Baptist View on Capitol Punishment

[canadyjd]

Funny, what pacifists see as being clear, many see as a gross misinterpretation of the scripture. That's the sad thing about pacifism.

Not funny at all, from my pov.

What is so sad, IMHO, is those Christians who constantly pronounce their view in the infallible nature of the Word of God that will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid applying the clear teaching of scripture to themselves when they disagree with God's Word.

Such conclusions would be disastrous for our country. It destroys freedom and encourages slavery to evil.

So, if we don't have the death penalty, the country falls apart? If we lock people in prison for life, that encourages slavery to evil? I think you are exaggerating.

Ignoring God's Word encourages enslavement to evil. Let the ungodly put people to death. Let God's own children, indwelt by Holy Spirit and enslaved to Jesus Christ and His cause, show mercy and perfect patience as our Lord demonstrated mercy and perfect patience with Paul.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Canady, your statements are coherent and lucid....You're doing a great job.

Thank you for your kind words.:wavey:

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry, but you cannot equivocate death penalty for "Being a Christian" with the OT death penalty for killing another person.

Logically, that's not gonna fly. Two different issues, and making them the same won't work.

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying.

I am not saying that if you support the death penalty, you are not a Christian. At one time, during my Christian life, I supported the death penalty. Careful study of God's Word has changed my mine.

I am saying, however, that if you are a Christian, you shouldn't support the death penalty because doing so is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ, your Lord and mine.

peace to youraying:

 

[rbell]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying.

I am not saying that if you support the death penalty, you are not a Christian. At one time, during my Christian life, I supported the death penalty. Careful study of God's Word has changed my mine.

I am saying, however, that if you are a Christian, you shouldn't support the death penalty because doing so is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ, your Lord and mine.

peace to youraying:

No, we missed connections...that's not what I understood you to say.

My point: Rome's capital punishment law was in no way Biblical, because it wasn't based on taking the life of one who had taken a life. Thus, it can't be compared to a modern-day support of capital punishment for convicted murderers.

 

[canadyjd]

No, we missed connections...that's not what I understood you to say.

My point: Rome's capital punishment law was in no way Biblical, because it wasn't based on taking the life of one who had taken a life. Thus, it can't be compared to a modern-day support of capital punishment for convicted murderers.

Most of the time, when those who support capital punishment look for biblical support in the N.T., they will point to Romans 13, which speaks of God putting governments into place and giving them the "sword" (BTW, in the context of Roms. 13, the "sword" refers to authority, not C.P.).

I see that is not what you are arguing. You must be arguing from O.T. Law or the passage from Gen. 9. Is that correct?

peace to youraying:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Everyone

This verse should be settled the issue, in the minds of every Bible believing Christian.........
Genesis 9:6
“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”
------------------------------------------
And this was a command before the Law, so the no New Testament statement, changes it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Christians have no mandate to support something that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But we are able to support capital punishment based on the teachings of Jesus Christ found in the Word of God.

Do you suppose those Christians thought the death penalty, implemented by the government of Rome, was "acceptable"?

Nice straw man. First of all, the Bible is clear that God gave governments the authority to carry out capital punishment. However, it's equally clear that governments have the right to apply capital punishment justly, or else they're acting in disobedience to God's word.

In any event, yes, Paul did, given what he said about capital punishement in his letter to the Romans.

Do you think Christians in the 1st century, say about the time Nero lit his garden with a few thousand burning Christians so he could have a night party, do you think those Christians would have supported the death penalty if they had a choice?

Another straw man. Again, the Bible is clear that God gave governments the authority to carry out capital punishment. However, it's equally clear that governments have the right to apply capital punishment justly, or else they're acting in disobedience to God's word.

But I do have to admit that I find it amusing that you keep appealing to what other people believe in a given situation and not what the Bible says.

When the governments around the world turn and begin to kill Christians using the very same type of laws that some Christians now support (and we all know that it will happen since we have read the back of the book, right?), do you think some who once supported the death penalty will see the irony of it all?

You're confusing the Bible's ordaination of the government's authority to carry out capital punishment and the government's responsibility to apply capital punishment rightly.

Please read what the Bible has to say about capital punishment.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Remember, in the early days, men lost their heads, because they were hungry and stole a loaf of bread! Thank God, men gained some sensibility along the way.

True, prison would have sufficed, but that doesn't negate the fact that capital punishment is Biblical and called for in some situations.

 

[kyredneck]

1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. Ro 13

IMO, the passage below is in reference to a brother or sister who commits a capital offense:

If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request. 1 Jn 5:16

Yeah; how many more buildings is Timothy McVeigh going to bomb?

You are spot on. It's been proven that capital punishment does not deter crime (although I do question the validity of those findings as pertaining to the impression made by public executions). The argument/justification for capital punishment lies in incapacitation. They'll never do the crime again.

 

[canadyjd]

But we are able to support capital punishment based on the teachings of Jesus Christ found in the Word of God.

I am ready to be convinced. Please point me to the verses where Jesus told His followers to support the death penalty.

First of all, the Bible is clear that God gave governments the authority to carry out capital punishment....

To give governments authority to do certain things does not mean Christians must support it. God put the current government of the U.S. into place. Abortion is legal, according to the government. Must Christians support abortion? Homosexuality? Divorce? Pornography? Pre-marital relations/living arraignments? Drinking? Smoking? All are legal, according to the government that God put into place.

Christians are called to be different from the world. Let evil, ungodly men be used of God to bring captial punishment.

Let Christians follow scripture and show mercy and perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

But I do have to admit that I find it amusing that you keep appealing to what other people believe in a given situation and not what the Bible says.

I have repeatedly referred to scripture, in context. I have yet to find any pro-death penalty supporters engage those passages of scripture.

Please read what the Bible has to say about capital punishment.

I have, at great length. That is why I have changed my mind to conform to the teachings of scripture.

I have also read, at great length, what scripture says about the attitude that Christians should have toward others, even murderers like Paul, sinners like we were/are before Christ intervened in our lives.

Have you?

peace to youraying:

 

[jaigner]

Castration with a rusty knife breaks the cycle of abuse pretty effectively.

Good use for rusty knives, too.

Sorry, but I've counseled several folks who were abused as kids, that took the higher road. As long as right from wrong is known, then they are utterly without excuse.

It doesn't mean they all will turn out that way. A high percentage of pedophiles were abused as children.

 

[rbell]

It doesn't mean they all will turn out that way. A high percentage of pedophiles were abused as children.

And that statement in no way changes what must be a severe response to reprehensible crimes.

Perhaps we could be a bit more merciful...and use clean knives to castrate pedophiles.

 

[Timsings]

To support the death penalty IS to be pro-life.

This sentiment is unbelievable. It comes right out of George Orwell's 1984. I have a stronger comment that involves certain technical construction terms, but I would be reported. :BangHead:

Tim Reynolds

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I am ready to be convinced. Please point me to the verses where Jesus told His followers to support the death penalty.

Uh oh. Sounds like you're one of those "red letter" heretics.

Before I begin, do you acknowledge two things:

1. That Jesus is God
2. That all scripture is God-breathed

To give governments authority to do certain things does not mean Christians must support it.

Why shouldn't Christians support something God has ordained?

God put the current government of the U.S. into place. Abortion is legal, according to the government. Must Christians support abortion?

As I pointed out before, God grants the government the authority to do certain things, but the government still has a responsibility to use that authority justly. If not, then they are acting outside of God's will for them and Christians are to invoke Acts 5:29.

Homosexuality? Divorce? Pornography? Pre-marital relations/living arraignments? Drinking? Smoking? All are legal, according to the government that God put into place.

Yep. And not one of these things has been ordained by God in scripture, so your statement is a straw man.

Christians are called to be different from the world. Let evil, ungodly men be used of God to bring captial punishment.

Why? If capital punishment is really as unfair as you claim, and the system is as corrupt as you claim, then why wouldn't you want righteous men to oversee it in order to see that it's done fairly and justly?

Let Christians follow scripture and show mercy and perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

Where in the Bible does it tell us that criminals are not to be punished so that we can show them "mercy and perfect patience"?

I have repeatedly referred to scripture, in context.

First, no, the scripture verses you've provided have not always been in context.

Second, the verses you provided do not refute the idea of capital punishment and many of them don't even have anything to do with capital punishment.

I have also read, at great length, what scripture says about the attitude that Christians should have toward others, even murderers like Paul, sinners like we were/are before Christ intervened in our lives.

OK. Since you've read this at great length, please show me the verse that says that Christians are to be against punishing criminals.

Have you?

Yes, I've been studying the scriptures for more than twenty years.

 

[sag38]

Romans 13:1-4
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

 

[canadyjd]

Uh oh. Sounds like you're one of those "red letter" heretics.

Brother, you stated the following:

Originally Posted by JohnDeereFan But we are able to support capital punishment based on the teachings of Jesus Christ found in the Word of God.

You are the one who claimed, specifically, that Jesus Christ taught that capital punishment was to be supported.


Back your statement up with scripture or restate what you really meant.

Before I begin, do you acknowledge two things:

1. That Jesus is God
2. That all scripture is God-breathed

I acknowledge both, and apply it to my life.

Why shouldn't Christians support something God has ordained?

I Tim. 1:16 "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

This passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to Paul (the foremost of all sinners, a murderer) as an example of perfect patience that is to be followed by all future Christians.

Killing someone, or supporting their death, does not show mercy and/or perfect patience.

Why won't Christians, who believe all scripture is "God-breathed", apply this passage of scripture to themselves when it is clearly given directly to them and the context is specifically concerning our attitude toward the worst of sinners, even a murderer like Paul?

Why would Christians, who believe all scripture is "God-breathed", ignore this passage of scripture and embrace a world-view of death... just like nearly every ungodly person on the planet?

Why? If capital punishment is really as unfair as you claim, and the system is as corrupt as you claim, then why wouldn't you want righteous men to oversee it in order to see that it's done fairly and justly?

There are no righteous men. Jesus said the one who is without sin is to cast the first stone. No one is without sin, but God.

Where in the Bible does it tell us that criminals are not to be punished so that we can show them "mercy and perfect patience"?

Again, I haven't said criminals shouldn't be punished. I've said Christians shouldn't support the death penalty.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Castration with a rusty knife breaks the cycle of abuse pretty effectively.

Good use for rusty knives, too.

(and)

Perhaps we could be a bit more merciful...and use clean knives to castrate pedophiles.

I am always amazed by Christains who can so easily say the most brutal of things without a hint of shame.

On the one hand you mock the commandment of our Lord to show mercy, and in the same breath you advocate torture.

Shame on you

peace to youraying:

 

[jaigner]

I am always amazed by Christains who can so easily say the most brutal of things without a hint of shame.

On the one hand you mock the commandment of our Lord to show mercy, and in the same breath you advocate torture.

Shame on you

peace to youraying:

Yes. How can we forget that these criminals bear the image of the holy God? The law is there for a reason, but our first reaction should be one of mercy, grace and peace.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Back your statement up with scripture or restate what you really meant. I acknowledge both, and apply it to my life.

Ex. 21:12 - He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Gen 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Romans 13:1-7 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour [please note the underlined]

And, finally, I would point out to you that when Jesus says to Pilate in John 19:11, "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin", He is referring to Pilate's authority to carry out capital punishement.

I Tim. 1:16 "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

This passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to Paul (the foremost of all sinners, a murderer) as an example of perfect patience that is to be followed by all future Christians.[/quote]

Actually, this is referring to salvation, not to the idea that criminals are not to be punished for their crimes.

Why won't Christians, who believe all scripture is "God-breathed", apply this passage of scripture to themselves when it is clearly given directly to them and the context is specifically concerning our attitude toward the worst of sinners, even a murderer like Paul?

I think we do apply it. I just think we apply it correctly and not to capital punishment.

 

[rbell]

I am always amazed by Christains who can so easily say the most brutal of things without a hint of shame.

On the one hand you mock the commandment of our Lord to show mercy, and in the same breath you advocate torture.

Shame on you

peace to youraying:

Torture? No.

If a person s*x*lly molests a child--what do you want done...give 'em a week at the Hilton?

Recidivism rates are near zero for pedophiles. Castration is effective.

OK, I rescind the "rusty" part. It can be done with anesthesia and in a humane manner. But one forfeits....er.....certain "property" when one molests a child. For that opinion, I offer neither apology nor retraction.
Remember about Christ and the millstone around the neck? I think he looked out for them, too...

And before you pronounce the sentence on me, perhaps you'd like to sit in a session where we try to help a molestation victim put their shattered life back together. My anger is a righteous anger, and many of these cretins are repeat offenders--let out to molest again.

Let's put an end to it. Chop chop. That way, when (not if, but when) they're let out (as they usually are)...we've at least taken a tangiable step so as to assure the chance of success. No, not 100%....but doggone better than the waste of effort we're doing now.