther thinks the teaching of Paul and James are conflict. But, few hundred years later after Paul and James wrote them, all of 27 N.T. books were canonized together, Paul's writing of Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6 both recorded the same thing as what James said. So, there is no conflict teaching between Paul and James on Abraham.
Now back to James chapter 2. Verse 21 to 23 telling us, Abraham's faith was justified through his action being offered his son Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 says, "BY FAITH- Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son."
Throughout chapter 11 of Hebrews talking about Old Testament saints were saved by their faith through what? Through their actions.
What IF Abraham disobeys God for commanded to offer Isaac, what would be happened to Abraham's. Abraham would have been disowned by God, removed him from the promise by disobey. Obivously, this is conditional salvation.
Notice James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."
Too many people among baptists claim, I am already saved by our faith in Christ, nothing worry about our works, long as I am remain always saved till the end, that is called, 'onced saved always saved' - OSAS or, 'security salvation'. Once I believed in it. Now, no longer I believe in it. It is unbiblical.
James 2:25 - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messangers, and had sent them out another way?" Rahab was a Gentile harlot, but she have her faith by obey three spies, sent them escape away, and put red cloth over the window. Hebrews 11:31 -"BY FAITH the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she received the spies with peace." She was saved by her faith, that she sent three spies escape by sneak out of her place, and put red cloth ovee the window. It shows that she was saved by her faith through her ACTION. In other word, what IFRahab won't listen to spies, she could have called soldiers to arrest them, and Israel could not conquer Jecriho, because Joshua could have been waiting and waiting for three spies return back, what IF Rahab reported to soldiers to arrest three spies, Israel could never conquer Jecriho, IF three spies never return back to Joshua's camp. See? My point?
James 2:26 -"For as the body without the spirit is dead , SO faith WITHOUT works is DEAD ALSO." James' point is, our body without spirit is dead, remember, we all have soul and spirit within our body as 'trinity' all go together, once spirit/soul leaves our body, we died immediately. SAME with faith without work, faith is dead also! 'Dead' of James 2:26 is speak of spiritual dead.
So, Christ already know a blind man was saved by his faith - how? By FOLLOW - Luke 18;43. Or, what IF healed blind man stopped follow Christ, then his faith is dead.
Same with John 10:27-29 telling us, Christ have power to hold us, IF we continue follow Christ all the way to the end(Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13).
Christ was right, that He told to a blind man that his faith saved him. Does that mean his salvation was already automatically or being guaranteed at the first he believed in Christ after he was healed? No. He have to be remain to be saved while he continued faith plus follow Christ all the way to the end. So, therefore, Christ already know that man is saved, becauseof his faith and he continued follow Christ all the way to the end.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
A blind man heard people shouted that Jesus was around there, he heard the messages from people that Messiah is coming to saved people according the Old Testmane prophecy. When Jesus came nearby blind man's place. When a blind man heard noisy from the multitude, he asked someone, what's going on? A person told him, 'that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.' Then, he shouted, said, "Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me." People heard blind man shouting, they rebuked him for shouting, keep quiet down. But, he continued shouted. Said the same thing. Jesus heard him, and commanded them to bring him to Christ. Christ asked him, what he would do to him? Blind man asked Christ, 'Lord, I may receive my sight.' Then, Lord told him, "Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." Look next verse- "And immediately he received his sight, and FOLLOW him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God." - verse 43.
Christ doesn't saying anything to a blind man, thta he would do something to enter the kingdom of God, he only told him, his faith saved him. Christ is an omniscience, means He knows everything what will be happen in the future. I am sure, that Christ already know that a blind man who was healed, will always remaineth follow him all the way to death. There is no record in the Bible saying what happen to a blind man's life after he was healed. I am sure that he was remain followed Christ all the way till his(man) death, and he remained always saved by time of his death - Matt. 24:13. \
James chapter 2 describes faith so deep, what itself means.
Verse 14- "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith saved him?"
hold for a moment. Martin Luther, ex-monk disliked book of James. He thinks James is much conflict with book of Romans, he think, the teaching of Paul and James both are different. He rathers book of James be removed from the Bible. Luther said, that we are saved by the faith only not of work. But Luther complained that the book of James mentioned faith include work both together for saved. He thinks book of James is conflict with Paul's teaching.
Many people saying 'I have faith in Christ', but they do nothing for the Lord, are they remain saved? Verse 17 says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." That means, a person have faith, but, not action with faith, is dead.
the context of verse 18 to 26 talk about faith and alone.
Verse 20 tells us, o vain man that faith without work is dead. It tells us, worthless for a person have faith, but do not doing to serve, is dead. It speaks of spiritually death.
Hold it for a moment.
I am sure that Luther and many others use Romans 4:3-5 to proved that Abraham was saved or justified by his faith only, not of his works. They might saying Romans 4:3-5 prove much same with Eph. 2:8-9, that we are saved by the faith only, not of works. They are correct. But many seem dislike what James chapter 2 talking about faith and work, they think that chapter shows mixed on salvation between faith and work.
I am going to discuss on faith more deeper soon.
James 2:21 - "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Is this verse conflicts with Eph. 2:8-9?
Bible oftens emphasis talking lot about faith throughout from Genesis to Revelation.
Hebrews chapter 11 telling us about the Hall of Faith, all of Old Testament saints were saved by their faith. How? By through their ACTION. You should read whole context Hebrews chapter 12 talk about Old Testament saints were saved by their faith through their actions.
James 2:22-23 - "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect> And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for 'righteousness': and he was called the Friend of God." Verse 23 is refer with Gen. 15:6; 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6. James who wrote that book, does not ignore refer veres from the Old Testament of Genesis 15:6. Notice, During James' time when he wrote that epistle, 27 books of the New Testament books were not yet being canonized together. Luther thinks the teaching of Paul and James are conflict. But, few hundred years later after Paul and James wrote them, all of 27 N.T. books were canonized together, Paul's writing of Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6 both recorded the same thing as what James said. So, there is no conflict teaching between Paul and James on Abraham.
Now back to James chapter 2. Verse 21 to 23 telling us, Abraham's faith was justified through his action being offered his son Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 says, "BY FAITH- Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son."
Throughout chapter 11 of Hebrews talking about Old Testament saints were saved by their faith through what? Through their actions.
What IF Abraham disobeys God for commanded to offer Isaac, what would be happened to Abraham's. Abraham would have been disowned by God, removed him from the promise by disobey. Obivously, this is conditional salvation.
Notice James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."
Too many people among baptists claim, I am already saved by our faith in Christ, nothing worry about our works, long as I am remain always saved till the end, that is called, 'onced saved always saved' - OSAS or, 'security salvation'. Once I believed in it. Now, no longer I believe in it. It is unbiblical.
James 2:25 - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messangers, and had sent them out another way?" Rahab was a Gentile harlot, but she have her faith by obey three spies, sent them escape away, and put red cloth over the window. Hebrews 11:31 -"BY FAITH the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she received the spies with peace." She was saved by her faith, that she sent three spies escape by sneak out of her place, and put red cloth ovee the window. It shows that she was saved by her faith through her ACTION. In other word, what IFRahab won't listen to spies, she could have called soldiers to arrest them, and Israel could not conquer Jecriho, because Joshua could have been waiting and waiting for three spies return back, what IF Rahab reported to soldiers to arrest three spies, Israel could never conquer Jecriho, IF three spies never return back to Joshua's camp. See? My point?
James 2:26 -"For as the body without the spirit is dead , SO faith WITHOUT works is DEAD ALSO." James' point is, our body without spirit is dead, remember, we all have soul and spirit within our body as 'trinity' all go together, once spirit/soul leaves our body, we died immediately. SAME with faith without work, faith is dead also! 'Dead' of James 2:26 is speak of spiritual dead.
So, Christ already know a blind man was saved by his faith - how? By FOLLOW - Luke 18;43. Or, what IF healed blind man stopped follow Christ, then his faith is dead.
Same with John 10:27-29 telling us, Christ have power to hold us, IF we continue follow Christ all the way to the end(Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13).
Christ was right, that He told to a blind man that his faith saved him. Does that mean his salvation was already automatically or being guaranteed at the first he believed in Christ after he was healed? No. He have to be remain to be saved while he continued faith plus follow Christ all the way to the end. So, therefore, Christ already know that man is saved, becauseof his faith and he continued follow Christ all the way to the end.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
To be continued on Craig's book.
I notice in the chapter 5 of page 113, that he explaining of the orders of events. His beliefs on the timing of Christ's coming, sound to me that himself was posttrib. Because, he does not mentioned about 7 years as gathering of the church prior Christ's coming.
Notice #6 in the sixth order of the events, he saying there will be blown of a trumpet, the second advent of Christ takes place. Interesting, his beliefs sound like to me that himself was posttrib, because he believed that we must go through first half, middle, and last half of Daniel 70th week.
Himself, does not claim that he was posttrib. Although, I can see his beliefs on the orders of events. One thing that I agree with him of 8 orders of the events on the end times, that he believed Christ's coming shall be after Daniel 70th week past.
But, he said:
The problem is... Christ does not saying 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Also, remember, Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of the event will be take place at the end of the age(world), because of it context back to Matt. 24:3, clear, disciples asked Christ, what to know what will be happen at the end of the age. Disciples never asking Christ anything about 'millennial kingdom', because they never hear of millennial kingdom. Also, Christ never teaching them of millennial kingdom, neither, he sayings, 'a thousand years' in his three years of ministry on earth throughout the four gospel books.
Craig said"
Many premills do not accept Matt. 25:31-46 is clearly speak of the great white throne, as one final judgement day.
They have a big problem on Matt. 25:31-46, because Christ does not saying 'a thousand years'. Neither, Christ teaching there will be two different judgment days at the end of the age. Christ teaching us very clear theere will be general judgment at Christ's coming, there is only two groups shall face Christ sits on the throne - sheep and goat = believers and unbelievers. Simple and plain, no complex.
Craig made outline of 'Some facts lying mostly on the surface' in page 114-115. Mostly of the 22 lists I do not agree with Craig. I want to talk focus on two of the 22 lists, he said:
I understand Isa. 65:20 vry clear, I have no problem with it. Premills interpreting verse 20, saying there will be flesh people will be live up to 100 years old, and much longer during millennial kingdom, many shall died during millennial kingdom.
Reading Isa. 65:20 please be carefully, there are two parts of verse 20.
First part of verse 20 says: "There shall be NO MORE thence an infant of days, NOR an old man that hath not filled his days:" This is speak of immortality, people shall not be aging anymore, they shall be all change into immortality body - 1 Cor. 15:51-57. Immortality means opposite of mortal or dying. Immortality is an everlasting life, shall never die again. Isa. 65:20a is speak of Rev. 21:4 "...and there shall be NO MORE DEATH..."
Last part of Isa. 65:20 says: "for the child shall die an hundred years old; BUT the sinner being an hundred years(why?-answer-) shall be ACCURSED."
THere are two parts of Isa. 65:20. The first part of verse 20 speaks of believers shall be immortality. The last part of verse 20 speaks of unbelievers or sinners shall died. Notice, it says, "for the child shall die 'an hundred years'". Being die at age 100, does not take into literally or actually exactly age to die. This is speak of limited age, why? Because of SIN. "shall be ACCURSED." Word, 'accursed' means judged. Why does a person shall die being as age 100? Because of a person is judged. Why shall a person died? Because of sin according to Romans 5:12 saying that Adam sinned and he died, so, death passed upon all people of the world, because of sin comes from Adam.
Also, Isa. 65:20 is refer with Isa. 66:24 is speak of sinners shall be punished into everlasting fire, this verse is refer with Mark 9:44,46, & 48.
Isa. 65:17-20 say nothing anything about 'a thousand years'. This passage is speak of future perfect eternality condition also future final destiny places which place for two groups shall go - eternal life or eternal punishment same with Matt. 25:46.
Craig said:
Also, problem for Craig, the context of Matthew 25:31-46 say nothing anything about 'a thousand years', because Christ does not saying it. No way that you can proved Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of so called, "Judgment of Nations" according premil or pretrib's teaching as supposed DURING millennial kingdom, because Christ does not saying, 'a thousand years' in this passage. Matt. 25:31-46 is very clearly speak of judgment seat of Christ/Great White Throne- the only ONE future judgment day at Christ's coming.
In page 117, Craig said:
Craig continued:
I remember about 3 years ago, I was debate with a premill missionary about Matt. 25:31-46. He told me, this passage is different as judgement day, this passage is talking about good works of judgement day. While that time, I was myself securist and amill. Later, I realized, premill missionary was partially correct, that Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of conditional warning at the judgement day. Christ shall judge us, of our works at the judgment seat of Christ/great white throne. We all shall give our answer of our accounts to Christ, what we have done on earth through our works. Verse 37-39 is not just for Jews only, also, apply to all individual of believers both Jews and Gentiles through all ages from Calvary to second advent.
Craig said:
Craig continued discuss of Matt. 25:46, he lists of 6 things, three of the six lists, he said:
No way, that Craig can prove that 'eternal life' is so called, "temporary", the reason is, Christ does not saying , 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Christ clear teaching us, once for all nations shall be gathering together, but spearated them into two groups, sheep on Christ's right side, goats on Christ's left side, as both shall be already set apart them into two groups. all goats shall go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire, all sheep shall have eternal life with Christ on new earth.
Craig saying of 'eternal- so called, 'age-lasting' is synonymous with Messianic Kingdom. The problem is, Christ never saying anything about 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Secondly, Christ never, never saying that "eternal" means 1,000 years.
And finally, no way Craig can prove that goats shall have other opporunity to repent and be saved beyond the judgement of Matt. 25:31-46. Matt. 25:31-46 does not teaching there is another chance for goats to be saved once aftar they face everlasting punishment. Also, Matt. 25:31-46 does NOT teaching purgatory.
Craig said,
I want to telling you soemthing about Jewish nation as what premill teaching. Romans chapter 11 say nothing anything about "nation". The context of chapter 11 speak of two groups - Jews and Gentiles. Unbelieving Jews being cut off from the tree, but remain believing Jews stay on tree, believing Gentiles are added join with believing Jews on the same, so, ALL Israel be saved because of Calvary's result. "Shall be graft back" is not discuss about post-coming of Christ for second chance of salvation. It speak of during lifetime, if anyone either Jew or Gentile decides want to get right with the Lord again and repent of sins, shall grafted back to the tree again.
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I notice in the chapter 5 of page 113, that he explaining of the orders of events. His beliefs on the timing of Christ's coming, sound to me that himself was posttrib. Because, he does not mentioned about 7 years as gathering of the church prior Christ's coming.
Notice #6 in the sixth order of the events, he saying there will be blown of a trumpet, the second advent of Christ takes place. Interesting, his beliefs sound like to me that himself was posttrib, because he believed that we must go through first half, middle, and last half of Daniel 70th week.
Himself, does not claim that he was posttrib. Although, I can see his beliefs on the orders of events. One thing that I agree with him of 8 orders of the events on the end times, that he believed Christ's coming shall be after Daniel 70th week past.
But, he said:
He thinks of Matt. 25:31-46 is NOT the end of the world. He says, it is the end of the 'present' age.
The problem is... Christ does not saying 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Also, remember, Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of the event will be take place at the end of the age(world), because of it context back to Matt. 24:3, clear, disciples asked Christ, what to know what will be happen at the end of the age. Disciples never asking Christ anything about 'millennial kingdom', because they never hear of millennial kingdom. Also, Christ never teaching them of millennial kingdom, neither, he sayings, 'a thousand years' in his three years of ministry on earth throughout the four gospel books.
Craig said"
Craig said of Matt. 25:46 is not the final eternal state. Again, the problem is... the context of Matt. 25:31-46 does not saying anything about 'a thousand years'. No way, that he proved Matt. 25:46 is not a final eternal state. Clearly, Matt. 25:46 says, "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the righteousness into life eternal." No need to looking in Greek word for words- 'everlasting' or 'eternal'. we do not need commentaries, or listening to any theologian to explaining Matt. 25:46. We can easily reading and understand what Christ saying.
Many premills do not accept Matt. 25:31-46 is clearly speak of the great white throne, as one final judgement day.
They have a big problem on Matt. 25:31-46, because Christ does not saying 'a thousand years'. Neither, Christ teaching there will be two different judgment days at the end of the age. Christ teaching us very clear theere will be general judgment at Christ's coming, there is only two groups shall face Christ sits on the throne - sheep and goat = believers and unbelievers. Simple and plain, no complex.
Craig made outline of 'Some facts lying mostly on the surface' in page 114-115. Mostly of the 22 lists I do not agree with Craig. I want to talk focus on two of the 22 lists, he said:
Premills emphasis Isa. 65:20 speaks of future millennial kingdom. The problem is, the context of Isa. 65:17-25 say nothing anything about 'a thousand years'. Notice verse. 17-19 is speak of future eternality perfect condition find referance in Rev. 21:1-4. Isa. 65:17-20 is very, very clear refer with Rev. 21:1-4 talking about future perfect eternality condition that would be follow at Christ's coming at the end of the age.
I understand Isa. 65:20 vry clear, I have no problem with it. Premills interpreting verse 20, saying there will be flesh people will be live up to 100 years old, and much longer during millennial kingdom, many shall died during millennial kingdom.
Reading Isa. 65:20 please be carefully, there are two parts of verse 20.
First part of verse 20 says: "There shall be NO MORE thence an infant of days, NOR an old man that hath not filled his days:" This is speak of immortality, people shall not be aging anymore, they shall be all change into immortality body - 1 Cor. 15:51-57. Immortality means opposite of mortal or dying. Immortality is an everlasting life, shall never die again. Isa. 65:20a is speak of Rev. 21:4 "...and there shall be NO MORE DEATH..."
Last part of Isa. 65:20 says: "for the child shall die an hundred years old; BUT the sinner being an hundred years(why?-answer-) shall be ACCURSED."
THere are two parts of Isa. 65:20. The first part of verse 20 speaks of believers shall be immortality. The last part of verse 20 speaks of unbelievers or sinners shall died. Notice, it says, "for the child shall die 'an hundred years'". Being die at age 100, does not take into literally or actually exactly age to die. This is speak of limited age, why? Because of SIN. "shall be ACCURSED." Word, 'accursed' means judged. Why does a person shall die being as age 100? Because of a person is judged. Why shall a person died? Because of sin according to Romans 5:12 saying that Adam sinned and he died, so, death passed upon all people of the world, because of sin comes from Adam.
Also, Isa. 65:20 is refer with Isa. 66:24 is speak of sinners shall be punished into everlasting fire, this verse is refer with Mark 9:44,46, & 48.
Isa. 65:17-20 say nothing anything about 'a thousand years'. This passage is speak of future perfect eternality condition also future final destiny places which place for two groups shall go - eternal life or eternal punishment same with Matt. 25:46.
Craig said:
Craig's intepreting of Matt. 25:46 is a serious error. The problem for Craig, does Matt. 25:46 saying that goat shall have an opportunity to repent and be saved? None. Notice Matt. 25:46 says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment." I don't care what you use Greek word on word, 'everlasting'. I understand English Bible of Matt. 25:46 in King James Version, -'everlasting punishment' simple mean forever and ever punishment is speak of lake of fire is the final state where all goats shall suffer of Rev. 20:15.
Also, problem for Craig, the context of Matthew 25:31-46 say nothing anything about 'a thousand years', because Christ does not saying it. No way that you can proved Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of so called, "Judgment of Nations" according premil or pretrib's teaching as supposed DURING millennial kingdom, because Christ does not saying, 'a thousand years' in this passage. Matt. 25:31-46 is very clearly speak of judgment seat of Christ/Great White Throne- the only ONE future judgment day at Christ's coming.
In page 117, Craig said:
Craig say of 'sheep' is not part of the body of Christ as church. I consider that Craig's teaching of Matt. 25:37-39 on 'sheep' sounds like as partial rapturism comparing like Watchman Nee's teaching.
Craig continued:
Craig teaches of 'brethren' have double or dual meanings. Christ never saying it. Craig just make-up of his teaching.
I remember about 3 years ago, I was debate with a premill missionary about Matt. 25:31-46. He told me, this passage is different as judgement day, this passage is talking about good works of judgement day. While that time, I was myself securist and amill. Later, I realized, premill missionary was partially correct, that Matt. 25:31-46 is speak of conditional warning at the judgement day. Christ shall judge us, of our works at the judgment seat of Christ/great white throne. We all shall give our answer of our accounts to Christ, what we have done on earth through our works. Verse 37-39 is not just for Jews only, also, apply to all individual of believers both Jews and Gentiles through all ages from Calvary to second advent.
Craig said:
Huh??? Oh yes, all sheep are Christ's brothers, because all sheep shall be already set apart from goats by set them on Christ's right side at His coming.
Craig continued discuss of Matt. 25:46, he lists of 6 things, three of the six lists, he said:
Craig have several problems on his teachings of his own 6 lists on Matt. 25:46.
No way, that Craig can prove that 'eternal life' is so called, "temporary", the reason is, Christ does not saying , 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Christ clear teaching us, once for all nations shall be gathering together, but spearated them into two groups, sheep on Christ's right side, goats on Christ's left side, as both shall be already set apart them into two groups. all goats shall go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire, all sheep shall have eternal life with Christ on new earth.
Craig saying of 'eternal- so called, 'age-lasting' is synonymous with Messianic Kingdom. The problem is, Christ never saying anything about 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46. Secondly, Christ never, never saying that "eternal" means 1,000 years.
And finally, no way Craig can prove that goats shall have other opporunity to repent and be saved beyond the judgement of Matt. 25:31-46. Matt. 25:31-46 does not teaching there is another chance for goats to be saved once aftar they face everlasting punishment. Also, Matt. 25:31-46 does NOT teaching purgatory.
Craig said,
He speak of it as quote from Isaiah chapter 40-66.
I want to telling you soemthing about Jewish nation as what premill teaching. Romans chapter 11 say nothing anything about "nation". The context of chapter 11 speak of two groups - Jews and Gentiles. Unbelieving Jews being cut off from the tree, but remain believing Jews stay on tree, believing Gentiles are added join with believing Jews on the same, so, ALL Israel be saved because of Calvary's result. "Shall be graft back" is not discuss about post-coming of Christ for second chance of salvation. It speak of during lifetime, if anyone either Jew or Gentile decides want to get right with the Lord again and repent of sins, shall grafted back to the tree again.
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
To be continued...
In Chapter 6 talking about the error of Calvinism teaching.
He talks lot about "called" and "chosen".
He taught that 'called' means ALL people who are called are already saved, will go to heaven as 'proof' that they are security salvation. Secondly, he taught, 'chosen' is speak of faithful Christians shall have millennial kingdom as inherit it because of their faithful. His teaching sounds like partial rapturism comparing like Watchman Nee's.
Understand, Christ commanded ALLLL peopple come to repentance, because Christ doe snot want allll people go to perish according 2 Peter 3:9. Why does Christ already know many are called, but few will be suceess? Because He knows most of the who already called, (heard the gospel of Christ, believed in Christ, did repented of sins, did followed Christ- Heb. 6:4-6), but most of them already turn away in their own ways, because of disobedience and rebel against Christ, go in their own ways which lead them on the wide road to destruction - everlasting punishment(hell/lake of fire). Christ already know FEW of them are 'chosen', because of their faithful, and are on the "narrow road, strive all the way toward eternal life, make it - Matt. 7:13-14; and Luke 13:24.
Craig taughts there are divided of believers into two classes - spiritual Christians, carnal Christinas in page 159. Bible never teaching us of two kinds of "just" or "sheep" or "saints". All of these are TRULY 'just', 'righteous', 'sheep', & 'saint' who follow Christ, faithfully serve the Lord, separate from the world, walk Godly. These who NOT truly 'just', 'righteous', 'sheep', 'saint' because they remain in their own ways, walk in the flesh, disobey God. Bible simple teaching us there are only two groups such as "sheep" & "goats" - believers and unbelievers, both who go in either two destiny places - heaven or hell. Very simple and plain.
Craig said:
I would like you to read in Daniel 12:2 describes so very clearly: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to "everlasting life", and to shame and everlasting contempt."
This verse seems speaking of three groups - everlasting life, shame, and punishment according King James Version.
But notice in King James Version of Daniel 12:2 says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Notice, word, 'and' in the last part of verse 2. Notice it is an italic word, that means, it is not appear in Hebrew language or not from Greek while King James Version was translated from Hebrews and Greek language.
The proper saying of Daniel 12:2 says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:2 speaks very clear there is only TWO groups, some shall have eternal life, some shall have eternal punishment. Dan. 12:2 refers with Matt. 25:46; and John 5:29.
Most of them shall be ashamed at Christ's coming in the judgement day, so they shall be send into everlasting punishment (outer darkness) is the lake of fire is called, "second death".
Being naked at the judgement day means, a person who is not walk godly, and remain in wicked, and not ready for Christ's coming, shall be ashamed, will cast into the lake of fire very simple and plain.
Craig teaches, there are two classes or groups of believers, one group who is faithful Christians shall have resurrection body, second class of believers who is not faithful, will NOT have resurrection bodies at Christ's coming. This teaching is same as Gary T. Whipple, Joey Faust, and Watchman Nee too. Thier teaching is serious error.
1 Thess. 4:15-17 & 1 Cor. 15:51-54 are very clear teaching us ALLLLLLLL truly believers' bodies shall all changed into immortality. But, not just for believers only, also, include unjust people shall have their resurrection body too find in John 5:29 says, "...and they have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION of (what?-) damnation." Both just and unjust shall be risen from the graves at Christ's coming of John 5:29.
Yes, everyone both just and unjust shall be immortality at Christ's coming for the purpose of facing the judgment seat of Christ. All unjust who are ashamed and naked, shall be cast into everlasting punishment, they will never, never die while stay in the lake of fire, they shall be dwell in the lake of fire, being tornment or great suffering there forever and ever, no rest for them.
Craig's teaching of two classes of the believers is obivously part of partial rapturism same with Watchman Nee's teaching. I reject partial rapturism, because it is hertic teaching.
I want to telling you about word, 'elect'. Craig discussed on 'elect'. Calvinists & baptists(who are NOT Calvinists or Arminianists either) they teaching that a person is already elect, no matter what happen to them, because are already 'chosen' comparing same with 'elect' that they are already saved at once, no situation or conditional could effect their salvation, that is called, "security salvation", or "perversance of the saints". I disagree with them.
Please read in 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, gave diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall:"
Obivous, this verse is a warning of condition salvation on calling and election.
Christ tells us, EVERYONE who are called(anyone who heard the gospel, believed in Christ, repented of sins, followed Christ), BUT most of them are not elect or chosen, because they fall away, stopped believing, stopped follow Christ.
Notice, Craig used Matt. 24:24 on 'elect'. Didn't you realized that Christ warns us it would be POSSIBLE(opposite of unpossible), that the very elect might be DECEIVED. That means elect might be deceived, IF they believing Satan;s lies by doing miracles, wonders, signs will go to everlasting fire. Even, during great tribulation period. Satan will transform into man or human to be act like as Messiah as Christ. He shall deceived the world, EVEN might deceived the very elect too! - Rev. 13:13. Revelation chapter 13 and 14:9-11 both are very serious warning to us, if anyone who shall worship the beast or received the mark(666) of the beast, will go into everlasting fire! - Rev. 14:9-11.
At the first place, anyone who believed the gospel, believed in Christ, did follow Christ, as they are "called" as they are being sanctifing from the world, as they are 'elect', BUT afterward they stopped believing, stopped follow Christ, then they will be no longer 'elect' or 'chosen', they shall be end up in hell/lake of fire IF they do not endure all the way to the end - Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Heb. 3:6, & 14.
In the next post talking abut the conclusion of Craig's book. To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
In Chapter 6 talking about the error of Calvinism teaching.
He talks lot about "called" and "chosen".
He taught that 'called' means ALL people who are called are already saved, will go to heaven as 'proof' that they are security salvation. Secondly, he taught, 'chosen' is speak of faithful Christians shall have millennial kingdom as inherit it because of their faithful. His teaching sounds like partial rapturism comparing like Watchman Nee's.
Understand, Christ commanded ALLLL peopple come to repentance, because Christ doe snot want allll people go to perish according 2 Peter 3:9. Why does Christ already know many are called, but few will be suceess? Because He knows most of the who already called, (heard the gospel of Christ, believed in Christ, did repented of sins, did followed Christ- Heb. 6:4-6), but most of them already turn away in their own ways, because of disobedience and rebel against Christ, go in their own ways which lead them on the wide road to destruction - everlasting punishment(hell/lake of fire). Christ already know FEW of them are 'chosen', because of their faithful, and are on the "narrow road, strive all the way toward eternal life, make it - Matt. 7:13-14; and Luke 13:24.
Craig taughts there are divided of believers into two classes - spiritual Christians, carnal Christinas in page 159. Bible never teaching us of two kinds of "just" or "sheep" or "saints". All of these are TRULY 'just', 'righteous', 'sheep', & 'saint' who follow Christ, faithfully serve the Lord, separate from the world, walk Godly. These who NOT truly 'just', 'righteous', 'sheep', 'saint' because they remain in their own ways, walk in the flesh, disobey God. Bible simple teaching us there are only two groups such as "sheep" & "goats" - believers and unbelievers, both who go in either two destiny places - heaven or hell. Very simple and plain.
Craig said:
Craig interpreted Luke 14:15-24 and Matthew 22:2-13 in the page 146-147. He intepreted , 'naked' speaks of being ashamed, shall be cast away, but still saved always.
I would like you to read in Daniel 12:2 describes so very clearly: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to "everlasting life", and to shame and everlasting contempt."
This verse seems speaking of three groups - everlasting life, shame, and punishment according King James Version.
But notice in King James Version of Daniel 12:2 says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Notice, word, 'and' in the last part of verse 2. Notice it is an italic word, that means, it is not appear in Hebrew language or not from Greek while King James Version was translated from Hebrews and Greek language.
The proper saying of Daniel 12:2 says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:2 speaks very clear there is only TWO groups, some shall have eternal life, some shall have eternal punishment. Dan. 12:2 refers with Matt. 25:46; and John 5:29.
Most of them shall be ashamed at Christ's coming in the judgement day, so they shall be send into everlasting punishment (outer darkness) is the lake of fire is called, "second death".
Being naked at the judgement day means, a person who is not walk godly, and remain in wicked, and not ready for Christ's coming, shall be ashamed, will cast into the lake of fire very simple and plain.
Craig teaches, there are two classes or groups of believers, one group who is faithful Christians shall have resurrection body, second class of believers who is not faithful, will NOT have resurrection bodies at Christ's coming. This teaching is same as Gary T. Whipple, Joey Faust, and Watchman Nee too. Thier teaching is serious error.
1 Thess. 4:15-17 & 1 Cor. 15:51-54 are very clear teaching us ALLLLLLLL truly believers' bodies shall all changed into immortality. But, not just for believers only, also, include unjust people shall have their resurrection body too find in John 5:29 says, "...and they have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION of (what?-) damnation." Both just and unjust shall be risen from the graves at Christ's coming of John 5:29.
Yes, everyone both just and unjust shall be immortality at Christ's coming for the purpose of facing the judgment seat of Christ. All unjust who are ashamed and naked, shall be cast into everlasting punishment, they will never, never die while stay in the lake of fire, they shall be dwell in the lake of fire, being tornment or great suffering there forever and ever, no rest for them.
Craig's teaching of two classes of the believers is obivously part of partial rapturism same with Watchman Nee's teaching. I reject partial rapturism, because it is hertic teaching.
I want to telling you about word, 'elect'. Craig discussed on 'elect'. Calvinists & baptists(who are NOT Calvinists or Arminianists either) they teaching that a person is already elect, no matter what happen to them, because are already 'chosen' comparing same with 'elect' that they are already saved at once, no situation or conditional could effect their salvation, that is called, "security salvation", or "perversance of the saints". I disagree with them.
Please read in 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, gave diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for IF ye DO these things, ye shall never fall:"
Obivous, this verse is a warning of condition salvation on calling and election.
Christ tells us, EVERYONE who are called(anyone who heard the gospel, believed in Christ, repented of sins, followed Christ), BUT most of them are not elect or chosen, because they fall away, stopped believing, stopped follow Christ.
Notice, Craig used Matt. 24:24 on 'elect'. Didn't you realized that Christ warns us it would be POSSIBLE(opposite of unpossible), that the very elect might be DECEIVED. That means elect might be deceived, IF they believing Satan;s lies by doing miracles, wonders, signs will go to everlasting fire. Even, during great tribulation period. Satan will transform into man or human to be act like as Messiah as Christ. He shall deceived the world, EVEN might deceived the very elect too! - Rev. 13:13. Revelation chapter 13 and 14:9-11 both are very serious warning to us, if anyone who shall worship the beast or received the mark(666) of the beast, will go into everlasting fire! - Rev. 14:9-11.
At the first place, anyone who believed the gospel, believed in Christ, did follow Christ, as they are "called" as they are being sanctifing from the world, as they are 'elect', BUT afterward they stopped believing, stopped follow Christ, then they will be no longer 'elect' or 'chosen', they shall be end up in hell/lake of fire IF they do not endure all the way to the end - Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Heb. 3:6, & 14.
In the next post talking abut the conclusion of Craig's book. To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I have no problem with John 10:11. I understand very clear what John 10:11 talking about. There is no complex about 'sheep' & 'brethren', both are synonmous.
John 10:11 is very clear telling us, Christ died on the cross for the Church, that is true. But not just for the Church, only, also He died for the whole sinners of the world according 1 John 2:2.
Understand, Matt. 25:40 says, "And the King(Christ) shall answer and say unto them(goats), 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Christ's point is, Christ use term, 'brethren' does not limited to Christians or sheep only, also, Christ's point talk to the goats, that Christ shall tell to them, why they do not care his "people" in genrally either rich or poor (either just or unjust persons), that they do not show their love or care them.
Again, Matt. 25:31-46 is very clear teaching us there is only TWO groups of the world, that Christ shall send his angels to gathering them at Christ's coming for the harvest (Matt. 13:29-30, 39-42) - just and unjust: just shall have everlasting life to be WITH the Lord, unjust shall have everlasting punishment to be WITH Satan and fallen angels (Matt. 24:41). Very simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
John 10:11 is very clear telling us, Christ died on the cross for the Church, that is true. But not just for the Church, only, also He died for the whole sinners of the world according 1 John 2:2.
Understand, Matt. 25:40 says, "And the King(Christ) shall answer and say unto them(goats), 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Christ's point is, Christ use term, 'brethren' does not limited to Christians or sheep only, also, Christ's point talk to the goats, that Christ shall tell to them, why they do not care his "people" in genrally either rich or poor (either just or unjust persons), that they do not show their love or care them.
Again, Matt. 25:31-46 is very clear teaching us there is only TWO groups of the world, that Christ shall send his angels to gathering them at Christ's coming for the harvest (Matt. 13:29-30, 39-42) - just and unjust: just shall have everlasting life to be WITH the Lord, unjust shall have everlasting punishment to be WITH Satan and fallen angels (Matt. 24:41). Very simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let's hold on Craig's conclusion of his book for a moment.
I have a good thought...
If you think the teaching of Millennial Exclusion is a sound doctrine form the Bible.
How about the lesson of flood?
Noah preached and warning to people on flood will come and destroy the world. Many people were laughing at him, do not believe the warning of flood. God gave them the oppurinity more time to repentance for 120 years. Even, when after all male & femail of each animals went into the Ark, God leaves the door of Ark opens for 7 days, await for any person repent and come into the Ark for seven days. But, no one came and enter the Ark. So, God shut the door of the Ark. Suddenly rain poured down upon the world. I am sure, no doubt, people might have run toward the Ark and knocking it, beg to enter the Ark. It was too late for them to enter into. There was no more another chance for a person to repent once AFTER rain begun to pour, and killed them. Christ tells us of Matt. 24:37-41, the lesson of the flood, the flood suddenly came upon them, and took them all away so shall be the same at Christ's coming. All unbelievers shall be take away - cast into everlasting fire. There is NO another chance for a person to be repent when after Christ once come to the world after the judgement day.
Craig believes there will be another for goats to repent and be saved AFTER millennial kingdom of Matt. 25:31-46 in the page 116. I do not see find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46 promises for a goat shall have another chance to repent and be saved again beyond the judgment day.
2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, behold TODAY is the salvation, that we must accepted of salvation - now. 'Today' is speak of this present age. We are in this present age. Today is the opporunity for any person to be repent of sins, and accept. 'Today' of 2 Cor. 6:2 have been for near;y 2,000 years since after Christ ascend into the heaven. But the opporunity of salvation of 2 Cor. 6:2 will be finish when Christ and his angels shall come to judge the world.
Also, Heb. 9:27 tells us, ONCE for a person to die, there is NO another chance for a person to repent of sin, because person is ALREADY reserved for the judgement once after a person died.
Bible teaches us, that there was NO person to have another chance of repent or be saved when once after the flood came and took them all. None of them survived from it after the flood occured. ALL of them were killed. Obivous, all of them are now in the hell, already reserved await for the coming judgment day- Great White Throne.
The teaching of millennial exclusion is unbiblical and not a sound doctrine. Millennial Exclusion sounds like 'protestant purgatory' to me. I know Lacy Evans, Newman, Faust, Whipple, etc. do not claim that they teaching 'protestant purgatory'. Because they seem not comfortable to label it, as being compromsing with Catholic's teaching of purgatory. Although, I can easily see Faust and others teaching of Millennial Exclusion is clearly identify, even many baptists of Baptistboard can easily notice it. No way that you can deny this is a clearly of protestant purgatory.
There is no promise for a lazy servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day. Christ clearly telling us, once for a lazy servant cast into it, then a lazy servant shall be struck or trap in it forever and ever.
Same with Lot's day. When God our fire rained upon Sodom and Gorrmah. No one were survived beyond the destruction of Sodom. All of them were punishment. All of them are now in the hell, already reserved await for the coming judgement day, then shall be cast into the lake of fire for everlasting punishment. That's simple and plain.
Bible does not teaching us that, a person shall have another chance to be saved once after died. Because when once for a person already, is already reserved for the judgement day according to Hebrews 9:27.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I have a good thought...
If you think the teaching of Millennial Exclusion is a sound doctrine form the Bible.
How about the lesson of flood?
Noah preached and warning to people on flood will come and destroy the world. Many people were laughing at him, do not believe the warning of flood. God gave them the oppurinity more time to repentance for 120 years. Even, when after all male & femail of each animals went into the Ark, God leaves the door of Ark opens for 7 days, await for any person repent and come into the Ark for seven days. But, no one came and enter the Ark. So, God shut the door of the Ark. Suddenly rain poured down upon the world. I am sure, no doubt, people might have run toward the Ark and knocking it, beg to enter the Ark. It was too late for them to enter into. There was no more another chance for a person to repent once AFTER rain begun to pour, and killed them. Christ tells us of Matt. 24:37-41, the lesson of the flood, the flood suddenly came upon them, and took them all away so shall be the same at Christ's coming. All unbelievers shall be take away - cast into everlasting fire. There is NO another chance for a person to be repent when after Christ once come to the world after the judgement day.
Craig believes there will be another for goats to repent and be saved AFTER millennial kingdom of Matt. 25:31-46 in the page 116. I do not see find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46 promises for a goat shall have another chance to repent and be saved again beyond the judgment day.
2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, behold TODAY is the salvation, that we must accepted of salvation - now. 'Today' is speak of this present age. We are in this present age. Today is the opporunity for any person to be repent of sins, and accept. 'Today' of 2 Cor. 6:2 have been for near;y 2,000 years since after Christ ascend into the heaven. But the opporunity of salvation of 2 Cor. 6:2 will be finish when Christ and his angels shall come to judge the world.
Also, Heb. 9:27 tells us, ONCE for a person to die, there is NO another chance for a person to repent of sin, because person is ALREADY reserved for the judgement once after a person died.
Bible teaches us, that there was NO person to have another chance of repent or be saved when once after the flood came and took them all. None of them survived from it after the flood occured. ALL of them were killed. Obivous, all of them are now in the hell, already reserved await for the coming judgment day- Great White Throne.
The teaching of millennial exclusion is unbiblical and not a sound doctrine. Millennial Exclusion sounds like 'protestant purgatory' to me. I know Lacy Evans, Newman, Faust, Whipple, etc. do not claim that they teaching 'protestant purgatory'. Because they seem not comfortable to label it, as being compromsing with Catholic's teaching of purgatory. Although, I can easily see Faust and others teaching of Millennial Exclusion is clearly identify, even many baptists of Baptistboard can easily notice it. No way that you can deny this is a clearly of protestant purgatory.
There is no promise for a lazy servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day. Christ clearly telling us, once for a lazy servant cast into it, then a lazy servant shall be struck or trap in it forever and ever.
Same with Lot's day. When God our fire rained upon Sodom and Gorrmah. No one were survived beyond the destruction of Sodom. All of them were punishment. All of them are now in the hell, already reserved await for the coming judgement day, then shall be cast into the lake of fire for everlasting punishment. That's simple and plain.
Bible does not teaching us that, a person shall have another chance to be saved once after died. Because when once for a person already, is already reserved for the judgement day according to Hebrews 9:27.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
To be continuing...
Craig closed of his book in the last pages of 172 page. He lists:
Again, I telling you, there is no promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that a lazy servant shall be released out of the outer dakeness beyond after the judgement day. Because Christ once telling to a lazy servant that, servant shall be cast or depart away from the Lord cast into the everlasting fire forever and ever.
You do really a SOLID clear verse as 'proof' in the Bible telling us that there will be another chance for a person to be saved onced after death or the judgement day. Yet, I do not find an evidence verse in the Bible telling us that a person shall be finally released ut of the outer darkness/lake of fire beyond the judgement day.
So, therefore the teaching of Millennial Exclusion is a fallacy and heretic. Sorry to saying it. You have to accept what Christ saying, and many passages in the Bible teaching warnings of conditional which is speak of salvation, not millennial exclusion, also, there is no promise for a person shall be released out of the outer darkeness when once after a person shall be cast into it.
Next post, I will discuss on many verses of 'thousand', verses tell which one is speak of literal or figurative. Because premills always emphasis focus on Rev. 20:2-7 saying it shall be a literal millennial kingdom, because 'a thousand years' say so. I will discuss on these in the next post, it would be long.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Craig closed of his book in the last pages of 172 page. He lists:
I agree 100% with all of these verses as Craig quoted them. Didn't you aware of them are speak with the warnings of conditional about their salvation, not speak of millennial? Because of none of all these verses that Craig quoted them are speak of 'a thousand years'. But warning of their salvation with conditional.
Again, I telling you, there is no promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that a lazy servant shall be released out of the outer dakeness beyond after the judgement day. Because Christ once telling to a lazy servant that, servant shall be cast or depart away from the Lord cast into the everlasting fire forever and ever.
You do really a SOLID clear verse as 'proof' in the Bible telling us that there will be another chance for a person to be saved onced after death or the judgement day. Yet, I do not find an evidence verse in the Bible telling us that a person shall be finally released ut of the outer darkness/lake of fire beyond the judgement day.
So, therefore the teaching of Millennial Exclusion is a fallacy and heretic. Sorry to saying it. You have to accept what Christ saying, and many passages in the Bible teaching warnings of conditional which is speak of salvation, not millennial exclusion, also, there is no promise for a person shall be released out of the outer darkeness when once after a person shall be cast into it.
Next post, I will discuss on many verses of 'thousand', verses tell which one is speak of literal or figurative. Because premills always emphasis focus on Rev. 20:2-7 saying it shall be a literal millennial kingdom, because 'a thousand years' say so. I will discuss on these in the next post, it would be long.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Bartimaeus
New Member
Hey All, I am back from the Windy City and I can see alot has gone on here, some good and some bad. I think my thread was hijacked a couple of times.
SO LET ME SAY THIS:
1. If you want to debate the 1000 yr literal/spiritualization start another thread!
2. If you want to debate any book but Foust's or any other that deals with Kingdom Exclusion, start another thread!
3. If you want to debate OSAS, kindly start another thread!
Thanks ------Bart
SO LET ME SAY THIS:
1. If you want to debate the 1000 yr literal/spiritualization start another thread!
2. If you want to debate any book but Foust's or any other that deals with Kingdom Exclusion, start another thread!
3. If you want to debate OSAS, kindly start another thread!
Thanks ------Bart
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Premills emphasis on Revelation 20:2-7 of 'a thousand years' shall be a literal Messianic Kingdom or Millennial Kingdom. Premills saying that amill deny future literal 1,000 years of Kingdom on earth. That is not true. Amills include me, we believe Christ shall reign on earth as physical and literal by follow at Christ's coming.
Amills and premills interpreting 'a thousand years' of Rev. 20:2-7 differently as what they see.
Often, Faust, Whipple, Evans, Newmans, etc. interpreting. "kingdom of God/heaven" or 'eternal life' either one of them are speak of so called, "Messianic Kingdom" or "Millennial Kingdom". But the problem is, none of all verses saying 'a thousand years'. No way that can prove them are speak of Millennial Kingdom or Messianic Kingdom, because 'a thousand years' is silence.
I would like to discuss on many verses with a word, 'thousand', verses tell which one is literal or figurative, depend on what the grammar or sentence is talking about.
Paul Malcomson from another site, he spoken of John Metcalfe, as what Metcalfe speaks on millennial:
None find anywhere in the Old Testament books show any hint of a verse saying there shall have a 1000 years of earthly kingdom. More often, none of the passages mentioned that wicked shall be survived beyond after the judgment day at the second coming in the Bible.
We have to be realized that the book of Revelation is written filled with symbolic meanings. The book of Revelation is filled of symbolic numbers such as: 2, 3 1/2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 24, 42, 666, 1,000, 1260, 1600, 7000, 144,000, 200,000,000.
We all should be carefully when we study Bible:
Number of passages in the Bible explaining a 1000 year reign = 1
Number of passages in the Bible explaining a 1000 year on this earth = 0
Number of passages uin the Bible explaining a 1000 year of the natural Jews on this earth = 0
Throughout in the Bible from Genesis to Jude of 65 books, none of the passages mentioned of 1000 years which is speak of reigning on this earth.
Premills focus only base on Rev. 20:2-7, because of 'a thousand years' saying so. We as amills do not ignore Rev. 20:2-7. We are 100% agree with Rev. 20:2-7, none of amills would tear Revelation 20 away from the Bible. Both premil and amil intepreting Rev. 20:2-7 differently.
Now I would like to show you many verses on 'thousand', to see what verses saying, which one is literal or figurative.
Deuteronomy 1:10-11 "Whewre Moses is seen speaking to the children of Israel, saying, "The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. (The Lord God of your fathers make you A THOUSAND times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promsied you!)"
'a thousand' of Deut. 1:10-11 does not taking into literal exactly or specifically number, but it shows of the figurative meanings that God give us of multitude blessings, God's blessings unto us is no limited of how many blessings we received them from God.
Psalm 119:72 "The law of thy mouth is better unto me than THOUSANDS of gold and silver." This verse is speaking of God's Word is more richer and worthy than everything of the world's materialism such as money. Gold or Silver means nothing to us. God's Word is better tha thousands or millions of Gold and Silver. God's Word is more powerful than anything of the world's.
Deut. 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant amd mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to A THOUSAND generations." If suppose Deut. 7:9 of 'a thousand generations' takes into a literal exactly numbers of the generations, then that would be about 40,000 years, our humankind history or a planet earth is only 6,000 years old, it is a young planet, not million years according what evolutionism teaching. Deut. 7:9 speaks of God's covenant with many generations, that His promise is no limited to every generations throughout all ages from the creation(beginning) to the end of the age at Christ's coming.
Psalm 119:90 "Thy faithfulness to unto ALL generations." This verse is speak same as Deut. 7:9.
Psalm 89:4 says, "Thy seed will I establish FOR EVER, and build up thy throne to ALL generations." God's covenant is an eternality and it is no limited for all generations.
'A thousand generations' of Deut. 7:9 does not take into literal specifically of the numbers of generations, but it represent of multitude generations throughout all ages from the beginning to the end of age.
Psalm 105:4, 8-10 "Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore...He hath remembered his covenant FOR EVER, the word which he commanded to A THOUSAND generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for AN EVERLASTING COVENANT."
'A thousand generations' of Psa. 105:8 does not take into literal numbers of generations, but its figurative meaning, that God's covenant with multitude generations throughout all ages from the beginning to the end of the age. Also, God's coveant is an eternality. Right now we are under the new covenant, now, Old testament saints are part of the New covenant, because of Calvary already reconciled both O.T. saints and N.T. saints unity together into one, so, the new covenant is an eternality.
When we reading Judges 15:14-16 in the life of samson, he fought with Philistine soldiers with a jawbone. It said: "The Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon jim, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. And he found a new jawbone of an ass(donkey), and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew A THOUSAND men therewith. And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain A THOUSAND men." Does that mean, Samson killed the very exactly numbers of Philsitines with a jawbone of donkey? No, it shows that Samson killed a great numbers of soldiers against him, because he was filled with the Holy Spirit, as He moved Samson fought against them. He might have killed probably 2,000 or 3,000 Philistine soldiers.
When we read and studying Revelation chapter 7. Do we taking '12, 000' tribes of each 12 tribes of israel into a exactly literal numbers total as is '144,000' numbers of Israel? Revelation 7:9-10 explaining more clear on the identify of Rev. 7:1-8, Rev. 7:9-10 says: "I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.' " 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8 represent of all redeemed of the world throughout all ages, either Jew or Gentile who believe in Jesus Christ. Also, Rev. 14:1, ***3,4 describe more clear on the identify of 144,000, whose are they. That they are being redeemed from the world by throught thier faith and testimony for Jesus Christ. That we are so called, 144,000 witness for Jesus Christ. Also, we are Israel according Romans 11:26. As we as Gentiles are now grafted into the Olive Tree join with Jew believing to share with them on the promise of God's covenant.
I better stop now, because this post is already long. I will continue discuss on 'thousand' with verses in the next post.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Amills and premills interpreting 'a thousand years' of Rev. 20:2-7 differently as what they see.
Often, Faust, Whipple, Evans, Newmans, etc. interpreting. "kingdom of God/heaven" or 'eternal life' either one of them are speak of so called, "Messianic Kingdom" or "Millennial Kingdom". But the problem is, none of all verses saying 'a thousand years'. No way that can prove them are speak of Millennial Kingdom or Messianic Kingdom, because 'a thousand years' is silence.
I would like to discuss on many verses with a word, 'thousand', verses tell which one is literal or figurative, depend on what the grammar or sentence is talking about.
Paul Malcomson from another site, he spoken of John Metcalfe, as what Metcalfe speaks on millennial:
in Metcalfe's book - 'Premillennialism Exposed'. Metcalfe's points on 'thousand' make a good sense, no way that they interpreting 'thousand' into literally or exactly/specifically numbers. But, thes eare showing the picture of represent as they are being multituded.
None find anywhere in the Old Testament books show any hint of a verse saying there shall have a 1000 years of earthly kingdom. More often, none of the passages mentioned that wicked shall be survived beyond after the judgment day at the second coming in the Bible.
We have to be realized that the book of Revelation is written filled with symbolic meanings. The book of Revelation is filled of symbolic numbers such as: 2, 3 1/2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 24, 42, 666, 1,000, 1260, 1600, 7000, 144,000, 200,000,000.
We all should be carefully when we study Bible:
Number of passages in the Bible explaining a 1000 year reign = 1
Number of passages in the Bible explaining a 1000 year on this earth = 0
Number of passages uin the Bible explaining a 1000 year of the natural Jews on this earth = 0
Throughout in the Bible from Genesis to Jude of 65 books, none of the passages mentioned of 1000 years which is speak of reigning on this earth.
Premills focus only base on Rev. 20:2-7, because of 'a thousand years' saying so. We as amills do not ignore Rev. 20:2-7. We are 100% agree with Rev. 20:2-7, none of amills would tear Revelation 20 away from the Bible. Both premil and amil intepreting Rev. 20:2-7 differently.
Now I would like to show you many verses on 'thousand', to see what verses saying, which one is literal or figurative.
Deuteronomy 1:10-11 "Whewre Moses is seen speaking to the children of Israel, saying, "The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. (The Lord God of your fathers make you A THOUSAND times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promsied you!)"
'a thousand' of Deut. 1:10-11 does not taking into literal exactly or specifically number, but it shows of the figurative meanings that God give us of multitude blessings, God's blessings unto us is no limited of how many blessings we received them from God.
Psalm 119:72 "The law of thy mouth is better unto me than THOUSANDS of gold and silver." This verse is speaking of God's Word is more richer and worthy than everything of the world's materialism such as money. Gold or Silver means nothing to us. God's Word is better tha thousands or millions of Gold and Silver. God's Word is more powerful than anything of the world's.
Deut. 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant amd mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to A THOUSAND generations." If suppose Deut. 7:9 of 'a thousand generations' takes into a literal exactly numbers of the generations, then that would be about 40,000 years, our humankind history or a planet earth is only 6,000 years old, it is a young planet, not million years according what evolutionism teaching. Deut. 7:9 speaks of God's covenant with many generations, that His promise is no limited to every generations throughout all ages from the creation(beginning) to the end of the age at Christ's coming.
Psalm 119:90 "Thy faithfulness to unto ALL generations." This verse is speak same as Deut. 7:9.
Psalm 89:4 says, "Thy seed will I establish FOR EVER, and build up thy throne to ALL generations." God's covenant is an eternality and it is no limited for all generations.
'A thousand generations' of Deut. 7:9 does not take into literal specifically of the numbers of generations, but it represent of multitude generations throughout all ages from the beginning to the end of age.
Psalm 105:4, 8-10 "Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore...He hath remembered his covenant FOR EVER, the word which he commanded to A THOUSAND generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; and confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for AN EVERLASTING COVENANT."
'A thousand generations' of Psa. 105:8 does not take into literal numbers of generations, but its figurative meaning, that God's covenant with multitude generations throughout all ages from the beginning to the end of the age. Also, God's coveant is an eternality. Right now we are under the new covenant, now, Old testament saints are part of the New covenant, because of Calvary already reconciled both O.T. saints and N.T. saints unity together into one, so, the new covenant is an eternality.
When we reading Judges 15:14-16 in the life of samson, he fought with Philistine soldiers with a jawbone. It said: "The Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon jim, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. And he found a new jawbone of an ass(donkey), and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew A THOUSAND men therewith. And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain A THOUSAND men." Does that mean, Samson killed the very exactly numbers of Philsitines with a jawbone of donkey? No, it shows that Samson killed a great numbers of soldiers against him, because he was filled with the Holy Spirit, as He moved Samson fought against them. He might have killed probably 2,000 or 3,000 Philistine soldiers.
When we read and studying Revelation chapter 7. Do we taking '12, 000' tribes of each 12 tribes of israel into a exactly literal numbers total as is '144,000' numbers of Israel? Revelation 7:9-10 explaining more clear on the identify of Rev. 7:1-8, Rev. 7:9-10 says: "I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.' " 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8 represent of all redeemed of the world throughout all ages, either Jew or Gentile who believe in Jesus Christ. Also, Rev. 14:1, ***3,4 describe more clear on the identify of 144,000, whose are they. That they are being redeemed from the world by throught thier faith and testimony for Jesus Christ. That we are so called, 144,000 witness for Jesus Christ. Also, we are Israel according Romans 11:26. As we as Gentiles are now grafted into the Olive Tree join with Jew believing to share with them on the promise of God's covenant.
I better stop now, because this post is already long. I will continue discuss on 'thousand' with verses in the next post.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Bart,
I do not mean being hijack your post in this topic, also, I did not start this topic, you just bring Faust's book up as you started it. That's why we are discuss on this. Also, James Newman threw 172 pages of Craig's book to me by gave the link of Craig's book, Newman seems want me to read Craig's book. So, I did reading Craig's book. That why I just bring it up from what Craig saying that I do not agree with it.
Also, Millennial Kingdom is PART of salvation issue too. Because Millennial Exclusion teaches that a real or truly Christian shall be cast away into HELL, but for a temporary time. No way that we avoid to discuss on this topic as you brought it up. That why I have so many things that I do not agree with Faust's teaching. I already been reading throughout Faust's book. I already disagree on many things as what Faust teaches. That why we just bring it up on this topic. No, I did not get off the track by being debate on this topic. I am staying discuss on this same topic as what you brought it up for.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I do not mean being hijack your post in this topic, also, I did not start this topic, you just bring Faust's book up as you started it. That's why we are discuss on this. Also, James Newman threw 172 pages of Craig's book to me by gave the link of Craig's book, Newman seems want me to read Craig's book. So, I did reading Craig's book. That why I just bring it up from what Craig saying that I do not agree with it.
Also, Millennial Kingdom is PART of salvation issue too. Because Millennial Exclusion teaches that a real or truly Christian shall be cast away into HELL, but for a temporary time. No way that we avoid to discuss on this topic as you brought it up. That why I have so many things that I do not agree with Faust's teaching. I already been reading throughout Faust's book. I already disagree on many things as what Faust teaches. That why we just bring it up on this topic. No, I did not get off the track by being debate on this topic. I am staying discuss on this same topic as what you brought it up for.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Bartimaeus
New Member
Bro Lacy, (and all who espouse the Kingdom Exclustion doctrine)
Please comment on these verses. These were raised very early in the thread and I ask specific questions that were not addressed.
I Cor 3:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1) Which body is being referenced to in this text? The natural body or the glorified body?
2) What exactly does the word "destroy" mean here?
3) In I Cor 3, when Paul is speaking of a trial of fire, exactly what does he say is to be tried? The works or something else?
Thanks ------Bart
Please comment on these verses. These were raised very early in the thread and I ask specific questions that were not addressed.
I Cor 3:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1) Which body is being referenced to in this text? The natural body or the glorified body?
2) What exactly does the word "destroy" mean here?
3) In I Cor 3, when Paul is speaking of a trial of fire, exactly what does he say is to be tried? The works or something else?
Thanks ------Bart