Baptist Views on Drinking

[Robert Snow]

#1: God doesn't need man to tell man what He meant to say. Modern translation: What will some do when a MORE modern translation comes along which disagree with their modern translation?????????

#2: Prov 23:31 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." Be hard 'to look upon it' if its being swallowed. Bottom line is that God is telling man to stay away from it.

I believe if you look at these verses in context, regardless of which translation you use, you will find that it is talking about those who drink for the express purpose of getting drunk.

Almost everywhere I have worked, there have been some people who could not wait to get off work so they could go home and get drunk. They talked about it and even bragged about their intentions. I have had several bosses who would stop on the way home and buy two 16 oz beers just to get them home.

At these same shops many others went home and had one or maybe two beers once or twice a week. There is a difference between these two positions. It's drunkenness that the bible condemns, not drinking.

 

[Havensdad]

I refrain from alcohol for one reason: Prov 23:31 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32: At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder"

All this is saying is that it is not smart (you know, wise) to drink a bunch of fermented wine. Nothing more.

In fact, drinking any alcoholic beverage CANNOT be a sin. Why? Because God has expressly told people to consume it, if they so desire! Something He would never do, if it were sinful.

Ever wonder what we are supposed to do with the "tithe"? Bet no one will ever preach this at a Baptist Church...


Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses
Deu 14:26 and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

The "tithe" was originally to sponsor a big party in honor of the Lord, which included "strong drink"!

Sorry, couldn't resist.:thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

All this is saying is that it is not smart (you know, wise) to drink a bunch of fermented wine. Nothing more.

In fact, drinking any alcoholic beverage CANNOT be a sin. Why? Because God has expressly told people to consume it, if they so desire! Something He would never do, if it were sinful.

Ever wonder what we are supposed to do with the "tithe"? Bet no one will ever preach this at a Baptist Church...


Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses
Deu 14:26 and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

The "tithe" was originally to sponsor a big party in honor of the Lord, which included "strong drink"!

Sorry, couldn't resist.:thumbs:

You are correct. Consider what the ruler of the feast told the bridegroom in Jn 2:

"...Every man setteth on first the good wine; and when men have drunk freely, then that which is worse: thou hast kept the good wine until now...

......the inference being after so much drink they wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyhoo........

 

[Bro K]

Havensdad stated "Because God has expressly told people to consume it"
Please provide verses to support this statement.
The word wine had different meainings and applications. John 2:10 refers to'good wine' and 'worse wine'. Rev 14: 10 talks of "the wine of the wrath of God".

kyredneck...Whats the difference between new wine and worse wine?? I've been told the more wine aged, the better it was. Don't have personal experience in this area.

 

[HAMel]

Deu 14:26, and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Adam Clark's Commentary:

Verse 26. Or for strong drink] What the sikera or strong drink of the Hebrews was, see ACC for Le 10:9*. This one verse sufficiently shows that the Mosaic law made ample provision for the comfort and happiness of the people.

* Verse 9. Do not drink wine nor strong drink] The cabalistical commentator, Baal Hatturim, and others, have supposed, from the introduction of this command here, that Aaron's sons had sinned through excess of wine, and that they had attempted to celebrate the Divine service in a state of inebriation.

Strong drink.-The word rkv shechar, from shachar, to inebriate, signifies any kind of fermented liquors. This is exactly the same prohibition that was given in the case of John Baptist, Lu 1:15: oinon kai sikera ou mh pih. Wine and sikera he shall not drink. Any inebriating liquor, says St. Jerome, (Epist. ad nepot.,) is called sicera, whether made of corn, apples, honey, dates, or other fruit. One of the four prohibited drinks among the Mohammedans in India is called [Arabic] sakar, (see the Hedaya, vol. iv., p. 158,) which signifies inebriating drink in general, but especially date wine or arrack. From the original word probably we have borrowed our term cider or sider, which among us exclusively signifies the fermented juice of apples. See on Lu 1:15.

 

[Bro K]

Do not drink wine nor strong drink]

Emphasizing the word 'nor'; can we say that wine (in this text) is not strong drink???

 

[kyredneck]

...kyredneck...Whats the difference between new wine and worse wine?? I've been told the more wine aged, the better it was. Don't have personal experience in this area.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong; I take new wine to be grape juice yet to be fermented. New wine was put into new wineskins because old wineskins were stretched already and would burst if used to ferment in again.

 

[Bro K]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong; I take new wine to be grape juice yet to be fermented. New wine was put into new wineskins because old wineskins were stretched already and would burst if used to ferment in again.

Sounds good to me. If that true, even I take a sip of NEW wine ever once in while. raying: Hope WE are right; if not, I'll tell Him you snooker me into it.:laugh:

 

[gb93433]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong; I take new wine to be grape juice yet to be fermented. New wine was put into new wineskins because old wineskins were stretched already and would burst if used to ferment in again.

For grape juice to keep during the time of the OT and NT it must have fermented. If it did not ferment then it would rot or turn to vinegar.

 

[gb93433]

Many may treat wine as taboo but not Nyquil and other "medications" with alcohol in them.

 

[TomVols]

I don't drink wine for primarly three reasons:
1. I believe elders are forbidden from alcohol consumption (see 1 Tim 3)
2. Alcohol is not helpful to the health of individuals. No doc I know (and many are not saved) tell you to stay away from booze
3. I couldn't drink if I wanted to. Due to complications from a gallbladder surgery and liver issues, I can't touch the stuff or I'm in deep trouble in the intestines. I can't even have most cough syrups.

 

[Bro K]

For grape juice to keep during the time of the OT and NT it must have fermented. If it did not ferment then it would rot or turn to vinegar.

Does anyone know how long it takes grape juice to turn into an intoxicating wine by natural process??

 

[saturneptune]

I don't drink wine for primarly three reasons:
1. I believe elders are forbidden from alcohol consumption (see 1 Tim 3)
2. Alcohol is not helpful to the health of individuals. No doc I know (and many are not saved) tell you to stay away from booze
3. I couldn't drink if I wanted to. Due to complications from a gallbladder surgery and liver issues, I can't touch the stuff or I'm in deep trouble in the intestines. I can't even have most cough syrups.

I have only seen one exception to number 2. After the bypass surgery, the Dr. told me that one glass of red wine is good for the heart. I believe there are many other things one can do such as exercise, keeping away from stress, and eating a healthy diet.

 

[rbell]

And it's up to the individual .......wins, by a landslide !

I'm not much in favor of voting on morality/decisions involving wise or unwise choices. My position about drinking was explained earlier...but if we get into polling data, then it's not about wisdom or principles anymore. Dangerous precedent.

Now, what about medicinal marijuana ?

Off-topic by a mile. You sure do like to bring it up a bunch, on-topic or not...

 

[Havensdad]

Havensdad stated "Because God has expressly told people to consume it"
Please provide verses to support this statement.
The word wine had different meainings and applications. John 2:10 refers to'good wine' and 'worse wine'. Rev 14: 10 talks of "the wine of the wrath of God".

Didn't say wine. Said strong drink. Perhaps you missed the first part of my post...

Deu 14:26 and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


Do you see that? Need to read it again? God just told the people to take their tithe money, and spend it on alcoholic beverages.

 

[saturneptune]

It seems to me the tone of this whole thread has a mindset of a Pharisee. Everyone wants to look for different angles, shaded meanings, or the original language meanings to justify or not justify drinking. I have two questions for the legalists. First, why are you worried about what someone else does, and two, why don't you let the Holy Spirit in you speak to you and guide your life? That seems much more practical than trying to make a legal case from Scripture out of drinking.

 

[HankD]

Why would it need to be private? If there's nothing wrong with one making that decision for themselves and enjoying alcohol responsibly, then there's no need to hide it.

Probably a reference to

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.​

Basically, here is the principle:​

Matthew 15
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.​

There are other mitigating circumstances, here is one:​

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

HankD​

 

[Bro K]

It seems to me the tone of this whole thread has a mindset of a Pharisee. Everyone wants to look for different angles, shaded meanings, or the original language meanings to justify or not justify drinking. I have two questions for the legalists. First, why are you worried about what someone else does, and two, why don't you let the Holy Spirit in you speak to you and guide your life? That seems much more practical than trying to make a legal case from Scripture out of drinking.

Since Righteousdude2 has asked for our response; let him be the Judge.

Righteuosdude2, what think ye???? Is saturneptune right?????

'saturneptune' is a very interesting name to use. Can you give us any background on it? :godisgood:

 

[saturneptune]

Since Righteousdude2 has asked for our response; let him be the Judge.

Righteuosdude2, what think ye???? Is saturneptune right?????

'saturneptune' is a very interesting name to use. Can you give us any background on it? :godisgood:

Why surely. It is from one of my hobbies astronomy. When I joined the board, I decided saturn would be a good name. Someone had already taken it, so I just added the second planet. I have used it a lot since then. Believe it or not, I have been asked on this board if I thought Saturn or Neptune were dieties or if I worshiped them, no exaggeration.

Just to make my post clear, it was not directed at the author of the thread, but to those about two posts above me.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Does anyone know how long it takes grape juice to turn into an intoxicating wine by natural process??

The impurities (yeast) will begin to change the sugars into alcohol within a couple days if left at room temp.

It past times folks could lower a skin of newly pressed juice into a well and the cool condition would stop rapid fermentation. But it would be a couple weeks instead of days. Such is God's law of nature.

Jews would allow the wine to ferment, getting rid of ALL the yeast. Then strain it carefully and pour it into containers for storage or use. Even then, at the bottom of a container would be some sediment (lees).

Eidersheim, the Jewish historian, wrote that this wine was then "kosher" or yeast-free, unlike fresh grape juice that was full of leaven (think Welchade today). Jews would take this strong wine and dliute it with 3-4 parts water. This purified the water (with the alcohol) and cut down the alcohol content of the daily dinner-table drink to much less than store-bought wine today.

You'd have to drink a tub full to get drunk . . and some did! Most just got acclimated to the small alcohol content and it made no difference. Think of the last time you took nyquil - 10% alcohol - and you felt the burn but no real "buzz"