Baptist Traditions? Drinking alcohol & dancing

[webdog]

Originally posted by bapmom:
LarryN,

To this day there are places all over the world making and distributing wine that contains no alcohol. It is quite common, though probably not here in the States. And yes, its called wine, though it is non-alcoholic. Its a very old, traditional method of winemaking, which I know nothing about.....I only know its there...lol Sorry I don't know more.

So then, LarryN, what I do with that passage is I understand that the word wine does not always mean alcohol.

Wine in Bible was ALWAYS alcoholic, even the "new" wine. The Bible makes a clear distinction between grape juice and wine. Without refrigeration, grape juice automatically begins to ferment. That is why you don't put "new" wine into old wineskins. The old skins are already stretched and does not allow for fermentation expanding. Noah got drunk off of wine, Paul warns us not to be drunk with wine. Jesus tells us the old is better than the new, not that the old is different than the new. The Lord will prepare a feast with the BEST wine for us someday (Is. 25:6). To state that all wine is not alcoholic is reading into the passages what is not there. I find it ironic how man tells God what is sinful, when God says otherwise. In Germany, baptist christians there do not drink coffee for the same reasons we do not drink alcohol: they have been told it is sinful. They have no problem with alcohol, however.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Drunkenness (condemned unilaterally in the Bible) is a sin. Drinking is not. Why? It takes very little alcohol to begin to affect the brain.

It was not until the temperance movement of the final decades of the 1800's that some Christians jumped on the bandwagon of TOTAL abstinance. Of course, there were some in all generations who opted for abstinance.

Rev Welch capitalized on it, pushing his non-alcoholic grape drink to replace wine at communion and became a millionaire.

Baptists ARE "faddists" and it only takes a few preachers pushing some new "standard" and whole groups become lemming-like followers. Happened with theater, music, radio, tv, etc

 

[bapmom]

no webdog, Im telling you that there is a drink made that is NOT just grape juice, is called wine, and is not alcoholic....its called wine even now. Im not talking about the different words used in the Bible for "wine."

I know some is alcoholic, and I know that grape juice is different.

I don't know why this even continues to be a controversy among Christians. Why do we want to live close to the edge?

Personally Ive known alot of addicts and I don't want to get myself down that road.

 

[mioque]

bapmom
In all of Europe the non-christians would be completely amazed that there are 'weirdo' Christians out there avoiding all forms of dancing and any form of drinking alcohol to not become a stumbling block for their sake.

 

[bapmom]

mioque,

ok, thats fine with me. Why is that a point?

Im not abstaining for their sake, Im abstaining for my neighbor's and my children's sake.

I certainly don't claim that "all of Europe" is watching little old me!

Forgive me mioque, if Im taking you wrong, but are you mocking me?

 

[LarryN]

"God is including it in what people of that day sometimes bought with their money."

No, re-read the passage. It ("strong drink") is both preceded and followed by the command imperitive "Thou shalt". It is in this context that spending their money on "strong drink" is granted to be permissible. The Israelites are being told what they can do with the money (including buying "strong drink"); and furthermore tacit approval is given: "and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household".

"And what are you trying to prove? I mean, what is your point?"

My point is that those who purport to take the Bible literally, in its entirety, should not resort to the liberal tactic of simply ignoring or "poo-pooing" those verses or passages of the Bible which they personally don't like or disagree with. Here is a passage of the Bible which not only doesn't speak unfavorably of "strong drink"- it in fact permits its usage.

Just because you or I may have a problem with that (due to our Baptist heritage & its teachings in regards to the use of alcohol) doesn't mean that we can freely deny that the bible says what it does in fact say here. Pretending that this passage doesn't exist, or that it doesn't really mean what it says, is not the proper way to address it.

 

[bapmom]

Thats fine, LarryN.

I think I only ever said that the Bible discourages the drinking of alcohol. I do not believe that I ever claimed that the Bible completely condemns it.

 

[webdog]

bapmom, the problem I have is when we try to say what is sin instead of letting God tell US what is sin. You will not find it in the Bible that wine was anything other than alcoholic. I agree, there are ways to extract alcohol from wine. Were they there in biblical times? I don't know, but the Bible is silent if they were. I will not read into what is not there.

You are correct that there are times to abstain, and when drinking in itself is sinful. If it offends another, or if you are an alcoholic it is sinful. I will not tell my children drinking is sin like my father told me, because it is just not true. I will warn them of the consequences of drunkeness (impairment of judgement, impaired driving), but I will not pass on what has been flasely called a sin.

 

[bapmom]

ok, but why are you guys acting like I said something was sin? I think all I said was that it was unwise.

 

[webdog]

I think I only ever said that the Bible discourages the drinking of alcohol.

This simply is not true. The Bible condemns drunkeness. Two distint differences.

What do you do with the fact that Jesus not only made wine, he made the "best" wine? He tells us the best is the "old", well aged wine, the same wine the Lord will prepare for our feast in Isaiah 25:6.
What do you do with this verse in Luke 7:33-35 (Jesus talking) "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread NOR DRINKING WINE, and you say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man has come eating AND DRINKING, and you say 'Look, a glutton and a WINEBEIBBER (drunk)..." It is clear Jesus never got drunk, as that is sin, but He did drink wine.

 

[mioque]

bapmom
"are you mocking me?"
"
Not you.
When I typed that post my mind wandered and I was thinking about a small scandal involving a baptist church in the Netherlands. They had blindly copied the American baptist attitude towards alcohol (don't ever drink alcohol to avoid being a stumbling block to the Unsaved) without ever considering that it was a meaningless gesture to their neighbours.
They were very surprised to find out that the people living around their churchbuilding despised them.
You see there was this little park with a duckpond next to their church. The room they used for their sundayschool was a bit small. So half the kids would have their lessons during the first half of their churchservice and the other half would have their lessons during the second half of their churchservice. The half that wasn't following lessons would be playing in the park.
Playing meant stoning the ducks to death.

The neighbours never noticed the abstaining from alcohol, but they did notice the dead ducklings.

I wasn't thinking of mocking you, them on the other hand....

 

[LarryN]

Here's another passage in which the "wine" mentioned is clearly alcoholic. What should be most striking to those who believe in total abstinance is its context:

Isaiah 25: 1-8:

1 O Lord, You are my God. I will exalt You, I will praise Your name, For You have done wonderful things; Your counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. 2 For You have made a city a ruin, A fortified city a ruin, A palace of foreigners to be a city no more; It will never be rebuilt. 3 Therefore the strong people will glorify You; The city of the terrible nations will fear You. 4 For You have been a strength to the poor, A strength to the needy in his distress, A refuge from the storm, A shade from the heat; For the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall. 5 You will reduce the noise of aliens, As heat in a dry place; As heat in the shadow of a cloud, The song of the terrible ones will be diminished.

6 And in this mountain The Lord of hosts will make for all people A feast of choice pieces, A feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees. 7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.

Twice, the "wine" is referred to as "wines on the lees". What are "the lees"? The lees are the sedimental by-product of the process of fermentation. To accept what the KJV is saying here is to acknowledge that, prophetically speaking, "The Lord of hosts" will one day serve a feast to his people which will include alcoholic ("well-refined wines on the lees") wines.

 

[RightFromWrong]

I made a meal for a family one time. The wife wanted the recipe and when I told her it had COOKING wine in it she about freaked. LOL

Now that is going to far ! Of course the IFB preacher taught that ALL alcohol was wrong no matter what, and so was dancing. In fact he said in a sermon one time DAVID really wasn't dancing ( as the Bible said he was ) it was something else. Boy he had to think real hard to get around that one.

Glad to say we don't go to those kind of churches anymore. Not that we drink or dance we don't. Just couldn't handle all the negative judgmental preaching. Balanced preaching which rightly divides the word is what we like, and have found very few, if any problems in these kind of churches

 

[RightFromWrong]

RIGHT ON ! webdog

 

[bapmom]

Originally posted by mioque:
bapmom
"are you mocking me?"
"
Not you.
When I typed that post my mind wandered and I was thinking about a small scandal involving a baptist church in the Netherlands. They had blindly copied the American baptist attitude towards alcohol (don't ever drink alcohol to avoid being a stumbling block to the Unsaved) without ever considering that it was a meaningless gesture to their neighbours.
They were very surprised to find out that the people living around their churchbuilding despised them.
You see there was this little park with a duckpond next to their church. The room they used for their sundayschool was a bit small. So half the kids would have their lessons during the first half of their churchservice and the other half would have their lessons during the second half of their churchservice. The half that wasn't following lessons would be playing in the park.
Playing meant stoning the ducks to death.

The neighbours never noticed the abstaining from alcohol, but they did notice the dead ducklings.

I wasn't thinking of mocking you, them on the other hand....

Thank you for explaining, mioque. But don't you think that really the fact that they abstained from alcohol was a side issue in your story? I mean the REASON they despised those folks was because they did not properly supervise the children under their care! I can see why the neighborhood was upset with them, and I can ALSO see that the church people should have had more common sense. I think if that happened here in the States it would create the same reaction in the neighbors here is it did there in the Netherlands.

To the others, I believe that now Im being called judgemental simply because I do NOT drink alcohol, as well as MY preacher and most people in my church. Wouldn't that be YOU judging ME? Ive never said that God would condemn you, Ive never said people were going to Hell because of alcohol! Yet now Im called judgemental....yet YOU, RFW, are judging me....not the other way around.

Interesting.

All Ive said is it gets in the way between the Christian and his God. If you want to discount all IFB churches and make the ridiculous claim that other kinds of churches have almost no problems, Im really sorry you think that way.
There are many vibrant, soul winning, Bible preaching, friendly, warm, and caring IFB churches out there. Im in one of them. Just as there are bad churches in any group, there will be in IFBs as well. But you, RFW, are JUDGING ALL of them based on your experience and based on the fact that you don't like a few things the preacher said. Thats not proper judging.

Thats all I was trying to say.

 

[webdog]

bapmom, it's comments like this that could be portrayed by some as judgemental.

I think all I said was that it was unwise.

Why do we want to live close to the edge?

If a person is continuing in drinking alcohol, I would they are in the least unwise for at least two reasons.

Now, I'm not the smartest person, but if I drink wine or beer, I'm not "unwise". I also don't live "close to the edge", either, by drinking. It's fine to have individual convictions, but they better square with what the Bible has to say on the issue, something many christians don't do when it pertains to drinking and dancing (non seductive).

 

[bapmom]

webdog,


my saying I believe it is unwise is NOT judging any individual person. It is a statement of what I BELIEVE is an unwise activity! If you don't think so thats between God and you. Im not commenting towards you or any other individual.

However, some people in here also have decided that all IFB churches are judgemental and legalistic. How is that not being judgemental themselves?

Also, please remember, Im in Milwaukee, where a HUGE amount of people are enslaved to alcohol and drugs. Billy SUnday gave up after three days here, saying that our city is hopelessly enslaved to alcohol. Granted, that was like 100 years ago, but it hasn't gotten any better. They call this place up here "the graveyard of preachers". We are doing our best here to fight the good fight, to struggle against the enslavement that we see people in all the time.
How can I do otherwise but think that alcohol is an unwise thing to be involved in when its addiction can have such dire consequences?

webdog, please know, I have no problem with you. My problem comes from when Im called judgemental for stating my position (which was asked for) and yet others here can call me (us IFBers) legalistic and judgemental and nothing is said to them either way. This seems typical of this board. The conservative can be "attacked" or harangued, but if we try to stand up for ourselves we are called "judgemental" or mean.

Thats all Im saying.

 

[webdog]

I take your "living close to the edge" comment as meaning "close to carnal living", correct? However you want to spin it, If you like shopping, and I said "those that continue shopping are unwise", would I be considered judging a person solely on their shopping preference? Even if this is what you believe individually, does not make it so, nor does it make it appropriate.

I don't believe all IFB churches are judgemental. Many are legalistic and judgemental (all you have to do is read some of the hardcore posts by some of them). To look down on someone because they don't wear dresses, or wear pants, or go to the beach, or drink alcohol, or dance, or have a tattoo, is judgemental.

 

[bapmom]

ok webdog,

fine.

but to look down on someone because they DON'T drink alcohol or dance or wear pants is just as judgemental!

Why would you assume that I would "look down on someone" for those things? We all do unwise things, and frankly, "continuing shopping" can be a very UNwise thing, too! lol (attempt at humor, just laugh) =)

Seriously, you will find that most of us are no more judgemental in reality than anyone else at any other church coming from the opposite point of view on these issues. Ive been looked down on just as much because of my standards. I try not to look down on anyone else who has different standards. Also, saying an activity is unwise is not judging that person solely on that activity.

Let me say too, people of all stripes come to my church. People with tattoos, wearing shorts, dresses, pants, people who stand outside and have a smoke before church, people who were at a bar the night before......on and on and on.....we are an inner city church, we'd better be able to handle seeing people from all walks of life and accepting them where they are and for who they are.

I know there are some who post hardline positions and sound very harsh, but I bet if you got to know them on a personal, face-to-face basis, most of them would be far gentler in person.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Bapmom you need to chill out.

I NEVER said you being judgmental, I gave an example of someone who was taught by a judgemental pastor which WE have found to be in certain kinds of churches, if you attend this kind of church I am sorry. I have been to mainly 6 kinds of Baptist churches in twenty years. 2 SBC, 2 Conservative and 2 IFB. we have found that FOR US. that the SBC were too liberal, the IFB were to legalistic and the conservative ones were just right, that has been OUR experence.

you have a way of taking peoples experenses and what they say and making them personal. You are very defensive and will only hurt yourself with that attitude.

We also do not drink for the same reasons as you because of our witness and for our children. ( and the fact we can't stand alcohol.)

But I would NEVER say that drinking in itself is a sin. Like Webdog said DRUNKENESS is a SIN !

Eating to much food is a SIN, drinking to much coffee is a SIN, eating to much chocolate is a SIN. any kind of indulgence is a sin. God gave us things to enjoy in moderation, if another Christian has no problem with that liberty, with drinking alcohol in MODERATION, who am I to judge them.
Read ROM chapter 14 real well.