Baptists and doctrine/eschatology

[rsr]

I really would like the OP to explain exactly which eschatological positions he considers to adopted from the Latin Rite and the Magisterial Reformers. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Jerome]

Weren't the Church of Christ folks originally Baptist?

www.leroygarrett.org/restorationreview/article.htm?rr18_04/rr18_04b.htm&18&4&1976

"Our original founders, the four pillars of our Movement, were all Presbyterians: Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone and Walter Scott. But the masses that came into our ranks during the first generation, 1809-1830, were not Presbyterians but Baptists."

"Hundreds of these Baptist churches....gradually imbibed 'Campbellism', as it was called, until they were no longer considered orthodox Baptist churches, and so they were dubbed 'Reformed Baptists'."

"These 'Reformed Baptists' finally lost all identification as Baptists and became known as 'Disciples of Christ', the name preferred by Alexander Campbell, but also as 'Church of Christ' and 'Christian Church'."

 

[rsr]

"Reformed Baptists," of course, was the label the Campbells used, but only briefly. The Baptists never referred to them as "Reformed Baptists" because they didn't think they needed reforming.

I am of an age that I can remember something verging upon hatred between the two parties, but mostly on the Campbellite side of the equation.

 

[David Kent]

According to what the website stated, the local church autonomy is unfettered by any controlling body. I am not involved with the group, and they may be like some SBC churches which claim autonomy but cling to whatever comes from the convention as if it were directly from God.

Could be. I have never belonged to one that is BU. It says they are congregational so I suppose you are correct.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Reformed Baptists," of course, was the label the Campbells used, but only briefly. The Baptists never referred to them as "Reformed Baptists" because they didn't think they needed reforming.

I am of an age that I can remember something verging upon hatred between the two parties, but mostly on the Campbellite side of the equation.

I have also heard the term "Confessing Baptists."

 

[rsr]

Are you sure you're not confusing the Campbellite "Reformed Baptists" with the modern Calvinistic "Reformed Baptists" aka "Confessional Baptists?"

 

[robycop3]

I've seen some pretewrism in virtually every Christian denom; more in some, less in others. It's kinda like KJVO, infecting most denoms, while more-prevalent in some than in others.

 

[Rebel1]

Could you be a bit more specific as to what doctrines the Baptist adopted that were invented 200-500 years ago?

I'll probably catch flack for this, but here are some: dispensationalism (as a system); futurism and preterism; penal substitution

 

[Rebel1]

It is always dicey to say some biblical doctrine was "invented" 200 or 500 years ago. Trust me, the advocates of whatever doctrine you have in mind will claim they only discovered what was the actual meaning of God's word from its origination. End Times doctrines are usually based on speculation, this means that and therefore XYZ is the revealed truth. The Bible does warn us to not get sidetracked quibbling over non-essentials. The gospel of Christ, His birth, life, instructions, death, and resurrection should be our bread and butter.

Totally agree with your last sentence!

 

[David Kent]

Only the Baptist folks do not have a formal hierarchy in which holds the authority over the local group.

Not exactly true.

The Plymouth Brethren, most of them anyway, don't.
Evangelicals don't. There are some over here who are called United Evangelicals that do, but they were originally called the Peculiar People.


Probably others that I can't think of at present.

 

[David Kent]

Are you sure you're not confusing the Campbellite "Reformed Baptists" with the modern Calvinistic "Reformed Baptists" aka "Confessional Baptists?"

In the past those that now all themselves Reformed Baptists were known as Particular Baptists, or Strict Baptist, or Strict and Particular Baptist. The 'strict' referring to strict, or closed communion.

There is a S&P a few miles from here at Canterbury. It is called Zoar Baptist and looks like a turret in the old city walls. It was originally a water supply for the Canterbury garrison.

Strict Baptists now mostly call themselves Grace Baptists. S&P would mostly be Gospel Standard Baptists.

 

[TCassidy]

dispensationalism (as a system)

I agree. The concept did not start with John Nelson Darby but he did (with Scofield popularizing it) produce the entire systemization.

futurism

I disagree. Futurism, in the form of Chiliasm (ancient pre-millennialism) has been around since the early 2nd century AD.

preterism

Agree. But remember there were hints of preterism as early as the mid 4th century.

penal substitution

I disagree. It has been around a long, long time. Perhaps as early as the early 2nd century.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. The concept did not start with John Nelson Darby but he did (with Scofield popularizing it) produce the entire systemization.

I disagree. Futurism, in the form of Chiliasm (ancient pre-millennialism) has been around since the early 2nd century AD.

Agree. But remember there were hints of preterism as early as the mid 4th century.

I disagree. It has been around a long, long time. Perhaps as early as the early 2nd century.

Yes, as both historical premil and penal substitution can be seen early on in some of the Ecf...

 

[Rebel1]

PSA was unknown in the early church and for 1500 years afterward. It is a perversion of God's character. If I had not discovered early church doctrine many years ago, and only knew about PSA, I wouldn't be a Christian today.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

PSA was unknown in the early church and for 1500 years afterward. It is a perversion of God's character. If I had not discovered early church doctrine many years ago, and only knew about PSA, I wouldn't be a Christian today.

This is entirely wrong.
PSA was very well known to the early Church Fathers and to those who came afterwards, though as with so many things, the truth became distorted as time went by.

 

[Rebel1]

This is entirely wrong.
PSA was very well known to the early Church Fathers and to those who came afterwards, though as with so many things, the truth became distorted as time went by.

Not going to argue with you. I have posted incontrovertible evidence that PSA was unknown in the church until the Magisterial Reformers introduced it.

If anyone doubts that, just do some research.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not going to argue with you. I have posted incontrovertible evidence that PSA was unknown in the church until the Magisterial Reformers introduced it.

If anyone doubts that, just do some research.

Fascinating! Where have you posted this 'incontrovertible evidence? I seem to have missed it.

 

[Rebel1]

Fascinating! Where have you posted this 'incontrovertible evidence? I seem to have missed it.

Many places, in my past times here. Look, you will not change my mind, and I am not seeking to change yours. I found the truth decades ago, and it saved me for Christianity. I do not desire to argue about this.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Many places, in my past times here. Look, you will not change my mind, and I am not seeking to change yours. I found the truth decades ago, and it saved me for Christianity. I do not desire to argue about this.

Right. This makes for a great discussion forum.

 

[Rebel1]

Right. This makes for a great discussion forum.

It's just that I am beyond arguing, since February of this year. And I have had unpleasant experiences on forums. Besides, I think loving God and our fellow human beings is more important than what we think.

I have always enjoyed discussion, but many times on forums it turns into something nasty and personal.